cahn | Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 30

In which, despite the title, I would like to be told about the English Revolution, which is yet another casualty of my extremely poor history education :P :)

Also, this is probably the place to say that RMSE opened with three Fritz-fics, all of which I think are readable with minimum canon knowledge:

The Boy Who Lived - if you knew about the doomed escape-from-Prussia-that-didn't happen and tragic death of Fritz's boyfriend Hans Hermann von Katte, you may not have known about Peter Keith, the third young man who conspired to escape Prussia -- and the only one who actually did. This is his story. I think readable without canon knowledge except what I just said here.

Challenge Yourself to Relax - My gift, I posted about this before! Corporate AU with my problematic fave, Fritz' brother Heinrich, who's still Fritz's l'autre moi-meme even in corporate AU. Readable without canon knowledge if one has familiarity with the corporate world and the dysfunctions thereof.

The Rise and Fall of the RendezvousWithFame Exchange - Fandom AU with BNF fanfic writer Voltaire, exchange mod Fritz, and the inevitable meltdown. (I wrote this one and am quite proud of the terrible physics-adjacent pun contained within.) Readable without canon knowledge if one has familiarity with fandom and the dysfunctions thereof :P

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From:

mildred_of_midgard

am quite proud of the terrible physics-adjacent pun contained within.

You should be! It's an awesome physics-adjacent pun!

Speaking of problematic faves, and replying to Selena's comment in the last post, I totally get Blanning stanning C1! We all have our problematic faves! You just have to distinguish between "this person is my problematic fave" and "this person is a role model for other people." Because they are very, very different, says this fan of Fritz the Not Your Role Model. :P

C1 teaching How to Keep Your Kingdom 101 with C2 as his student reminds me of this Monty Python sketch. ;)

From:

selenak

A musical and funny introduction specifically tailored for you,

cahn: The English Civil War Compilation from Horrible Histories. Only 14 minutes altogether, and the opening song is a hilarious spoof on Westside Story.

Some background on the players on the royal side first, because I know a bit more about their private lives than about Oliver Cromwell's.

Charles I: from now on, C1, to be easier told apart from his son Charles II. C1 starts out as the sickly third child of King James (the gay witch-persecuting one played by Alan Cummings on Doctor Who, whom you saw the clip of) of Scotland and Anne of Denmark. So sickly is little C that no one expects him to make it out of childhood alive, and when James inherits the English Crown from Elizabeth Tudor, little C1 is left behind in Scotland for a year. After which he's still alive and brought to England.

C1's older siblings, by contrast, are strong, healthy and smart: Henry, the Prince of Wales, and Elizabeth, future Winter Queen but right now golden girl at the English Court. Henry dies completely unexpectedly at age 18 while Elizabeth is in the middle of her marriage preparations. Reminder: she's about to marry young Friedrich of the Palatine, with intriguing prospects re: Bohemia but otherwise way below what the daughter of a King usually can expect, so her mother is mocking her as "Goodwife Palsgrave". (SD: not the first mother to take it out on her daughter for agreeing to a below rank marriage.) C1 is twelve and suddenly thrust in the spotlight as the new Prince of Wales. He's shy and developes a life long stammer. But more surprisingly, he goes from being a sickly child to being a healthy teen. What happened? Current theories include his childhood illnesses being caused by rickets and the increase of good food and more outdoors activities making a difference.

Now, Dad James is as openly gay as it is possible to be, and his new dashing young fave is (the Duke of) Buckingham, or as James calls him "Steeney". Buckingham, whom I should call B1 because his son also eventually has a role to play, is that rarity, a generations-hugging fave, as opposed to one who is loathed by his monarch's successor. He's who Hervey, a century later, would have loved to be, since he manages to befriend the young Prince of Wales without losing James' favour. And when James dies, Buckingham continues as C1's favourite and de facto PM. (The title didn't exist yet.) Since C1 throughout his life showed no m/m interest, the current position is that unlike Buckingham and James, they didn't have sex. But they definitely were close, and for the first few years of his reign, C1 clung to Buckingham for emotional support, advice, everything.

Now, during James' last years of life, he'd first planned to marry C1 to a Spanish Infanta, and young C plus Buckingham had in fact made an "incognito" (as in, everyone knew who they were but had to pretend not to) trip through Europe to Spain to nail down the deal. This turned out to be a complete dud (the Infanta wasn't keen at all to marry an English prince, presumably recalling the last Spanish princess who'd done that had been Catherine of Aragon), and only managed to cause a scandal because when C1 and Buckingham passed France en route, Buckingham fell for the young French Queen, Anne of Austria (the one from the Three Musketeers, where this event is highly plot relevant) and romanced her in public, upsetting everyone. On the bright side, James now had an alternate idea whom to marry Charles to - Anne of Austria's sister-in-law, Henrietta Maria, sister to Louis XIII (so more properly I should write her name as Henriette Marie, but the English Civil War fiction all goes with "Henrietta Maria"). This marriage happened, with one of conditions being that Henrietta Maria, as a Daughter of France a Catholic, would be allowed to continue practicising her religion and would not have to convert to the Anglican church.

*cue ominous music*

She was 15, and partly because her young husband C1 was so completely hung up on his bff Buckingham, their first few years of marriage were unhappy. And childless. But then! After a few troublesome years as Charles' fave in which in Buckingham continues to piss off everyone BUT the monarch whose fave he is, gets Charles involved in several failed attempts as flexing his military muscles abroad (this includes the vain attempt to help the Protestants of the besieged La Rochelle, also plot relevant in The Three Musketeers), and finally is assassinated. (In The Three Musketeers, the assassin, one John Felton, was put up to it by the novel's main villainess, Milady de Winter, who in turn acted on behalf of Cardinal Richelieu since he didn't want Buckingham interrupting his ultimately successful conquest of La Rochelle anymore. This, I should point out, is entertaining fiction. But as Nancy Goldstone, the author of the Winter Queen book, puts it, in the England and France constellation of the day, it was C1 plus B1 versus Louis XIII and Richelieu, which meant Buckingham versus Richelieu, which was no contest at all.)

C1 is crushed and deeply mourns. He also takes Buckingham's kid, little B2, in and raises him with his own (to be born soon), which is why C2 and B2 will be incredibly tight as well in future years. However, partly because the C1 & B1 combo has pissed off the British nobility so much, and partly because Buckingham made sure he had no competition in the affection of the monarch, there isn't a friend for C1 to turn to in his grief. But there is a wife! Perhaps it's that she's now older, no longer a gawky teen, or that he's utterly bereft, or both, but C1 and Henrietta Maria now experience their own arranged marriage turning to true love story. They become a genuine love match, never far apart, producing one child after the other. There is no mistress for C1, and male favourite, either. There is only the Queen, who becomes his closest advisor as well.

...The Queen, who is a Catholic. C1 isn't, and won't become one, either, rumors to the contrary, but he does like his high church Anglicanism, and he's no more politically astute without Buckingham than he was with Buckingham. Only now instead of blaming the hated favourite, people start blaming the FRENCH CATHOLIC Queen. Who, in turn, starts to loathe them right back, especially the more hardcore Protestant parliamentarians.

*cue even more ominous music*

Before I get to further developments, some fiction covering this era:

Alexandre Dumas: The Three Musketeers and the sequel, Twenty Years Later, in which our heroes try in vain to save C1 from being beheaded. Some of the latest film versions have altered the plot so much that either Richelieu is scheming for the throne and allied with Buckingham (WTF?), or Buckingham is trying to conquer France (WTF? He was very hubristic, but not THAT much), or there is no English involvement in the plot at all, but if you ever catch the two part Richard Lester movies from the 1960s - The Three Musketeers and The Four Musketeers - they actually are the most faithful in existence, including the humor.

TV Series: The Devil's Whore: this was an utter let down to me. I liked the main actress, but in its attempt to rectify the over romantisation of the Royalist side and focusing on the parliamentarian side, the series managed to go way over the top with the evil Royals, and it used a plot device that made me roll my eyes so much I'm amazed I still have them; our heroine's first husband is scandalized by her enjoying sex and reviles her for it. Series makers, 17th century Brits were not freaking Victorians! Current theory then was that if a woman had an orgasm, this heightened her chances at conception, and since every noble wanted an heir, you bet the guy would have been thrilled. But no, in order for our heroine to be a rebel discovering her sexuality, we get this anachronistic taboo. Same with people being SHOCKED a noble lady would manage her estate and hold it in a dangerous situation. Again, they were supposed to! And don't get me started on Rapist!Rupert (the start of our heroine's disillusionment with the royals is when the King's nephew tries to rape her, which, well, you can't prove a negative, so it's impossible to say whether Sophie of Hannover's brother Rupert ever raped someone; however, he had a good reputation, and if even his enemies at the height of the propaganda war couldn't find something better to accuse him of than having his poodle as a familiar - complete with insinuation of bestiality -, as opposed to accusing him, half foreigner that he was, of molesting English maidens -, I'd say chances are he wasn't the royal rapist type). Despite good actors being involved, very much anti-recced.

Book: Rebels and Traitors by Lindsey Davis, author of the Falco mysteries. Pro-Parliamentarian side, with fictional characters as the leads, good novel with a terrible (as in badly written) ending. Which is just weird. I linked my overall review. Other than this, it's an entertaining book showing how the Civil War would have felt to the population caught up in it.

Movie: "Oliver" (as in Cromwell), 1970 movie starring Richard Harris as Oliver C. and Alec Guinness as C1. A critic joked it should really be called "Charles and Oliver" since it's as much about C1 as it is about Cromwell. Solidly pro Cromwell, meaning the only Catholics who show up are the Queen and some scheming bishops, certainly no Irish peasants whom Cromwell goes genocidal on after winning the Civil War(s); "the people" are always Protestant people, and Charles is not personally malicious but clueless and due to his arrogance and unwillingness to compromise responsible for his own doom. (Which, fair enough.)

There is also Restoration fiction using the Civil War as background and a first part, but that I'll cover in a separate comment.

Edited Date: 2021-09-09 10:03 am (UTC)

From:

selenak

One thing even C1's worst enemies would not dispute is that he was one of the best art collectors and patrons the British monarchy has ever produced. Van Dyck (whose portraits of Charles and Henrietta Maria became iconic*) was but one of many, (then) living and dead; Rubens, Caravaggio, both Gentileschi (i.e. Artemesia and her father Orazio, who concluded his life as C1's court painter), you name the stellar Baroque painter, C1 bought his paintings. (Whereas he avoided the duds of the era. The man must have had great taste.) If the Royal Collection today is still one of the best, it's largely due to C1.

*Mind you, if you check out my summary of C1's niece Sophie of Hannover's memoirs, you'll find she snarked that when she first saw Henrietta Maria in person, she thought her aunt's teeth stood out lilke cannons from her mouth, very unlike Van Dyck's portrait...

However, like his grandmother, Mary Queen of Scots, he just wasn't good at ruling and very good at making enemies. His various conflicts with parliament weren't just about religion but also, often, money (as in, he wanted it, and parliament in whose power the budget was didn't want to give it to him after the various stunts he pulled). As a rule of thumb, he more often than not managed to be in the wrong, from today's perspective, with a notable (and sensational, which is why I'm telling you about it) exception: the Earl of Strafford, who was basically Charles' right hand man at the point where it gets sensational.

Parliament, attempting to show C1 who's boss: Strafford is a traitor!
C1: WTF?
P: Sure is. We'll impeach him for high treason.
Case against Strafford: *collapses in the House of Lords, where he's tried first*
Lords: Strafford is innocent.
House of Commons: Not the point. We won't even put on another trial. We'll just declare him guilty without one.
C1: *sends kid son future C2 to plead with the parliamentarians to spare Stafford's life, since clearly the guy is just a scapegoat in the tug of war between C1 and Parliament, has only been loyal to his King and never has done anything to deserve the death penalty*
Future C2, 11 years: *does so*
House of Commons: Nah. Off with his head!
Strafford: *gets executed*
C1 and Henrietta Maria: *decide any compromise with the Commons is out of the question now*
Kid C2: *learns a different lesson than the adults and starts to become a cynic about humanity*

Now, one very unusual thing about C1 and his kids was that as opposed to C1, Elizabeth and Henry, all of whom had in royal tradition been raised elsewhere, not with their parents, as children, C1 and Henrietta Maria's children were actually raised with them. Partly due to circumstance, since after C1 had lost London in the Civil War against parliament, he first made Oxford his alternate residence and then was on the move all the time - providing the kids with separate households would have made them easy targets to be captured. But this meant, for example, that future C2 and brother James were with their father all the time as kids and teens in a way few princes were, including on the battlefield, and they never forgot that experience. It explains a lot about both of them, though again, they drew different lessons from it.

Back to more cheerfull stuff.

C2: is the second of his parents' children born, but the first to survive. Henrietta Maria pronounced him ugly from birth, and he agreed - "Oddsfish, I am an ugly fellow", adult C2 would cheerfully declare - but he was witty, charming and as can be proved by the twelve years he'd spend in exile where female company couldn't have been due to royal prerogative or cash, neither of which were available at that time to him, what was later called a chick magnet. (This even worked postumously. Asked about her favourite royal predecessor, Queen Victoria stunned everyone by picking not a bona fide heroic figure like Henry V., the other famous Queen, Elizabeth I, or the very Christian Alfred the Great, but Charles II. Antonia Fraser, his biographer, famously admitted later to have developed a crush on him while writing the book.) He also was an excellent liar (unlike Dad). And deeply fond of the siblings he so unusually grew up with during a Civil War. Which is also the most likely answer to the question as to why C2, who, going by various quotes, could see James was heading towards the same direction as Dad did re ability to keep the kingdom, still kept him as a successor and even fought for him when his parliament wanted to disqualify James after James had come out as a Catholic.

C2's nurse/first governess Christabel in a circumstance that would have delighted Freud returned to his life mid Civil War when C2 was fourteen or fifteen and deflowered him. Supposedly this was Henrietta Maria's idea, just as her sister-in-law Anne of Austria would order a trusted lady-in-waiting to deflower her oldest son, C2's cousin Louis XIV. Micromanaging the future King's loss of virginity was supposed to preclude some ambitious noble family getting their chance there. (I.e. by choosing older, trusted women who couldn't possibly be potential brides and were no virgins.) But yeah, Freud would not have been surprised at all.

One thing C1 managed in the English Civil War which Louis XVI. didn't manage in the French Revolution was getting his wife and kids out of the country in time. Well, most of them. Two - Elizabeth and Henry, named after C1's siblings - were still in the country and in fact with Charles shortly before he died, when he took a tender farewell from them and made little Henry promise he would not allow Parliament to use him against his brother and make him King instead of C2. But the rest - C2, James, Mary, and the youngest, little Henriette Anne (whom C2 would later nickname "Minette") as well as Henrietta Maria were all either in the Netherlands (where Mary had married the current William of Orange and would give birth to the most famous William of Orange, the one later to reign in Britain) or at the French Court (since Henrietta Maria was Louis XIV's aunt). The youngest sister, Minette, was in fact smuggled out of the country disguised as a boy (and nearly gave the game away at Dover by telling the soldiers controlling Lady Dalkeith, the lady-in-waiting in charge of her, "Je ne suis pas Pierre - suis princesse!"). Minette would grow up entirely in France and become the unfortunate first wife of her cousin Philippe d'Orleans (yes, the gay one). More about her and her relationship to her brother C2 here. Mary, as mentioned, married into Dutch royalty. Little Elizabeth died as a teen. Young Henry (Duke of Gloucester) lived long enough together with C2 and James in exile to see C2 called back to Britain and the monarchy restored, but not by much. As mentioned in an earlier comment, his mother, Henrietta Maria, who in her later years became ever more hardcore Catholic (and she hadn't been exactly soft core to begin with), put massive pressure on Henry to convert to Catholicism, and when Henry refused, she cast him out and refused to see him when he was dying of smallpox. He's another "What if?" since if he had survived, he'd been a good alternative to James as King.

As far as Henrietta Maria was concerned, her dead husband C1 had been a martyred saint (in fact, the Anglican Church did later adopt him as such, I'm told, though whether he currently still holds that status I don't know), and had been a Catholic in his heart. Otoh, Elizabeth the soon to die who was 13 when her father was executed wrote an account of hers and Henry's last meeting with him, which went thusly:

He bid us tell my mother that his thoughts had never strayed from her, and that his love would be the same to the last. Withal, he commanded me and my brother to be obedient to her; and bid me send his blessing to the rest of my brothers and sisters, with communications to all his friends. Then, taking my brother Gloucester on his knee, he said, 'Sweetheart, now they will cut off thy father's head.' And Gloucester looking very intently upon him, he said again, 'Heed, my child, what I say: they will cut off my head and perhaps make thee a king. But mark what I say. Thou must not be a king as long as thy brothers Charles and James do live; for they will cut off your brothers' heads when they can catch them, and cut off thy head too at the last, and therefore I charge you, do not be made a king by them.' At which my brother sighed deeply, and made answer: 'I will be torn in pieces first!' And these words, coming so unexpectedly from so young a child, rejoiced my father exceedingly. And his majesty spoke to him of the welfare of his soul, and to keep his religion, commanding him to fear God, and He would provide for him. Further, he commanded us all to forgive those people, but never to trust them; for they had been most false to him and those that gave them power, and he feared also to their own souls. And he desired me not to grieve for him, for he should die a martyr, and that he doubted not the Lord would settle his throne upon his son, and that we all should be happier than we could have expected to have been if he had lived; with many other things which at present I cannot remember.

As can be seen in the Horrible Histories sketch, C1 did wear two shirts so he would not shiver at his execution (and thus give his enemies the satisfaction of deeming him a coward). Like his grandmother Mary Queen of Scots, he died with undeniable courage and style and after tender farewells from his loved ones, none of which changed the fact he had been a lousy monarch. Could he have avoided this death (other than through escaping the country, that is)? Probably, up to a point. Cromwell et all didn't intend to abolish the monarchy as such until very late in the game, when it was obvious C1, whatever open concession he'd make once captured, would not regard himself bound by them and behind their backs wrote to his loyalists accordingly. But C1, like Grandmother Mary Stuart, was convinced that as a monarch, he could not be judged by any jury, since it was by necessity one of subjects, not equals. He didn't have an equal on the British Isles and thus any judgment by Parliament in his eyes was null and void.

Charles' execution as depicted in various media:

Alec Guinness getting executed in the Cromwell biopic

C1 getting executed in TO KILL A KING (docudrama) - here the voiceover while C1 walks to his death is in fact an authentic speech of his apropos his trial

From:

selenak

...for a significant part of the plot:

Charles II: The Power and the Passion: British miniseries, which in the US was called "Charles II: The Last King" (meaning the last absolute King, since brother James lost his crown and after the Glorious Revolution, monarchs had their power severely curtailed), but also significantly cut, with some subplots making less to no sense that way, so if you can, get the European version. It has a very good cast - Rufus Sewell as C2, Rupert Graves as B2, Helen McCrory as B2's cousin Barbara Villiers, later Lady Castlemaine, and one of C2's main mistresses, Diana Rigg as old Henrietta Maria, and Ian McDiarmid, Palpatine himself, as a good guy, Edward Hyde, C2's faithful advisor in exile whose Anne daughter James would get pregnant and then refuse to marry upon which brother C2 made him marry her, thus ensuring the existence of future Queens Mary and Anne. The series starts with C2 having a nightmare of his father's execution, and it haunts him through the show, though the series itself starts when C2 is already in exile. On the dvd, there's a good documentary about young C2 in his father's life time, growing up in the Civil War. Also: the series has a lot about the intense yet up and down relationship between C2 and B2, where as in historical reality you conclude the only reason not to slash them is that both were the type to have sex with whomever (willing) they wanted to have, and if they would have wanted to have sex with each other, they would have. But they were childhood friends growing up and going into exile together, and in the first episode, when B2 tells C2 he's had it with exile and has had an offer from the Cromwellians he can't refuse so will return, there is face cradling and touching and "don't do this to me, George" and you hardly see C2 this openly vulnerable with any of his mistresses. They have some more breakups and reconciliatons, when other people who do the kind of things B2 pulls just get banished or dropped.

The King's Touch, by Jude Morgan: novel about C2's oldest and for a long time favourite illegitimate son James aka Jemmy, later Duke of Monmouth. A full third of said novel is set before C2's coronation. I read a biography of Monmouth after I read this novel, and found to my surprise that several elements I had thought the author had invented, such as Jemmy's closeness to Minette, or Jemmy being in the process of reconciling with Dad when C2 dies, were in fact historical elements. This one even has an Oliver Cromwell cameo (Jemmy's mother tries to return to England due to being broke in exile, gets captured, interrogated and sent back to the Netherlands - this another thing I thought was invented, but yes, Cromwell did briefly see her and the kid). Very good with the exile years it is, too, the Restoration's hedonism springing directly in reaction to this (and the years of Puritan rule), and C2's personality in general.

Does not use the Civil War as background except in one significant scene but is a very watchable movie: Stage Beauty, the main characters of which are Ned Kynaston, the last male actor to play Desdemona (and some other female roles) on the English stage, and Margaret Hughes, the first female actress to play said roles, their rivalry and eventuall teaming up. It's a wonderful movie, but don't even try to guess at which date it's supposed to be set, because on the one hand, it's supposed to be shortly after C2's coronation, otoh, C2 is a middle-aged to old man instead of being in his late 20s/early 30s, wheras B2, who is one of Ned's patrons and lovers, is Ned's own age (i.e. young), C2's main mistress in this film is Nell Gwyn - which is a problem not so much because Nelly was his later years mistress but because she was an actress, and since the film is about the introduction of female actors on the English stage and Margaret Hughes as the first one, this is a problem.

All this aside, it's still a great film, and I've linked my review so you know why.

RL Margaret Hughes, btw, would end up as the mistress and life partner of C2's cousin Rupert, son of the Winter Queen, brother to HannoverSophie. Funny thing:

Nancy Goldstone in "The Winter Queen": In his later years, Rupert had a short fling with an actress, M.H., and secretly married a Catholic lady.

Wiki: In his later years, Rupert had a short fling with a Catholic lady and settled down with Margaret Hughes.

Self (who dimly recalls a novel about Peg Hughes where she does end up with Rupert): checks out the dates: they both had daughters from him which Rupert acknowledged, but Ms Hughes' daughter post dates Ms Bard's daughter, and also the actress, not the noble lady, was the one he lived with when he died, so in this case, Goldstone was wrong and wiki was right. Quote from Wiki: .

Towards the end of his life Rupert fell in love with an attractive Drury Lane actress named Peg Hughes. Rupert became involved with her during the late 1660s, leaving his previous mistress, Frances Bard, although Hughes appears to have held out from reciprocating his attentions with the aim of negotiating a suitable settlement. Hughes rapidly received advancement through his patronage; she became a member of the King's Company by 1669, giving her status and immunity from arrest for debt, and was painted four times by Sir Peter Lely, the foremost court artist of the day.

Despite being encouraged to do so, Rupert did not marry Hughes, but acknowledged their daughter, Ruperta (born in 1673 and who later became Mrs Emanuel Howe). Hughes lived an expensive lifestyle during the 1670s, enjoying gambling and jewels; Rupert gave her at least £20,000 worth of jewellery during their relationship, including several items from the Palatinate royal collection. Margaret continued to act even after Ruperta's birth, returning to the stage in 1676 with the prestigious Duke's Company at the Dorset Garden Theatre, near the Strand in London. The next year Rupert established Hughes with a "grand building" worth £25,000 that he bought in Hammersmith from Sir Nicholas Crispe. Rupert seems rather to have enjoyed the family lifestyle, commenting that his young daughter "already rules the whole house and sometimes argues with her mother, which makes us all laugh."

Rupert isn't in "Stage Beauty" at all, but that's okay, since it takes place at the start of Margaret Hughes' career.

From:

selenak

Primary sources: some of the people involved, and C2 himself, who told diarist Samuel Pepys when returning to Britain on the journey across the channel, and Pepys noted it down in his diary.

So, when Dad C1 got executed, young C2 made one last attempt to retake the kingdom by allying with the Scots. He promptly got defeated by Cromwell at Worcester. (C2 learned lesson of the day: Cromwell is a way better general. If you ever want your kingdom back, it can't happen via conquest. C2 learned that lesson and waited till Cromwell was dead, his son sucked at the Protector job, and popular support for the Bring Back The Monarchy idea was overwhelming.) But back to the days when C2 was a young pub, who got defeated, and whose Dad had just been executed, meaning C2's future life span was less than assured. Also a £1000 reward was announced for information leading to Charles's capture.

C2: has about 60 people with him. (They'll be way less by the end, as a discreet number, this was not)

Lord Derby: So, there's this secret Catholic network. We should use that! I did myself more recently.

Gang of 60: *shows up at White Ladies*

Secret Catholic Pendrell brothers: Sure, we'll help! Anything for the martyr's son. But you need to switch outfits. Would you be okay with disguising yourself as a farm laborer?

C2: Will do, and also, we'll never make it if we remain together. Everyone, I appreciate your loyalty, but we need to split up. I'll go alone, aside from Lord Wilmot.

Lord Wilmot: *is famous for this and for being the father of the most infamous rake of the Restoration, Rochester*

C2 and Wilmot: *get their hair cut, - long hair being a sign of the nobility -, get put in farmer outfits, and get a crash class in how to talk none-posh*

Pendrell brothers: One big problem. As in, a huge problem. You, C2, are a man so tall that unborn FW's heart would beat faster and he'd conscript you immediately. There aren't many people your size in England, which makes you stand out. Also, your feet are accordingly large. And we don't have boots your size. Meanig you have wear shoes which are several sizes too small.

C2: An escaping uncrowned king's gotta do what an escaping uncrowned king's gotta do.

C2: *has bleeding and sore feet very quickly, but manages to keep going for three days before getting somewhere where it was possible to bind them and get other shoes*

In between:

Cromwell's soldiers: *show up in pursuit*

C2: *hiding in the woods*

Rain: *falls, which C2 later concluded was why the hiding worked*

Miller: Provides an old horse, so C2 has no longer to walk

Horse: *stumbles*

Pendrell brother: "No wonder, it bears the weight of three kingdoms on its back!"

(England, Scotland and France, if you're wondering. At this point, the British kings still called themselves "Kings of France". They'd keep doing that until Team Hannover got the crown and finally ditched that claim and the lily from the heralds)

Moseley Hall: C2 gets dry clothes and a meal, but Cromwell's soldiers arrive, so he has to hide in a "priest hole", one of those hiding places for Catholic priests first established when E1 reigned*

C2: *there meets also hiding Father Huddleston; when he finally converts to Catholicism on his deathbed, he will do so with said Father Huddleston as his admininstring priest, though how sincere that final conversion was is debated to this day*

C2: *adopts a new disguise, that of servant William Jackson who works for a lady named Jane Lane, who volunteered to bring him to Bristol*

C2 and Jane, riding on a horse together: *horse loses a shoe*

C2, in his diguise as a servant, takes the horse to a blacksmith:

C2, twelve years later, to Sam Pepys: ""As I was holding my horse's foot, I asked the smith what news. He told me that there was no news that he knew of, since the good news of the beating the rogues of the Scots. I asked him whether there was none of the English taken that joined with the Scots, He answered he did not hear if that rogue, Charles Stuart, were taken; but some of the others, he said, were taken. I told him that if that rogue were taken, he deserved to be hanged more than all the rest, for bringing in the Scots. Upon which he said I spoke like an honest man; and so we parted"

C2 and Jane Lane arrive at Long Marston where they stay at a relation of Jane's.

C2, posing as servant, gets put to work in the Kitchen.

Cook: You, wind up the jack! (Used to roast the meat in the fireplace)

C2: *has never done this before*

Cook: What kind of loser servant are you?

C2: I'm the son of people so poor that we hardly ever eat meat! That's why I've never used a roasting jack before!

Cook: *accepts that story*

Jane Lane and C2: *arrive at Bristol, stay at a family called the Nortons, who aren't told who C2 is*

The Nortons' butler: I'm an ex Royalist Soldier. You're totally C2, aren't you?

C2: I am.

Butler: I won't tell, and I'll check to see whether any ship leaves for France.

Next Ship for France: Won't leave for another month*

Wilmot: Okay, we can't stay here for another month.

C2: The daughter of my former nurse married a guy who lives about 40 miles from here, we could stay at here place.

They're about to leave, when:

Their hostess, Mrs. Norton: *goes into labor*

Mr. Norton: Jane Lane, as a woman, you'll surely stay and help my wife, won't you?

Jane: Err...

Pope the butler, the Jeeves of his time: *forges a letter from Jane's father saying he's seriously ill and she needs to come to him IMMEDIATELY+

Jane, C2 and Wilmot: *leave*

The gang arrives at Trent House, home of the daughter of C2's ex nurse and deflowerer.

Lord of the Manor: Good news! A tenant of mine sails for St. Malo next week! You and Wilmot can pose as merchants hunting down a debtor. But you need to switch women to escape with as cover; my niece Juliana volunteers*

Wilmot's horse: *loses a shoe*

Wilmot: *gets recognized by a Parliamentarian soldier at the blacksmith's*

Escape: is afoot again!

Wilmot and C2: stay overnight at the George Inn, Charmouth

50 Soldiers: Also arrive there.

Luckily for C2: A woman with them (the soldiers, that is) goes into labor

C2 and Wilmot: *make their escape in the commotion before anyone can recognize them (again)*

C2, Wilmot and Juliana: *go to Salisbury next; C2 also visits Stonehenge, because why not*

Wilmot: finds a Captain who agrees to take them to France on his coal boat for 80 pounds

Captain Tatersell, when he sees C2: WTF? That's C2! I want danger money! 200 pounds!

C2: Done.

Coal boat Surprise: Leaves with C2 and Wilmot, arrives safely in France.

Fritz: Some people have all the luck!

ETA: On his return to England in 1660, C2 granted a variety of annuities and gifts to some of the people who had aided him, including the Pendrell brothers and Jane Lane. Thomas Whitgreave and Richard Pendrell received annual pensions of £200, with £100 to be paid to the descendants of Richard Pendrell in perpetuity. The other Pendrell brothers received lesser pensions. Pensions to the Penderels (an alternate spelling of Pendrell) are still being paid to a number of descendants today. (Jane Lane doesn't have still living descendants.)

Edited Date: 2021-09-09 05:05 pm (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Honestly, I think the University of Selena should be given accreditation and allowed to confer degrees. :D

From:

cahn

This is so awesome and you are a jewel :D (I still can't get over how I can just be like "Here, tell me All The Things" and you're like "Okay!") These posts are totally what I was looking for in terms of getting me excited about all these people and how interesting they are <3

(SD: not the first mother to take it out on her daughter for agreeing to a below rank marriage.)

argh why are all the parents in history fandom so awful

presumably recalling the last Spanish princess who'd done that had been Catherine of Aragon

...I can see how that might have soured her on the deal, indeed :P

Buckingham fell for the young French Queen, Anne of Austria (the one from the Three Musketeers, where this event is highly plot relevant) and romanced her in public, upsetting everyone.

omg. this whole writeup is basically telling me I have to read the Three Musketeers (I actually don't know why I haven't read it -- I read Count of Monte Cristo and loved it! -- but I also admittedly had a bit from Count in my fifth grade reading book, the bit where Dantes has the idea to escape from the Chateau d'If, and was shocked to find that it's a relatively small part of the book) :P

in the England and France constellation of the day, it was C1 plus B1 versus Louis XIII and Richelieu, which meant Buckingham versus Richelieu, which was no contest at all.

LOL, ...yeah. Even I know that :D

(I haven't got a chance to watch the Horrible Histories (or other clips) or read the links, I am excited to though, that really sounds tailor-made for me, lol!)

From:

cahn

with a notable (and sensational, which is why I'm telling you about it) exception

LOL, it's like you know me or something! (although I am always interested in exceptions, because they usually turn out to be at least somewhat interesting even if they're not sensational)

Kid C2: *learns a different lesson than the adults and starts to become a cynic about humanity*

Man. I mean, poor Strafford for sure, but also poor kid.

It explains a lot about both of them, though again, they drew different lessons from it.

What would you say they learned?

"Oddsfish, I am an ugly fellow", adult C2 would cheerfully declare - but he was witty, charming and ... what was later called a chick magnet.

Ha, and this also shows he could laugh at himself, which is definitely attractive :P

but Charles II. Antonia Fraser, his biographer, famously admitted later to have developed a crush on him while writing the book.

I mean. Honestly I have a little crush on him myself after reading your "escape" writeup particularly :D

after James had come out as a Catholic.

Huhhhhh, wow, mom was really hardcore there??

C2's nurse/first governess Christabel in a circumstance that would have delighted Freud returned to his life mid Civil War when C2 was fourteen or fifteen and deflowered him.

LOL Honestly I don't need the scandalous sex bits but I do appreciate that I can always trust you to bring the actual gossipy sensationalism! HA.

(and nearly gave the game away at Dover by telling the soldiers controlling Lady Dalkeith, the lady-in-waiting in charge of her, "Je ne suis pas Pierre - suis princesse!")

okay, that is super cute, the more so because she didn't actually end up giving the game away

And his majesty spoke to him of the welfare of his soul, and to keep his religion, commanding him to fear God, and He would provide for him.

OMG. I can't EVEN about poor Henry, first his dad saying that to him and then his mom putting the thumbscrews on to convert. ARRRRRGH.

From:

cahn

This is my absolute favorite and I am dying that two different things blew up this evening (nothing terrible, but I have to go attend to them instead of talking about this which I would MUCH rather do) and I will get to this hopefully soon but in the meantime let me just say here hastily that a) you are AMAZING and b) C2 comes out pretty great here :D

From:

cahn

RIGHT??

From:

selenak

And then he dies of smallpox. :( Yes, poor Henry indeed. In the C2 miniseries' first episode, the script lets Charles point out to their mother that Dad explicitly told Henry to keep his religion, and Henrietta Maria retorts that clearly, her sainted late husband either didn't say that or if he did he meant the CATHOLIC religion he'd surely have converted to in his heart.

C2 spends a lot of time in this series headdesking between hardcore Protestant fanatics - who see "Popish plots" everywhere - and hardcore Catholic fanatics in his own family. (Mom and James, mainly.) Later on there was also this religious divide among his mistresses. One of the famous anecdotes from late in Charles' reign was when the people spotted a carriage with one of the royal mistresses inside, they first thought it was Louise de Kerroulle, Duchess of Portsmouth (French, Catholic) and yelled "Catholic Whore!", whereupon the mistress in question, Nell Gwyn, got out of the carriage and said "Good people, calm down - I am the Protestant whore!" Whereupon the people cheered her and let her pass.

Nell the actress had a similar reputation for wit as Charles did, whom she nicknamed "her Charles the Third" because two of her previous lovers also had the name Charles as their first name. When Charles died, his last words to brother James were "Be good to Portsmouth" (i.e. Louise) "and let not poor Nelly starve". Which in terms of sheer contrast to how his father died sort of sums up their different lives and mentality. :)

While I'm listing famous quotes, I'll remind you again of Charles' reaction to finding young Jack Churchill (future Duke of Marlborough, but for now, just a boytoy) with his mistress Barbara Villiers: "Young man, I forgive you, for I know you make your living this way."

And there's the famous summing up of C2 by Restoration bad boy Rochester, the son of Lord Wilmot the escape companion:

We have a pretty witty king,
Whose word no man relies on;
Who never says a foolish thing,
Nor ever does a wise one.
--

To which C2, proving Rochester's point, retorted: "This is very true: for my words are my own, and my actions are my ministers'...."

Then there's the quip which got ascribed to a couple of people after C2 as well, so it might be apocryphal: "I have always admired virtue, but I could never imitate it."

When especially annoyed with brother James, on an occasion when James told him not to be too familiar with people, because of assassination plots: "I am sure no man in England will take away my life to make you King."

Religion and sin: He [Charles II] said once to myself, he was no atheist, but he could not think God would make a man miserable only for taking a little pleasure out of the way.

and finally, on what makes a good joke vs a bad one: Good jests ought to bite like lambs, not dogs: they should cut, not wound.

On what James and Charles learned during their childhood and youth in the Civil War:

James: Dad was totally in the right, and if anything too much of a gentleman, too soft! That's what got him killed! If you give the rabble an inch, they'll take a mile! Royal pride forever! We're the champions of the uuuuuuuuniverse!

Charles: Never let yourself caught in a position without a bolthole, when in company, put people at ease, no matter whether they're nobles or commoners, even if you can't stand them, and above all, never let anyone know what you truly think. Proud declarations are for martyrs, and I have no intention of becoming one.

From:

selenak

Brushing up on the escape tale again, I found myself wondering why no one ever did a grand action movie based on it, because it does have every ingredient. I know Georgette Heyer wrote a novel focused on Jane Lane - "The Royal Escape" or something like that - and googling tells me independent from this there's a movie "The Moonraker" from 1958, but there the main character is a fictional guy who in yet another version of the Zorro/Scarlet Pimpernel/Bruce Wayne ploy is a foolish nobleman by day, daring highyway man by night and singlehandedly manages Charles' escape. But a film based on the escape without such a fictional character insert does not seem to exist.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

It was my absolute favorite too, as you can tell by the fact that it was the one I picked to dash off a sentence in reply to in the middle of my super busy work day. Hoping to reply more fully today or this weekend!

Also hoping to pick up the Pfeiffer research that I intended to do last weekend but couldn't because sciatica. (I also owe Mobster Author comments on a fic she finished writing for me last weekend!) Towards that end, Selena, help me out: what does the "Anz" in "Allg. litt. Anz." stand for, where that's the title of a book, most likely a bibliographical dictionary?

let me just say here hastily that a) you are AMAZING and b) C2 comes out pretty great here :D

Let me also say this hastily!

ETA: And speaking of weekend plans, this weekend I'm spot-checking digitized books before throwing out the pages, next weekend I'm spot-checking digitized books, and the following weekend I should be done (fingers crossed) and will be scanning the books that I found needed to be rescanned. That means in two weeks I'll probably be scanning Trench Warfare (which arrived yesterday) for you,

cahn, and, depending on how time-consuming the other stuff I need to scan is, getting started on converting Wilhelmine's travel diary into a readable format for us. I have not forgotten!

Edited Date: 2021-09-10 01:26 pm (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

So while I knew the general outlines of this part of history, I certainly didn't know this level of detail, so thank you for teaching us, and especially thank you for telling it in gripping narrative form!

One big problem. As in, a huge problem. You, C2, are a man so tall that unborn FW's heart would beat faster and he'd conscript you immediately.

I laughed SO hard.

Cook: You, wind up the jack! (Used to roast the meat in the fireplace)

C2: *has never done this before*

Cook: What kind of loser servant are you?

C2: I'm the son of people so poor that we hardly ever eat meat! That's why I've never used a roasting jack before!

Cook: *accepts that story*

This is greeeeat! And of course reminds me of Alfred the Great getting his ears boxed.

Mr. Norton: Jane Lane, as a woman, you'll surely stay and help my wife, won't you?

Jane: Err...

Pope the butler, the Jeeves of his time: *forges a letter from Jane's father saying he's seriously ill and she needs to come to him IMMEDIATELY+

Hahaha, good for 17th century Jeeves.

C2 also visits Stonehenge, because why not

Lol, omg, I was not expecting this!

Fritz: Some people have all the luck!

:(((

So I probably won't be able to reply in detail to the other posts, because German + 18C reading + my own post backlog (omg), but as always, I read and I learn and I admire! <3 (And as always, I'm grateful to

cahn for the indispensible contribution of asking all the questions I never knew I always wanted answered. :D)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

In case this got lost in the wall of text:

what does the "Anz" in "Allg. litt. Anz." stand for, where that's the title of a book, most likely a bibliographical dictionary?

Help an American detective out?

From:

cahn

Eeeeexcellent, thank you! Now that I have your amazing writeups, I don't need fiction anymore, but as mildred likes to say it certainly does help me to get multiple points of repetition for things to stick in my brain!

TV series are hard for me to watch but I will try -- it's below B5 though because I don't think I can convince E to watch it with me, lol -- but your writeup was fascinating and worth it anyway. Also, this part would have been worth it all on its own:

Also: the series has a lot about the intense yet up and down relationship between C2 and B2, where as in historical reality you conclude the only reason not to slash them is that both were the type to have sex with whomever (willing) they wanted to have, and if they would have wanted to have sex with each other, they would have.

LOL FOREVER

The King's Touch, by Jude Morgan:

This sounds lovely, and out of print; I've ordered a used copy. (lol, I think I could now make an entire shelf of books that's "books because of Selena" -- not even counting the ones mildred has digitized for me :P )

so in this case, Goldstone was wrong and wiki was right.

WHAT. Has this ever happened before?? :P :)

The next year Rupert established Hughes with a "grand building" worth £25,000 that he bought in Hammersmith from Sir Nicholas Crispe. Rupert seems rather to have enjoyed the family lifestyle, commenting that his young daughter "already rules the whole house and sometimes argues with her mother, which makes us all laugh."

Heh. Go Hughes :)

From:

cahn

(C2 learned lesson of the day: Cromwell is a way better general. If you ever want your kingdom back, it can't happen via conquest. C2 learned that lesson and waited till Cromwell was dead, his son sucked at the Protector job, and popular support for the Bring Back The Monarchy idea was overwhelming.)

I mean, I like the competent! :D

One big problem. As in, a huge problem. You, C2, are a man so tall that unborn FW's heart would beat faster and he'd conscript you immediately.

LOOOOOL

C2: *has bleeding and sore feet very quickly, but manages to keep going for three days before getting somewhere where it was possible to bind them and get other shoes*

AND he's persistent. This escape attempt, as you say below, really does have everything!!

England, Scotland and France, if you're wondering.

Yes I was, thank you!

so he has to hide in a "priest hole", one of those hiding places for Catholic priests first established when E1 reigned*

Ohhhhhh! I've read (presumably period) books where priest holes were a thing, but I never knew how they came about or why they were called priest holes!

*there meets also hiding Father Huddleston; when he finally converts to Catholicism on his deathbed, he will do so with said Father Huddleston as his admininstring priest, though how sincere that final conversion was is debated to this day*

OKAY I need more detail here!! Why did he convert?? Was it his mom again?? Why would it or wouldn't have been sincere??

"I told him that if that rogue were taken, he deserved to be hanged more than all the rest, for bringing in the Scots. Upon which he said I spoke like an honest man; and so we parted"

I think this is my favorite part of the BEST ESCAPE STORY, honestly. Charles! Also I absolutely adore that the "disguise person who stands out as servant to hide them because no one ever looks twice at servants" trope, which I love, is here and that it WORKS :D

Cook: What kind of loser servant are you?

C2: I'm the son of people so poor that we hardly ever eat meat! That's why I've never used a roasting jack before!

LOLOLOL omg Charles is the best (okay maybe this is my favorite?? who knows)

Pope the butler, the Jeeves of his time: *forges a letter from Jane's father saying he's seriously ill and she needs to come to him IMMEDIATELY+

no wait THIS is my favorite, omg. Oh, I can't decide. But this is SO COOL.

C2 also visits Stonehenge, because why not*

HAHAHAHA okay sure C2, why not

Fritz: Some people have all the luck!

Oh Fritz, I hate to break it to you, but... it wasn't just luck (although yeah, a lot of luck too). Though I guess C2 was older and more mature -- *checks dates* *blinks* Huh, C2 was only 19 or 20 when all this happened? Well, he certainly had a very different life (and escape trajectory).

C2 granted a variety of annuities and gifts to some of the people who had aided him, including the Pendrell brothers and Jane Lane

Please tell me that Pope the butler got something!

From:

selenak

Alas I can only guess. "Anzeige"? Allg. is allgemeine, and litt., literarische, but I haven't come across the shortening anz. before, and an up to date tips for new students (hasn't really changed since my time) on how to properly annotate doesn't contain it, either.

From:

felis

I suspect it might be this?

From:

selenak

Re: C2's height, to be more precise and less funny, he was 6' 2" tall (1.88 metres), at a time when average male height in England was 5' 6". He also had inherited Mediterrenean coloring from the maternal side of the family, i.e. he didn't just have black hair, he also had skin coloring that was described as "swarthy" by contemporaries and "olive-skinned" by novelists, also something less than usual in England at this point in history. All of which was noted in the "Wanted!" descriptions given, so him posing as a servant really must have been a life saver.

Since you are a fan of maps. Today, Charles' convoluted 40 days escape route makes for a popular hiking trip, and a website detailing it has a map:

Some more detailed accounts of Charles' escape online: See here and here.

Slight parallels to the Alfred story: LOL, yes. Conclusion: don't hire escaping royals to do the cooking! If you do write your Fritz escapes AU, keep him far from the kitchen.

Stonehenge: Yeah, I know. When I read "Though sleeping at Heale, Charles spent his days at Stonehenge, returning to the house each evening after dark", I knew I had to include this touristy escapade. I mean, I sympathize. Stonehenge is quite something! And he may have been aware he'd never get the chance again, even if he regained his throne. (Salisbury: not a typical place to visit for Kings on progress.) But still.

From:

selenak

Alas I don't know whether Pope the Butler got something, since he's not listed by name in the accounts I looked up (my copy of Frasers C2 biography is in Munich, and I'm in Bamberg), but I expect so - C2 was a generous guy and seems to have tried to reward all the people who helped him.

Priest holes have their own wiki entry, complete with the one Charles was hidden in. (The one at Boscobel House, since there are photos of three examples.) (BTW, Father Huddleston gave him his place (there wasn't room for more than one person in them), which with the Puritans newly victorious really was very noble and potentially self sacrificial.

OKAY I need more detail here!! Why did he convert?? Was it his mom again?? Why would it or wouldn't have been sincere??

No, Mom had nothing to do with it, and not just because she was long since dead. Major reasons for the debate:

1) Like many a king not FW or Fritz, Charles had a cash flow problem, especially after the triple blows of having lost a war with the Dutch, the Plague and the Great Fire of London on the one hand, and being a big spender on the other hand. (Not just on mistresses. He also was a major supporter of the sciences and art. But cheap, this was not.) And remember, Parliament held the strings of the royal purse. Which had been one of the many factors in the Civil War. However, just on the other side of the channel was cousin Louis XIV. The ultra Catholic, absolute, and having no compunction to spend money (as his subjects would find out) on whatever he wanted. Also, Charles' favourite sister Minette, married to Louis' brother Philippe the Gay to their mutual misery, was kind of C2's unofficial ambassador at Versailles. (There were official English envoys, of course, but Minette has the one entrusted with the very very secret thing about to unfold.) So Minette brokered the Treaty of Dover, the official part of which was a mutual aid and assistance contract where Charles promised to side with Louis against the Dutch. (Whom he'd been warring with unsuccesfully before but then had reconciled with, not least because his nephew William of Orange (the most famous to hold that name, the future King of England) had come of age and was rapidly turning into a thorn in Louis' side (as in, no more willing to let Louis run rampant over the Netherlands than his regents had been). The unofficial, secret part of the Treaty of Dover was that in exchange of a considerable yearly pension from Louis, Charles promised to convert to Catholicism "if the state of the Kingdom permitted it" and if the expected uproar would happen would accept Louis' troops to help quell said uproar in England. As it happened, Charles converted about five minutes before he died, after years and years of cash from Louis without converting or making the slightest move to do so, thereby technically fulfilling his promise but as to whether he meant it... BTW, since his subjects couldn't be sure he'd do this, of course had this treaty been known to the public there'd been Civil War, Part II. It was an incredible risky thing to do. (And a reason why this additional clause to the Treaty of Dover was so super secret, not just on the English but also on the French side. Minette and Louis knew, but Philippe did not. (And did majorly resent his wife being sent on diplomatic missions to England anyway.)) However, it did pay off for Charles, not just in terms of having more cash, but having more independence from Parliament.

2.) The story of Charles' death bed conversion was told by brother James the Ultra Catholic fanatic. According to James, he brought Father Huddleston to Charles saying "Sire, this good man once saved your life. He now comes to save your soul", Charles expresses the wish to die the Catholic Faith, Father Huddleston hears his confession and provides Extreme Unction, Charles dies. (Father Huddleston remained with Charles' widow Catherine till his own death.) In James' account, this was an utterly sincere conversion. But then, James both as a hardcore Catholic himself and as a monarch had every reason in the world to present it as such, not as something which had anything to do with the Treaty of Dover. (Let's not forget, cousin Louis XIV was alive and well and would outlive both brothers.)

3.) This said, C2 sincerely respected and was grateful to Huddleston, and all the Catholics who'd risked life and limb to help him, and even after a life time of being the one family member who really was meh personally about religion (either variation) could have felt the wish to convert as he was dying.

4.) Though we're talking about a man who still quipped on his deathbed. In addition to the aforementioned "be good to Portsmouth, and let not poor Nelly starve", there's also, to the rest of the people who like James were surrounding his death bed: He had been, he said, an unconscionable time dying but he hoped that they would excuse it.

Young Fritz and young Charles weren't that much apart in age, true, though in fairness the circumstances of their respective escapes or non-escapes were truly very, very different. Fritz didn't have a small but loyal network of underground Catholics coming to his aide, and he never made it far enough to be aided anyway. Otoh, Fritz wasn't on the run after a lost battle in a country where he was on top of the "WANTED!" list, and he had months to prepare, whereas Charles had to improvise after losing the battle.

Edited Date: 2021-09-11 09:17 am (UTC)

From:

selenak

Mes amies, book trailer for the Nancy Goldstone book about MT and three of her daughters: here. My beta-reading pal

kathyh pointed it out to me, worriedly adding that she didn't know whether I would agree with the Fritz characterisation. Well, wisecracking and doubledealing certainly is true; amoral, otoh, is debatable. :) Oh, and the Isabella/Mimi affair seems to be covered in detail.

(Also I'm not sure about Maria Carolina starting the golden age of Naples, given that, well, there was a FREAKING REVOLUTION long before Napoleon became a problem which was only put down by bloody British intervention courtesy of Nelson and Emma Hamilton. But Maria Carolina certainly was one of the smartest and most energetic of MT's offsprings.)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Well, wisecracking and doubledealing certainly is true; amoral, otoh, is debatable. :)

Hahahahaaaa, this is such an awesome description. I'll concede as far as "amoral"; there was a fair bit of raison d'état and raison de Fritz in his actions. :P But "hopelessly amoral," no. In my view, he was too complex for that.

Also, I wish to point out that MT sometimes benefitted from the doubledealing, like when he abandoned the French to make separate peaces with her. Or as Macaulay put it, "His first object was to rob the Queen of Hungary. His second was that, if possible, nobody should rob her but himself." :P

But Maria Carolina certainly was one of the smartest and most energetic of MT's offsprings.)

I'm definitely looking forward to learning more about her, I've been wanting a well-written take on her for a while, beyond what Horowski provides.

ViennaJoe poses some stiff competition for most energetic, though. ;)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Re: C2's height, to be more precise and less funny, he was 6' 2" tall (1.88 metres), at a time when average male height in England was 5' 6".

Which, to be more precise and less funny, is just over the 6' cutoff for the Potsdam Giants, so while FW would definitely have kidnapped him, C2 wouldn't have stood out in the crowd of giants.

I am a fan of maps, thank you!

Slight parallels to the Alfred story: LOL, yes. Conclusion: don't hire escaping royals to do the cooking! If you do write your Fritz escapes AU, keep him far from the kitchen.

A shame Louis XV never had to escape! He was, as we learned, the monarch who took up cooking as his hobby and learned, among other things, to make omelettes.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

And the prize goes to Sherlock Holmes! Not only was that the volume I was looking for, but the contents turned out to be the missing puzzle piece from last weekend's research.

I think I know what's going on with Pfeiffer's dates, will try to do a write-up soonish.

In other news, I've finished cobbling together passages from the various times we've talked about the MT marriage AU. I just want to organize them better and include some transitions, and then I'll post in Rheinsberg. I've only been meaning to do this for a year, and I've been chipping away at the post for a couple months now...

Edited Date: 2021-09-11 11:39 pm (UTC)