![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cahnLast post, we had (among other things) Danish kings and their favorites; Louis XIV and Philippe d'Orléans; reviews of a very shippy book about Katte, a bad Jacobite novel, and a great book about clothing; a fic about Émilie du Châtelet and Voltaire; and a review of a set of entertaining Youtube history videos about Frederick the Great.
Prinzsorgenfrei update
Date: 2023-03-25 12:00 am (UTC)In return, they have a question for salon, related to the undergrad thesis they're writing:
I vaguely recall a quote from a letter from Fritz to Wilhelmine around the time of FW's death where he says something about not really knowing how to feel about the approaching end of his life...?
It rings a bell, but I haven't read the Fritz/Wilhelmine correspondence. Help?
Re: Prinzsorgenfrei update
Date: 2023-03-25 10:18 am (UTC)*checks the letters available at our library*
Okay, this particular quote isn't in them. Some others are which convey a similar sentiment, though. The letter from April 10th 1740 says:
I do not understand how it is possible to have such a strong desire to come here under the current circumstances. The King, in truth, is very bad; but, my very dear sister, it is a life in Berlin which in no way suits you. You will do as you please, but if you come and repent, don't take it out on me. I warn you of everything, I could not do more. It has been eight years since you have been in this country, and that perhaps has erased from your memory the thousand trifles which two days in Berlin would bring back to you, at your expense. I say like the scripture: Happy are the absent, or those who do not know what is going on, because often we cry: Oh mountains, fall on our head! Oh rocks, crush us! To this, I add a reason which seems to me to suffice for you to delay your trip; it is that the disease drags on, and if you have such a great desire to see me, you will always be satisfied on that account. I leave the day after tomorrow to return to the galley. Do not fear anything, neither for the constancy of the Queen, nor for my stoicism; we will not deny each other, and you will see what will happen.
In the next letter, dated May 3rd, he says: The symptoms are getting worse, and we are only counting by the month, or to put it more precisely, by the weeks. With gusto, I inhale liberty; it might be a very long time until I get to exhale it again.
Then there's just one more brief letter from Trier, and then there's the death announcement saying FW died "with angelic firmness and without too much pain".
Re: Prinzsorgenfrei update
Date: 2023-03-25 10:22 pm (UTC)What you say about death is very true. One can hardly think with joy of the complete destruction of his being, and whoever says he does, feels the secret contradiction in his heart. All one can do is use the time and, when the last hour has come, die in a good manner.
I am also here to pass on an exchange from my emails with Prinzsorgenfrei:
Mildred: I don't really do tumblr, but I was looking through yours recently and saw something about a letter that shows our Katte had an interest in Karl XII of Sweden?? Tell me/salon more? :D
Prinzsorgenfrei: The Karl XII thing is from the Martin von Katte text on Katte's time in Glaucha! I can't quote it verbatim, but it said that Katte was very interested in Karl from maybe around age 10 and got a miniature painting of him in his teens that he kept (possibly around his neck??) until his death. I have NO clue what the source for that is, but the image of 14-year-old Katte finding out about the early death of his Idol (who was on the opposing side in the current war, but shhh) while at school is incredibly funny to me. What a nerd. He also played the flute in a quartet while in Glaucha! And shared his room with Ingersleben and some Scot called Carmichael. And may have lost a chunk of his money to being bad at Latin (at first, he got pretty good later, apparently).
Mildred: OMG that's awesome! I wonder what Hans Heinrich thought of all this...I do remember 3-year-old Fritz saying he wanted to go to war with Dad and kill the king of Sweden with a big cannon. Did not know that was the same time as Katte was carrying around a painting of the king of Sweden!
*
This is all reminding me that amongst my many things to do is finish reading Voltaire's life of Karl XII, read Fritz's essay on Karl XII, and read what Catt says Fritz said about Karl XII, because I remember Catt talking about it, only Karl XII was only a name to me back when I read Catt, and I should reread it now!
So much to read (preferably in French), so little time...
Re: Prinzsorgenfrei update
Date: 2023-03-28 05:30 pm (UTC)- Carl Ernst was buried in the same vault (5) of the Parochialkirche as his mother, as we expected. What I did not expect was that the burial cost was the same in 1822 as in 1791: 60 Taler.
- I don't know if I mentioned this, but Ariane is "Oriane" in both her death record and her baptism record.
- Carl Ernst died of "exhaustion," age 79. I can't remember which of my ancestors died of "exhaustion," if it was the great-great-grandmother who oral history said died of drinking unpasteurized milk, but I remember my mother aka the family genealogist saying, "Yeah, that just means the doctors had no idea."
- Friedrich Ludwig, the son who died age 19, has a very difficult-to-read burial record, but as far as our scribe can tell, was temporarily buried in the Culmann family's hereditary burial site (but we can't read "Culmann" well enough to tell if that's definitely the name). We assume he was later moved to be near his father.
I've contacted the museum to see if they can tell me if Peter and/or Friedrich Ludwig's burials are still to be found there. I'll update if I hear back from the museum.
Keith baptismal ages
Date: 2023-03-29 12:54 pm (UTC)Carl Ernst was baptized November 29, 1743 (according to a biographical dictionary), and died at 1 am on October 20, 1822 at the age of 79 (according to his burial record). If his burial record is correct about his age at time of death, he must have been at least a month old when he was baptized.
Likewise, Ariane was baptized March 23, 1721 (according to her baptism record) and died October 7, 1791, age 71 (both according to her burial record). If her burial record is correct about her age, she must have been at least 5 months old when she was baptized.
Friedrich Ludwig, you may remember, was baptized only 1 day old, at home (instead of at church) because of illness, and Peter Keith sent the letter to Fritz asking him about being godfather 2 days after the baptism had already happened. And we were wondering if that was normal practice.
Well, I know that in France, at least according to Horowski, it was normal *not* to baptize kids right away. Despite infant mortality, for some reason. And if the death records can be trusted, Ariane and Carl Ernst were not baptized right away. Now, what with my mother being the family genealogist, I grew up inundated in "You can't trust these records completely!", but it also seems unlikely that both are wrong in the same way. I think maybe they were baptized in their first year of life, but not in the first few days.
So I'm thinking maybe Peter and Ariane's plan with their second child was to wait to see if the kid survived birth, then bother busy Fritz with a letter, hopefully get permission to list Fritz as godfather, then baptize the kid once they knew. Then those plans had to be changed on short notice because it looked like the kid might die.
Given that we have the cause of death for Peter, Ariane, and Carl Ernst, I really wish we had it for Friedrich Ludwig! That would allow me to take a guess as to whether he was sickly his whole life, or if he just got smallpox or died in a duel or something unrelated.
Poor Ariane in any case: losing her husband young-ish and then her son. :( But being a researcher hundreds of years later is fun.
Getting other people to do research for me
Date: 2023-03-29 04:42 pm (UTC)Still no word from the Wust historian who Prinzsorgenfrei told me to ask about getting Maria von Katte's email address to see if she'll share a copy of the typescript of Martin von Katte's manuscript, *but*, Prinzsorgenfrei says the Wust people like her, and she has promised to put in a good word for me when she's there in early May.
In more successful news, I contacted someone I went to grad school with who's a native speaker of French and has worked with manuscripts, and she has agreed to help transcribe the 6-line note to Peter Keith from Fritz's minister/secretary. Hopefully she can get the whole thing for us.
I'm getting much closer to having a Peter Keith essay I'm ready to show people!
Narrowing in on Peter Keith's grave
Date: 2023-03-29 05:14 pm (UTC)After I gave them the exact quote from the burial record Prinzsorgenfrei transcribed, they wrote back:
In view of the statement you found "St. Nicolai in dem Erbbegräbnis beygesezet word." it seems to me then that Keith - which was not unusual - was co-buried in a hereditary burial (of a relative?) or that he "bought into" a quasi abandoned family tomb. Inherited tombs of families, where at some point no heir grew up or was available, were simply "advertised" again (=sold), because the sale of burial chapels and other inherited tombs served the maintenance of the entire church, especially since the owners of burial chapels had to maintain, for example, the windows and roof above.
However, it is not uncommon that burial chapels were occupied more than once or by other people. I have never heard or read about a hereditary burial of Keith.
That makes so much sense! I had actually been really surprised they had bought a whole new Keith hereditary burial place, based on their income and small family (and the fact that I could find no record of same). Buying into an existing family's hereditary burial makes so much more sense! I am now emailing back and forth with Prinzsorgenfrei and the museum people seeing if we can figure out which family the Keiths were put with, Culmann or otherwise.
- Royal Research Coordinator
ETA: You guys are BACK on the hook for picture-taking! (But not yet, because Prinzsorgenfrei and I are still trying to figure out whether this was a temporary or permanent burial site for Friedrich Ludwig, and thus whether it's likely Peter was put there too.)
Per the museum guy, whom I am liking more and more:
The Culemann Chapel is especially important for us, because medieval wall paintings from the (catholic) time have been preserved here, when this chapel was still used liturgically.
But as a baroque hereditary burial place it was established around 1746 for the Privy Councillor Wilhelm Heinrich Culemann (1677-1746) and his wife Helena Christina, née von Kupner (born 1696).
There is no mention of a co-burial in my literature, but such a thing is not excluded - whether temporarily or permanently.
I have to run soon, but so far this is what I've found as far as pictures of those medieval paintings he was talking about: https://jorgbreitenfeldt.com/portfolio/die-grabkappelle-culemann-der-nikolaikirche-in-berlin-mitte/
Son of ETA: After re-reviewing the record, Prinzsorgenfrei is inclined to agree with my first reading that the Culemann hereditary burial is the permanent burying place, and the word we can't read is probably the temporary place. At least I hope so, since we can't read it!
Now, it's entirely possible that for cost reasons, Peter and Friedrich Ludwig were buried in the hereditary burial place of two different families. However, I'm going to assume that they would have tried to put young Friedrich Ludwig near his father, so until further notice, I'm guessing Peter is in the Culemann Chapel with the Gothic murals.
Which means, until further notice, the next salon-goer to visit Berlin and take pictures of this chapel will earn my undying gratitude!
...Wait, the museum guy just volunteered to take pictures for me. !!! My inbox is a very exciting place today.
Wow, he's stepping down as curator of the Nicolaikirche day after tomorrow, but "we can of course stay in touch on your questions!"
I am so lucky. :DDD Selena, can you read me these 20 books? Felis, can you tell me every time you run into anything that mentions Peter? Cahn, can you use your FamilySearch account to turn up burial records for me? Prinzsorgenfrei, can you transcribe these handwritten documents? Colleague from grad school, can you transcribe this note in French for me? Museum curator, can you help me figure out where Peter is buried and then offer to take pictures for me?
The trick to doing historical research as an amateur is apparently just to ask for lots of favors and coordinate the results! (I've been emailing back and forth between the curator and Prinzsorgenfrei all day, telling the curator what P said and vice versa.)
We'll see if he manages to get me photos before he goes on post-retirement vacation, and then I will update on what, if any, photo requests to salon remain. :D (I'm not going to ask him for 45 pictures of everything from every angle like
I've gone from being an American scholar "studying" the Katte family to an American scholar actually studying the Keith family, no irony or straight face needed!
Re: Narrowing in on Peter Keith's grave
Date: 2023-03-31 03:39 pm (UTC)Re: Narrowing in on Peter Keith's grave
Date: 2023-03-31 05:11 pm (UTC)I hope your trip allows you time to enjoy the museum properly too, it looks great. :D
I would also not say no to a picture of the Nicolaihaus at Brüderstraße 13, if you can fit that in. Even just the front of the building from the street if you don't have time to go in and explore. I do know what the outside looks like, but if I ever publish and the publisher's game for including images, I'll need a picture that I have permission to use.
The Nikolaikirche and Nicolaihaus are 800 meters apart, across the Spree, so hopefully this isn't too much to ask. If you're too pressed for time, no worries, the Culemann Chapel is all I really need.
<3
Re: Narrowing in on Peter Keith's grave
Date: 2023-03-31 06:22 pm (UTC)- He talked to the art restorer of the chapel and forwarded me two pictures showing the crypt doors.
- Art restorer will send better-quality ones with permission to use them for publication if and when I provide details about the intended publication.
- There aren't separate "graves" per se, just the coffins all held together underground in a single burying space beneath the chapel.
- They actually survived WWII pretty well, but after the church was bombed and abandoned, the crypt was exposed to weather and graverobbers/souvenir hunters.
- By the time restoration started circa 1980, there was very little left, just some unidentifiable bones.
- Outside of the burial records
- I have his personal email and instructions not to hesitate to keep asking him questions even now that he's retired.
Wow. This is awesome! I think I'm going to go ask him more questions. :D
Oh, and we're on a first-name basis now.
Also, as expected, I only got 2 pics, so I will still be utterly grateful for any more pictures showing the chapel,
Oh. And now that I know we have one large burying space beneath the chapel with a bunch of coffins, I'm even *more* inclined to think Peter and Friedrich Ludwig are both there: there was surely lots of space. Especially since the Culeman Chapel was brand-new qua burying space in 1746. There's still a scenario, of course, in which Peter was put with a different family in 1757, and it filled up, and Friedrich Ludwig took a spot in a new one in 1764...but we're never going to know, and we do know where 19-yo Friedrich Ludwig was buried, so the Culemann Chapel is still the best spot to pay respects to Peter's remains. (The Tiergarten and Nicolaihaus remain the best spots to pay respects to his life.)
Re: Getting other people to do research for me
Date: 2023-04-01 08:09 pm (UTC)Update: she was able to read the note and will get us a transcription when she's back from a business trip, but the one line in Fritz's (I assume) handwriting scribbled in the margin is stumping her too! *lolsob* She says she has a trusted colleague she'll touch base with, since this is for publication, but requested more samples of Fritz's handwriting for comparison, since only having a few words is as much of an obstacle to her as it has been to me and Prinzsorgenfrei.
I've sent her the letter from Hedwig Suhm which has two illegibly scrawled marginalia that appear to be in the same hand, and one of the letters from Fritz to Wilhelmine from the Italy travel website, which is legible and not helpful at all to me, as the characters are formed completely differently. Hopefully she and her trusted colleague get more out of this than I have!
Sheesh, Fritz. :P
More Peter Keith findings
Date: 2023-04-08 02:17 pm (UTC)Good news: I have found the archives that have the most (afaict) Keith family papers! There's a bunch of stuff in the Niedersachsen Archives, presumably because Peter married into the Knyphausen family, and the Knyphausens were an East Frisian family in origin. I found this because one 19th century volume prints a single letter from Fritz to Peter that we hadn't found yet. Nothing terribly interesting in that letter (I will post details in salon), but the volume in question pointed me to the Niedersachsen Archives. The online catalogue contains such exciting descriptions as:
1. Papiere zur Familie von Keith
Enthält: u.a. Nachlaß des Feldmarschalls von Keith und des Oberstleutnants und Akademiedirektors von Keith 1757 - 1774
My note: That has to be academy curator, but since I've seen him called a Generalleutnant (lol) elsewhere, I still think it's probably our Peter. 1757 is just in time to be his Nachlaß, since he died Dec 27, 1756, and the papers could have been put in a bundle marked 1757 when they changed hands.
2. Der Nachlaß des Freiherrn Karl Ernst Reinhard von Keith
1764 - 1823
My note: I care less about Karl Ernst (Peter's son), but he might have inherited some stuff that he kept. What I really want are Peter's memoirs, if they still exist! I bet Kloosterhuis didn't check these archives, he was researching Katte and had no reason to!
3. Familiennachrichten, Bestallungen, Korrespondenzen, Rechnungssachen, Kuriosa usw. zur Familie von Keith
Enthält: u.a. Verfügungen Friedrichs des Großen an den Oberstleutnant und den Legationsrat von Keith 1729 - 1774
My note: 1729?!! Is there any chance that the note that Karl Ernst talks about, in which Crown Prince Fritz promised to reward Peter, which Peter carried with him for 10 years and pissed Fritz off by showing him in 1740, still survives?? Could it be possible we could turn it up?? Even if not, literally anything from 1729 would be amazing. We have so little, because so much got destroyed in 1730.
Bad news: It doesn't seem I can order digital copies of these documents, only request to visit in person. The Niedersaschen archives are not American-friendly like the Prussian archives! :'D (The Saxon archives, which I turned up last week, are semi-American-friendly, in that I haven't found the ability to place orders, but significant portions are digitized and freely available.)
Good news(?): I think this archive is in the same quadrant of Germany as you! It's in Aurich, and I can't find it now but I seem to recall you saying you were at least in northwest Germany?
Bad news: You are really busy! Also possibly moving to Potsdam later this year? (That's really good news for the rest of our fandom purposes, but not for the specific purpose of the Niedersachsen Archiv. :'D)
Other bad news: the specific collections I want to access are restricted (curses!), and I would have to apparently jump through hoops to see if they'll give me permission, it's not a matter of straightforward ordering.
Is it worth my time to try to get permission for you to view these materials on my behalf? Could you conceivably play research assistant and visit Aurich (at a time of your choosing)? Say, if I covered travel costs and gave you some compensation for your time and expertise? On a scale of 1-10, how excited are you by this finding? ;)
We shall see what
Re the letter I refer to, it's very business-like, but here it is:
J'ai vu par la lettre que vous m'avez fait le 18. de ce mois que la terre de la Britz a été vendue, et je suis bien satisfait qu'elle ait été conservée à la famille de Knyphausen, et que ce soit le conseiller d'ambassade qui en ait fait l'acquisition. Sur ce. etc.
Potsdam le 21 Decembre 1753
Now, Britz I recognize from my Peter research.
Remember the box of money Fritz gave Peter in 1750? That was supposedly for his mother-in-law, the Baroness von Knyphausen? According to Hanway, this was all an elaborate pretense to give Peter money, but officially the gift was to compensate for some trivial damage that had been done to her lawns when Fritz staged a mock battle there as part of the carousel. The lawns in question were on her estate of Britz, which is just outside Berlin (of the time--now in Berlin).
The Baroness died in 1751, and she must have left it to Ariane and Peter. In 1753, they sold it. Now, the internet tells me in multiple places that they had sold it to Hertzberg, whom we have encountered before, and who had just married to Ariane's sister Hyma Maria in 1752. Hertzberg is buried in the church there.
The 1877 volume in which I found this letter, says they sold it to Ariane's brother Dodo Heinrich, who, you may recall, was the guy Fritz sent to London as an ambassador when the Seven Years' War broke out (remember that he had refused to send Peter about 10 years earlier and just left a secretary).
I suspect Hertzberg is correct, but it's just possible that it changed hands again within the Knyphausen family.
In any case, Fritz and Peter at least had some more business contact, and also, re that letter to Fritz about the bridges in Berlin that
ETA: Prinzsorgenfrei has come through, not only offering to go to the archive (time and permission permitting), but has volunteered useful information on tracking down who to contact for permission! Now I'm off to see if I can get the Knyphausens to give me permission to view the documents.