Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 39

[cahn]

Last post, along with the usual 18th-century suspects, included the Ottonians; changing ideas of conception and women's sexual pleasure; Isabella of Parma (the one who fell in love, and vice versa, with her husband's sister); Henry IV and Bertha (and Henry's second wife divorcing him for "unspeakable sexual acts"). (Okay, Isabella of Parma was 18th century.)

Comments

Re: Leopold II

[mildred_of_midgard]

Wait, so, how did he get around the censor??

I'm not sure, but in totalitarian states, getting around censors is a thing. Voltaire and the other French philosophes got around theirs by having their stuff printed in the Netherlands and Switzerland and then smuggled over the border into France. At one point, someone in Tuscany (the place I've been reading about) was congratulated for getting his books on the Index, because getting banned immediately made people more interested and illicit copies would sell like hotcakes.

So whether Leopold used his authority to say, "No, print this one," or used the usual sneaky methods, I'm sure that as a monarch, he had options. ;)

And also am I understanding this that he can't talk to the lower classes himself, but it's okay if they come to talk to him? Why is it okay for the the peasants to foment revolution and not him?

Probably a few reasons.

Let's be clear: the nobles aren't going to be delighted by the peasants fomenting revolution either. But if they're surrounded by the people below and the guy above agreeing on a revolution, it's got to be harder for them to resist, than if it's just Leopold on his own. So, one, Leopold needs an ally.

Two, if you want your lower classes to participate in representative government, you should probably...make sure they're planning to participate? Enforcing democracy because you think it's the right thing to do does not always end well. *cough*

Three, it's probably better optics for Leopold if he's responding to the wishes and complaints of his subjects, of whom he is the ruler and whose well-being he is responsible for, than if he's just trying to fight his nobles, which is usually done for autocratic reasons. A king-people alliance against nobles plays out again and again in the history of Europe in the battle, not for democracy vs. oligarchy, but for monarchy/totalitarianism vs. oligarchy.

Four, Leopold's predecessor is Joseph. He went and talked to peasants, decided what was best based on what they wanted, and rammed a bunch of authoritarian, anti-nobility reforms down everyone's throats. So basically what I said in point three: a king-peasant alliance looks like autocracy and is usually done for that reason. And I imagine Leopold going, "Whatever Joseph did, don't do that--it didn't work!"

So I think what Leopold wants is the good PR of responding to popular demand for representative government by people who want representative government, and he wants said people prepared to back him on his reforms in an organized manner and to actually participate. It fits with his leadership style of "Lay the groundwork first, then make your move," vs. Joseph's "Decide what you want, then make your move, we don't need no stinkin' groundwork." :P

Okay, that makes me both feel better about him and seems like it makes a little more sense overall (given that even if he didn't have an overtly emotional relationship with her, I would have assumed that family ties were treated as important!)

I have to note that there are also sound realpolitik reasons at play here. As long as Louis XVI was in France, he's been agreeing to the assemblies, reforms, constitutions, etc. Once he's in Belgium, he can announce to Europe that he did so only under duress, and Leopold can help out a victimized fellow monarch who's asking for help. It's the same reason he tried very hard to make his planned war with France look like a defensive war and not an offensive war.

If Leopold had attacked while Louis was agreeing to all the changes, then it looks like Leopold's high-handedly interfering in the self-determination of another country. Once the flight to Varennes fails, of course, it becomes more obvious that Louis is a prisoner needing rescue, so the PR if Leopold invades isn't as bad.

Of course, the European powers underestimate the French resistance, and their heavy-handed threats plus MA's conspiring with them combine to make MA very unpopular as well as make the risks of executing the monarchs lower, i.e. "If we're going to get invaded no matter what we do, we might as well execute the traitors amongst us," and things went from bad to worse. But Leopold was bled 4 times in 4 days a few months before Louis' execution and a year and a half before MA's, so he fortunately never lived to see it. :/

SIXTEEN?

Sixteen! MT also had sixteen, and Leopold's sister Maria Carolina of Naples would like to point out that SHE had seventeen, albeit with a lower survival rate.

Childhood survival rates, taking age 18 rather arbitrarily as the cutoff:

MT: 11 out of 16
Maria Luisa (Leopold's wife): 14 out of 16
Maria Carolina: 6 out of 17
FW and SD: 10 out of 14

Congratulations, Maria Luisa; poor MC. One of MC's kids died onboard the British ship, age 6, while the family was evacuating Naples in the face of a French invasion. A very traumatic time for MC. :(

I see Wikipedia lists at least 8 of MC's kids dying from smallpox. I guess she inherited Mom's initial resistance to inoculation? But at least MT gave in after losing multiple kids and two daughters-in-law!

MA: I was the smart one of the family!

Re: Leopold II

[selenak]

Speaking of mothers with that many children, cahn, if you do manage the History of the Germans podcast, you will encounter the lady Dirk refers to as the unnatural fecund Agnes of Waiblingen, who had 22 of those, NOT counting undocumented stillbirths in between. Her fertility was quintessential for German history, since she had the children from two different husbands, and thus spawned two important families allied to each other, one of which were the Staufer (who called themselves Waiblinger after her) and the other the Babenberger. (Otto of Freising was one of the later.)

Re: Leopold's cunning plan re: Hungaria, alas since he died after only a very few years of government, it didn't work out (his son Franz squashed both what had remained of Joseph's reforms and most of Leopold's and was an arch reactionary), and so we will never know whether it would have, had he lived longer.

Re: Leopold II

[cahn]

I feel tired just thinking about being pregnant/giving birth that many times, withotu even thinking about parenting the resulting children!

Living in the ages before birth control...

[selenak]

To be fair, even in high medieval times, a high ranking noblewoman like Agnes would not have been expected to do the raising on her lonesome, but would have had lots of servants and tutors available. Still, that didn't spare her all the pregnancies and births!

(And that's why in my earliest Frederician story I had MT react to that "you never faced death on the battlefield" remark with basically "oh yeah? Try being pregnant and giving birth just once!")

Re: Living in the ages before birth control...

[cahn]

Yeah, Fritz! And without epidurals and a much higher chance of death!

Re: Leopold II

[cahn]

It fits with his leadership style of "Lay the groundwork first, then make your move," vs. Joseph's "Decide what you want, then make your move, we don't need no stinkin' groundwork." :P

Okay, I am definitely a fan!

(Though Joseph is still the awkward fanboy of my heart.)

Speaking of Joseph....

[selenak]

I just saw Amazon Prime has Sofia Coppola's Marie Antoinette up in my region, and I hadn't watched since it was released in the cinema, so I did now. Danny Huston plays Joseph in it; he's just in two dialogue scenes (one with MA, one with Louis, giving him the start of The Talk), and another cameo scene when MT has died and we overhear Marie Antoinette writing to her brother while Joseph is shown with MT's dead body. Within that small screen time, Huston conveys a lot of personal big brother, little sister warmth, and he's kind to Louis. (Also, for the record, the start of The Talk goes like this:

J: I hear you are a passionate locksmith.
L: *frightened* Yes?
J: Well, then you know that sometimes, a key does not completely fit with a lock right at the start, and then....

(*voice gets indistinct as Sofia Coppola spares audience and camera pulls back*)

The interesting thing is that about twenty minutes earlier, when teen MA gets gossipped about at court because there's no baby and everybody and their valet have figured out there's no marital action going on, two ladies of the court say surely, it's MA's fault, she must be frigid, "just like her brother the Emperor; everyone says he#s such a cold man". So Joseph showing up in person being nice and warm and solving the big marital problem comes as a (nice) surprise to the audience (unless they figured out that since the gossipers guess about MA is completely off base, they're not supposed to be truth tells). (The film is based on Antonia Fraser's MA biography, which I haven't read.) Between Leopold's big "Why my entire family sucks, but especially Joseph!" rant complains about more the opposite (prostitutes! Uncouth people he lets approach him! He's impulsive! He's sarcastic! He's vain!), and the Conspiracy Theorist author who thinks <>Don Giovanni is a Joseph avatar (despite actual librettist da Ponte having no idea bout this, but then for Conspiracy!Author, Da Ponte is a Joseph liking idiot anyway) and Mozart speaking truth to power for the supposed seduction of Constanze by the Emperor, I can't decide who'd be more offended by Nice!Joseph in this film.:)

(Me, I only thought that Danny Huston doesn't look like any portrait of Joseph we have, but in terms of how Joseph came across during his visit in Paris, he's absolutely solid.)

Re: Speaking of Joseph....

[cahn]

Also, for the record, the start of The Talk goes like this:

Awwww, okay, that's really sweet!

surely, it's MA's fault, she must be frigid, "just like her brother the Emperor; everyone says he#s such a cold man".

This is also awesome (though in sort of the opposite way) :)

(The film is based on Antonia Fraser's MA biography, which I haven't read.)

Has salon read any Fraser in general? I do remember coming across her MA biography when I got the Zweig (though I didn't read it at all). Scrolling through amazon reviews makes it sound like she might be a little more apologetic towards MA than Zweig, though. (Though I suppose the real question is, does she ship MA/Fersen? :) )

Re: Speaking of Joseph....

[mildred_of_midgard]

Has salon read any Fraser in general?

Only in high school, sorry! I know I read and owned her Mary, Queen of Scots bio, and at least one of her others, but I retain no memories.

Re: Speaking of Joseph....

[selenak]

I read her Charles II biography, which is both entertaining and informative, but also was the one that got her the reputation of falling in love with her subjects, and I think she even did admit - not in the book, in interviews - to a crush on Charles. Otoh Antonia Fraser also wrote about Oliver Cromwell (before she wrote her Charles biography, I might add), and no one accused her of being in love with him....

Re: Speaking of Joseph....

[selenak]

I replied to the reading Fraser question elsewhere. Going this this review of her MA biography, yes, she does ship MA/Fersen! Incidentally, the Coppola movie doesn't, really. I mean, they're shown to have an affair - the only affair Marie Antoinette has with anyone in this film, as her relationships with her female favourites Lamballe and Polignac are completely platonic friendships - , but there's minimum dialogue, and the main relationship MA has in the movie is with her husband, which starts out completely awkward for the obvious reasons but by the time they leave Versailles, which is when the movie ends, has become us-against-the-world-mutually-supportive. By contrast, Fersen basically his introduction scene, when MA and he notice each other on a masque ball, and exchange two flirty lines before MA has to return to Versailles and Fersen disappears for the next hour, and then the scene where he's back (after the birth of the first two kids), we see them flirt through the eyes of her courtiers (i.e. at a distance where you can't hear their dialogue), and then there's the cut to MA lying naked except for her stockings waiting for him, indicating that yes, this is about to become sexual. And that's it. So Fraser might ship MA/Fersen, but Coppola ships MA/Louis instead and does the "arranged marriage turns real" trope for the film.

Incidentally: this very Christmas, the BBC does a new MA miniseries in six parts, from the same producer as The Favourite. Going by the trailer, there is f/f kissing, at least. I'm very much afraid, though, that the lady saying she'll destroy MA is supposed to be Dubarry, which is really unfair if true. All Dubarry wanted was being talked to by the Dauphine. The whole Dubarry/MA bust up was very much engineered by "the aunts", Louis XV's unmarried daughters, for their own purposes, so if anyone should be blamed, it's them. Also, reminder, when MA gloated about finally being able to send Dubarry packing after Louis XV had died, MT wrote a chiding letter and says MA should be sorry for her instead. (Sidenote: Oh, and when Joseph visited Paris years later, he did visit Dubarry, which was really unexpected because she had no more influence and thus there was no political point. But apparently he wanted to.