![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cahnMore diaries of our favorite 18th-century Prussian diary-keeper have been unearthed and have been synopsized!
January 18th: Blessed be thou to me! Under your light, my Prince Heinrich was born!
January 18th: Blessed be thou to me! Under your light, my Prince Heinrich was born!
Katte
Date: 2022-09-04 08:03 pm (UTC)One is the answer to a question I've had for years, namely, what is the source of the claim I've seen on the internet that a friend of Katte's said that it "physically pained" Katte to be apart from Fritz?
Found it in Hinrichs, and what it says is actually not that, but I see how it got turned into that through a game of telephones (which quite possibly involved me misremembering):
Am 31. August sagte Katte über v. Spaen aus, dieser habe ihm während der Ansbachischen Reise des Kronprinzen einmal in Berlin gesagt, "dass er solche Liebe zum Kronprinzen trüge, dass er sich schwerlich würde resolvieren können, weit von ihm zu bleiben."
On August 31, Katte said about von Spaen that the latter had once said to him in Berlin, during the Crown Prince's trip to Ansbach, "that he bore such love for the Crown Prince, that he would find it very hard to resolve to remain far from him."
Correct me if my translation is wrong, but my interpretation is that Spaen is saying that if Fritz deserts on that trip, Spaen (not Katte) is going to find it hard not to desert too.
Second and very similar point:
In dem Verhör vom 28. August 1730 sagte Katte aus, der Leutnant von Spaen habe ihm in vergangen Winter einmal anvertraut, "dass er seinen Knecht auf Ordre des Prinzen nach Leipzig schicken müssen, einen Reise-Wagen zu bestellen und wollte ihm der Prinz auch 2 Koffers geben, die er doch mir schicken sollte, sich aber nicht weiter erkläret; ihm wäre so Angst dabei, dass der Prinz vielleicht weggehen wollte. Er hoffte aber nicht, bäthe auch fleißig unsern Herrn Gott, dass es nicht geschehen möchte, darauf ich ihm sagte, er sollte sich darüber keine Gedanken machen, es wäre fast ohnmöglich, wegzukommen. Wäre er aber einmal weg, würde ich suchen, hier los zu kommen und dann Ihm nachgehen, wo er wäre."
Now, the pronouns and the reported speech are making me a little uncertain of my translation, but this is what I've got:
In the interrogation of August 28, 1730, Katte said that Lt. Spaen had, in the past winter, once confided to him, "that he was supposed to send his servant to Leipzig on the order of the prince, order a carriage, and the Prince also wanted to give him two coffers, which he however should send to me, but would not explain himself further. This made him [Spaen] afraid that the Prince perhaps wanted to go away. He hoped not, however, and also diligently prayed our Lord God that this might not happen; to which I told him he shouldn't worry about it, it was almost impossible to get away. If he did go, though, I would try to get free from here and go where he was.
The chronology here is what's interesting to me. Reminder:
- Mid 1729: Fritz and Katte start getting to know each other.
- November 1729: Fritz and Peter Keith try to escape; Lt. Spaen is supposed to order horses but doesn't know why; not a single other person knows of this plan (according to Fritz's 1730 testimony).
- January 1730: Peter Keith is sent to Wesel to get him away from Fritz and his escape-planning. Only after Peter's gone do we have evidence that Fritz is trying to get Katte to help him escape/come with him.
November 1729 is the escape attempt that Katte is reporting here. The thing that's interesting to me is that at this stage, Fritz isn't entrusting "we've only known each other a few months" Katte yet with his escape attempts (though apparently considers him trustworthy enough to be sent some coffers after the fact), but Katte, if I'm not misinterpreting the "ich" in that passage, is willing to desert for Fritz already?
And yet only if Fritz leaves. Even though he might be lying through his teeth about his reluctance to desert because of the threat of torture, we do have the evidence that in 1730, Katte had to be talked into helping with stories of "But Seckendorff and Grumbkow want to force me to convert to Catholicism and marry an Austrian archduchess!"
I considered that that might have been before the November 1729 attempt, but if Fritz was already trying to talk Katte into deserting, surely he would have been more involved in November than "Spaen, send him a couple of coffers for me, k?"
I also considered that Katte might be lying about his willingness to leave in 1729, but...that's the opposite of the lie he'd want to tell, so I believe him.
I also considered that Fritz is trying to keep his escape as secret as possible, so maybe he didn't tell Katte to protect him and because he didn't need another accomplice since Peter was already on board (and way more gung ho than Katte), not because he didn't yet trust Katte that much...but 17-yo Fritz really, really sucks at keeping secrets. I genuinely think he would have told Katte asap if he had had the trust in him (and/or desperation with Peter gone) that he had in 1730.
So I'm getting the sense that Katte was a lot more emotionally committed to/infatuated with Fritz than Fritz to him in November 1729.
I suppose the alternative is that both Fritz and Katte are telling the same lie about Katte not knowing about the 1729 attempt, but without being able to communicate with each other, it's interesting that they both independently decided to lie and landed on the same lie. Usually there's some kind of contradiction in the testimony, like when Fritz said he extorted not!Robert by telling him that his brother was going to desert, and not!Robert said he knew nothing about his brother's desertion plan and that Fritz specifically told him not to tell Peter anything when they got to Wesel. Not to mention the nefarious Catholic marriage contradictions. Or Fritz insisting he was planning to come back while page Keith said Fritz said he was never coming back..
So I'm still leaning toward November 1729 being when Katte is head over heels and Fritz is all, "Peter! You are the one person I can trust with this secret! Thank you for being the one person who is totally on board with getting out of this hellhole. No, I won't hold your eagerness against you in the future, why do you ask?"
(Still haven't gotten to the secret library, since I got sidetracked by Katte.)
Oh, lol, I just got to the part where Fritz explains why he picked Katte (and says the first time he took him into his confidence was at Zeithain):
Because I took him for étourdi, the kind of person who likes to dare dangerous things.
Bilingual dictionaries keep giving me "dazed," "thoughtless," "giddy," "inconsiderate" for "étourdi", but given the monolingual definition of "someone who acts without thinking," I'm going to go with "impulsive" here.
It's funny because the phrase used by Prussian Count Rothenburg's wife to describe Katte in 1728 is "charmant mais étourdi." Apparently that was his outstanding character trait! (I'm not sure that's especially noticeable in how Michael Roes portrayed him--not that I've read more than excerpts, so correct me if I'm wrong.)
Re: Katte
Date: 2022-09-05 10:52 am (UTC)Yes, that's what it says. Remind me, Spaen wasn't the one with the teacups, that was Ingerssomething or the other, right? Though Spaen shows up in Nicolai, I think?
Re: the second excerpt, I see the conclusion as a bit more ambigously - the "If he did go, I would try to get free from here" can also mean that Katte, still recounting his conversation with Spaen, told Spaen that if he were Spaen, he'd follow Fritz in the event that Fritz does manage to escape.
This said, your interpretation is also valid, plus of course all the statements aren't given in private conversations but the product of interrogation, and thus always worth being side-eyed re: their veracity. It's entirely possible Katte was more quickly into Fritz than Fritz was into him, though that's the reverse of how all the fictionalisations I'm aware of play it. :)
"charmant mais étourdi." Apparently that was his outstanding character trait! (I'm not sure that's especially noticeable in how Michael Roes portrayed him--not that I've read more than excerpts, so correct me if I'm wrong.)
NO, he doesn't, he portrays him very angsty and as brooding and since he's the sole author who portrays Katte for the majority of the book outside of the Fritz relationship, that's definitely a choice on his part. Because I think the problem is that most fictional Kattes are written in a Fritzian context, where it makes sense that Fritz is the risk taker pushing for action and the older Katte the one cautioning and counselling restraint etc. Hence no impulsive!Katte. Whereas clearly Fritz saw him like that.
Re: Katte
Date: 2022-09-05 11:27 am (UTC)Correct, Ingersleben is our teacup man!
To quote
Speaking of Trick or Treat fairy-tale motifs! To quote you:
Heart: sorry, [personal profile] mildred_of_midgard, I have no idea. Though the Sandman and fairy tale reader in me now wonders whether you could construct a fairy tale version whether the heart was from Fritz, which he gave to Katte to keep, and which ended up in the Prussian State's possession, hence the entirety of the rest of Fritz' life!
Though Spaen shows up in Nicolai, I think?
Also correct!
Frederick the Great had done nothing for Spaen after his ascension; but when he travelled to Kleve in the year 1763, he did take lodgings with General von Spaen, was very gracious and confidential towards him, reminded him of stories of their shared youth, but did not mention the year 1730 with one word; which is why General von Spaen used to joke that the King had an excellent memory right up to 1730.
Kloosterhuis says Spaen was cashiered, imprisoned 3 years in in Spandau (starting November 7, 1730), and then went into Dutch service.
I can see why you would want Fritz to acknowledge you made a sacrifice!
THERAPY FOR EVERYONE
Re: the second excerpt, I see the conclusion as a bit more ambigously - the "If he did go, I would try to get free from here" can also mean that Katte, still recounting his conversation with Spaen, told Spaen that if he were Spaen, he'd follow Fritz in the event that Fritz does manage to escape.
Ahh, yes. Could be. I saw multiple ways of interpreting that sentence, but I didn't come up with that one. Interesting!
Katte, why so ambiguous?? Twenty-first century readers need to know!
It's entirely possible Katte was more quickly into Fritz than Fritz was into him, though that's the reverse of how all the fictionalisations I'm aware of play it. :)
Right? But given that Fritz is CROWN PRINCE, and Katte is someone Fritz took an immediate dislike to and had to be won around, I could see it playing out so that Katte falls first.
Roes: Yeah, my impression is that he's super side-eyeing all the crazy 18th century stuff he sees/gets involved in, like duels and hazing rituals (like riding horses into people's salons), and, like, it's entirely possible that Katte was totally into all this. :P We know (or at least strongly deduce) that Katte was reluctant to join the escape attempt, given the evidence that Fritz had to lie to him, but...maybe that's a case of, "You know your escape plan is poorly thought out when even Lieutenant Hans Hermann 'My middle name is Impulsive' von Katte thinks it's a bad idea," rather than "Katte's fate in life is to always find himself playing the role of Only Sane Man."
(I'm now imagining a scenario where Katte *does* make an impulse trip all the way to Madrid, only he hasn't bothered to find out that 1) Rottembourg isn't ambassador any more, 2) the Spanish court is in Andalusia, and thus Katte's very surprised when he arrives. Speaking of which,
Re: Katte
Date: 2022-09-06 08:03 am (UTC)Kloosterhuis says Spaen was cashiered, imprisoned 3 years in in Spandau (starting November 7, 1730), and then went into Dutch service.
I can see why you would want Fritz to acknowledge you made a sacrifice!
Peter Keith: Join the club.
Doris Ritter: MEN.
Duhan: He acknowledged me! With the same text as Algarotti, no less!
Right? But given that Fritz is CROWN PRINCE, and Katte is someone Fritz took an immediate dislike to and had to be won around, I could see it playing out so that Katte falls first.
Trying to think of it: is there a (pro)fictional version which even includes Fritz originally being distant? Let alone Katte falling for him first (even in a platonic version)? I can't think of one. (In Roes, he's sorry for Fritz the moment he sees him, but the later emotional and then physical intimacy is all initialized by Fritz. And let's not even mention the Katte/Wilhelmine shipping musical in this context.) Despite, as you say, it making sense.
HOWEVER, and speaking of
maybe that's a case of, "You know your escape plan is poorly thought out when even Lieutenant Hans Hermann 'My middle name is Impulsive' von Katte thinks it's a bad idea," rather than "Katte's fate in life is to always find himself playing the role of Only Sane Man."
*nods* And that's why in an AU where Fritz successfully escapes, and Katte as well, you'd have to change the plan, methinks.
Re: Katte
Date: 2022-09-09 05:02 am (UTC)Doris Ritter: MEN.
Duhan: He acknowledged me! With the same text as Algarotti, no less!
Hee, but also :(
And let's not even mention the Katte/Wilhelmine shipping musical in this context.
Lolololol!
her stories about Katte and Fritz, especially the last one, are the only ones I can think of where Katte has that cheerful energy which salon has decided he must have had
Aw man, there's only one in English! Right, I'll have to read that one.
Re: Katte
Date: 2022-09-18 08:43 pm (UTC)He called you his true father! He visited your deathbed and wrote nice things about himself in the third person for doing so! (iirc)
I'm not sure why you're never listed among the "The only person Fritz ever REALLY loved was" statements that biographers love making.
Trying to think of it: is there a (pro)fictional version which even includes Fritz originally being distant?
I mean, I'm not the (pro)fictional expert here, but nothing is coming to mind. And this is the guy who the trial records said initially took a dislike to Katte!
HOWEVER, and speaking of [personal profile] prinzsorgenfrei: her stories about Katte and Fritz, especially the last one, are the only ones I can think of where Katte has that cheerful energy which salon has decided he must have had
Gaah, I am so behind on fanfic! But that is good to know. And good for her!
(like Keyslerlingk and Algarotti, evidently something Fritz was attracted to)
Based on things Fritz wrote, I think he was attracted to it because he had depressive tendencies/PTSD, and being around cheerful people had a tonic effect on him. <3 I think Peter lost out because he *didn't* have this going for him.
Re: Katte
Date: 2022-09-09 04:59 am (UTC)Kloosterhuis says Spaen was cashiered, imprisoned 3 years in in Spandau (starting November 7, 1730), and then went into Dutch service.
I can see why you would want Fritz to acknowledge you made a sacrifice!
THERAPY FOR EVERYONE
:(
maybe that's a case of, "You know your escape plan is poorly thought out when even Lieutenant Hans Hermann 'My middle name is Impulsive' von Katte thinks it's a bad idea,"
Heh. Aw.
It does remind me of the story with him and Quantz -- I feel like sometimes people who are impulsive can also think quickly in a crisis because they're sort of used to thinking (sometimes too) quickly. Which I think you said to me maybe when writing the Katte fic? when you were cautioning me against making him too thoughtful.
Re: Katte
Date: 2022-09-05 05:45 pm (UTC)Correction: French Count Rottembourg's wife, whose name is given as Eva Sophie, née Helmstat. Source: Martin von Katte.
Now, all that information does is add to my confusion, because as you may (not) recall, my sources are evenly divided on whether Rottembourg was ever married. Some contemporary documents say "died never married," others say he was married, and at least one is specific about him marrying a Jeanne-Madelene d'Helmstat on April 10, 1721.
Now I've got a second name for her! But it is increasingly looking like he married a Helmstat woman of some name.
(Me: three pages further in Hinrichs and more sidetracked than ever.)
Re: Katte
Date: 2022-09-06 07:47 am (UTC)Re: Katte
Date: 2022-09-14 06:55 pm (UTC)Also, lol, looking up Ariane's spellings, I ran across this AU plot bunny of hours that I'd forgotten:
Lastly: if Peter met Algarotti and Lord Hervey, then maybe also Lady Mary? (Maybe Algarotti thinks Peter would make a good alternate object for her affections and tries to set them up, but Lady Mary isn't into Prussians pining for their first imprisoned and then "reformed" prince on a romantic level; however, they could maybe empathize on a "the one I love loves someone else more" Level?
Algarotti to Lord Hervey: Look, if it works out, it's win win for everyone! She stops pining for me. He gets an additional sponsor and some free education, given the sheer range of her knowledge. Sure, there's an age difference, but clearly that's not a problem for her or you. The Queen has one poor guy less to sponsor and could consider advancing my career instead. Mary/Peter OTP!
Sadly, we've since discovered that Peter did *not* leave London a few weeks after Algarotti arrived, but almost a year before, but I still love the OTP AU!
Re: Katte
Date: 2022-09-09 04:56 am (UTC)