Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 30
Sep. 8th, 2021 09:52 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cahnIn which, despite the title, I would like to be told about the English Revolution, which is yet another casualty of my extremely poor history education :P :)
Also, this is probably the place to say that RMSE opened with three Fritz-fics, all of which I think are readable with minimum canon knowledge:
The Boy Who Lived - if you knew about the doomed escape-from-Prussia-that-didn't happen and tragic death of Fritz's boyfriend Hans Hermann von Katte, you may not have known about Peter Keith, the third young man who conspired to escape Prussia -- and the only one who actually did. This is his story. I think readable without canon knowledge except what I just said here.
Challenge Yourself to Relax - My gift, I posted about this before! Corporate AU with my problematic fave, Fritz' brother Heinrich, who's still Fritz's l'autre moi-meme even in corporate AU. Readable without canon knowledge if one has familiarity with the corporate world and the dysfunctions thereof.
The Rise and Fall of the RendezvousWithFame Exchange - Fandom AU with BNF fanfic writer Voltaire, exchange mod Fritz, and the inevitable meltdown. (I wrote this one and am quite proud of the terrible physics-adjacent pun contained within.) Readable without canon knowledge if one has familiarity with fandom and the dysfunctions thereof :P
Also, this is probably the place to say that RMSE opened with three Fritz-fics, all of which I think are readable with minimum canon knowledge:
The Boy Who Lived - if you knew about the doomed escape-from-Prussia-that-didn't happen and tragic death of Fritz's boyfriend Hans Hermann von Katte, you may not have known about Peter Keith, the third young man who conspired to escape Prussia -- and the only one who actually did. This is his story. I think readable without canon knowledge except what I just said here.
Challenge Yourself to Relax - My gift, I posted about this before! Corporate AU with my problematic fave, Fritz' brother Heinrich, who's still Fritz's l'autre moi-meme even in corporate AU. Readable without canon knowledge if one has familiarity with the corporate world and the dysfunctions thereof.
The Rise and Fall of the RendezvousWithFame Exchange - Fandom AU with BNF fanfic writer Voltaire, exchange mod Fritz, and the inevitable meltdown. (I wrote this one and am quite proud of the terrible physics-adjacent pun contained within.) Readable without canon knowledge if one has familiarity with fandom and the dysfunctions thereof :P
Re: Goldstone Ch 5-6
Date: 2021-09-26 08:45 pm (UTC)-Count Emanuel da Silva-Tarouca being engaged to critique her
Not sure. SR says she asked him for advice and he was one of the few people she trusted not to be a flatterer, and SR repeats at greath length the schedule he came up with for MT, but my German is weeeeaak, and so if SR also says she formally employed him to critique her on a regular basis as opposed to treated him as a trusted advisor whose criticism she was willing to listen to...that could very well be. Talk to me in a year when I can read German better. :P
-Was Haugwitz really that cool?
Hahaha, well, Haugwitz shows up largely in the reforms section of SR, which as you recall is the section I struggled with for a while before giving up and moving on. Talk to me in a year when I can read German better. :P
-What's this thing about Fritz pawning his chandeliers?
Not ringing a bell, but I haven't got to this part yet, so I'll keep an eye out for it.
-Was MT more anti-Semitic than, idk, the average person on the street? Were her closest councillors trying to modulate it?
Like Selena says, hard to tell. As 18th century rulers go, there were definitely some who were more anti-Semitic and some who were less anti-Semitic. She may have been more passionate and outspoken about it, because of her sense of a religious mission, as opposed to "Well of course Jews suck and we don't want them around if we can help it" (e.g., Fritz)? It's also possible that her religious convictions also made her less willing to compromise than other anti-Semites who were tempted by the thought of $$$. But I couldn't say. (My vague, vague memory from SR was that MT was pretty hardcore about her anti-Semitism, but don't hold me to that.)
-Huh, I didn't know that about Washington, did he really sign a confession admitting to murder without realizing that was what he was doing?
I haven't got to this part, but this is news to me!
-"Frederick's charming new philosophy of military opportunism... had already caught on and sparked imitation." I, um. Don't think Fritz invented the idea of military opportunism.
Okay SO. There's going to be a thread on this. :P
(With another author I might assume they mean in this particular situation, but I never know with her??)
Even if she means this particular situation, I'm reminded of Macaulay's:
On the head of Frederick is all the blood which was shed in a war which raged during many years and in every quarter of the globe—the blood of the column of Fontenoy, the blood of the brave mountaineers who were slaughtered at Culloden. The evils produced by this wickedness were felt in lands where the name of Prussia was unknown; and, in order that he might rob a neighbor whom he had promised to defend, black men fought on the coast of Coromandel, and red men scalped each other by the great lakes of North America.
which made both Selena's and my jaw drop. Fritz made the first move in the war, therefore he is to blame for everyone else's actions, including those that predated his existence (like colonialism and Jacobitism). Fritz is to blame for his own actions, not everyone else's!
-Philip V's government being controlled by Elizabeth, didn't we have a whole salon thread on this
We did, but I'm not going to fault Goldstone for this, because 1) she's in the majority, I've only seen one person question the standard take, 2) Spain isn't what she's writing about, 3) her casual take on Elizabeth dominating Philip beats Blanning's mental-illness-stigmatizing diatribe by a mile.
-"the brave king of Prussia, who had started this whole mess, had escaped back to the comfort and safety of Berlin." I know you don't like him AND he's in the wrong here, Goldstone, but, um, he's actually... kind of known for being brave??
Right, and I got to this part, and like, she's talking about December? I.e., winter quarters? When the campaigning season was over and people who could afford to went on leave? The brave part is sticking around for the campaigning season and participating in the battles, which he did!
more so than for his relationship with Voltaire, I bet actuallyHAHAHA.
There's like a famous painting and stuff??
Oooh, look at you knowing stuff! *applauds* Felis, she's talking about Röchling's Zorndorf painting.
-"She did not covet the imperial throne for herself... it was only right that Francis should have it. She coudln't retrieve Lorraine for her husband... but she could do this for him." UM. I FEEL LIKE SHE IS MISSING THE POINT ENTIRELY.
ZOMG. SR has a whole part where MT adopted the imperial insignia for herself, which she points out would be treason if anyone else did it, but FS chose not to prosecute. :P And yeah, wielded the power, and was referred to as the Holy Roman Empress as if in her own right. And as Selena said, she couldn't have gotten the title without a man to act as the figurehead! (Goldstone: "She did not covet the imperial throne for herself." Yes. Yes, she did.)
There *was* a part where getting FS the title solved a whole lot of protocol problems and meant less ongoing humilation for him, made it easier for MT and FS to appear in public together, etc., but that also had nothing to do with Lorraine. I mean, the whole idea was that he would give up Lorraine because he was the heir apparent to the empire via his marriage to her, but Goldstone makes it sound like Lorraine was gratuitously taken away from him and then MT had to comfort his hurt feelings.
BALANCE OF POWER.
(Which incidentally has a lot to do with why various parties in Fritz's wars didn't exterminate each other or support each other as fully as they could. Fritz wanted Silesia, he didn't want France dominating Germany at the expense of Austria. Ditto how France felt about him. And in the Seven Years' War, there are reasons the Russians didn't destroy Prussia, and one of them had to do with not wanting to turn Austria into a superpower. Etc. ("His first object was to rob the Queen of Hungary. His second was that, if possible, nobody should rob her but himself," is hilariously phrased, but really means "balance of power."))
-Side-eyeing "making [Mme Pompadour] feel as thoguh she was an integral component of the balance of power in Europe" -- makes it sound like she WASN'T?
Oh, look, she knows the phrase "balance of power", she just doesn't know how to apply it to actual developments!
Okay, so, I haven't got to this part yet, but since it sounds like we're talking about the Diplomatic Revolution...I initially always learned that Pompadour was the driving force behind that, and then Blanning (I think) came along and said it's unknown whether she had any influence on foreign policy or was just blamed for unpopular moves like siding with France's archenemy. And then Horowski repeatedly said the mistresses in France were blamed for any unpopular move made by the king or made by anyone else and not overridden by the king. So I don't actually know any more. But the way she phrases it in your quote definitely sets my teeth on edge. Blanning at least "we don't know."
BWAHAHAHA. That's... one way of characterizing that whole thing, and I know whose way it is, too.
Hahahaha. To be fair, this is the case where there was a definite imbalance of power, and whatever Voltaire did or said about Fritz, he didn't have the ability to lock him up arbitrarily. Buuuut, yeah, Voltaire was no angel during the 1750-1753 period! Which you would totally miss from that summary.
But it's certainly true that the Austrian Jesuits in the late 17th and in the 18th century were refusing to deal with any of the new thoughts and developments, with the result that their education really was hopelessly outdated and old fashioned.
What I was going to say.
Re: Goldstone Ch 5-6
Date: 2021-09-28 04:40 am (UTC)Yeah, I was like ????
Okay, so, I haven't got to this part yet, but since it sounds like we're talking about the Diplomatic Revolution...I initially always learned that Pompadour was the driving force behind that, and then Blanning (I think) came along and said it's unknown whether she had any influence on foreign policy or was just blamed for unpopular moves like siding with France's archenemy. And then Horowski repeatedly said the mistresses in France were blamed for any unpopular move made by the king or made by anyone else and not overridden by the king. So I don't actually know any more. But the way she phrases it in your quote definitely sets my teeth on edge. Blanning at least "we don't know."
Yeah, the thing is. It's not so much whether Mme Pompadour was the driving force or not (although! I would like to know this!) and more Goldstone's phrasing which implies that all of this happened because Kaunitz flattered her into "feeling" that she was powerful. I think if it hadn't been for all the MT "don't want the throne for myself" stuff this wouldn't have pinged me so hard, but it's like Goldstone can't actually let women wield power in the spheres in which they could in fact wield power, it's really weird!
To be fair, this is the case where there was a definite imbalance of power, and whatever Voltaire did or said about Fritz, he didn't have the ability to lock him up arbitrarily. Buuuut, yeah, Voltaire was no angel during the 1750-1753 period! Which you would totally miss from that summary.
That is totally fair, but I also think this is absolutely hilarious because in fact Goldstone's summary of Voltaire-and-Fritz is actually a rather accurate summary of Pamela, all these things just happening to an aggrieved Voltaire :) It's not wrong, it's just... leaving out a lot. In a particular direction :)
ETA: Of course, as Selena said, Goldstone does leave out all Voltaire's lines about how Fritz seduced him, etc. and I agree, Voltaire would have been disappointed! Also, I hadn't noticed this before, but now that Selena reminded me about Alcina, Voltaire does bring up Alcine references a couple of times, lol.
Re: Goldstone Ch 5-6
Date: 2021-09-29 04:05 pm (UTC)More seriously, it's not her main subject, and only losely connected, so her taking Voltaire's summary on faith is way more okay than the kitchen psychology applied to the MT/FS marriage which is far more central to her story. I.e. I mind that FS's letter on marriage to Leopold indicating his own attitude to marriage and what he thought a husband should be didn't make the cut (so far), while I'm just amused at the rendition of the grand Fritz/Voltaire fallout (and that she seems to think this was it for their relationship).
Something else: all this insistence that MT knew Fritz would come again for her sooner or later, so she came for him first (by building a trap): is again as biased as the pro Prussian versions where Fritz was all innocence, wanting to live out the rest of his life in blissful peace, when the evil woman provokes him into war. And possibly even less realistic. I mean, I can buy MT thought that he would. Though mainly I think her motivation remained what it had been: getting Silesia back. (My Dad: SHE BROKE EVERY TREATY SHE SIGNED WITH HIM. WHY IS VALORY CALLING HIM A LIAR AND NOT HER?!?) Not preventing a future Fritz attack. Otoh, as to whether Fritz would have started another war with Austria on his own initiative without the Diplomatic Revolution - you know, I don't think so. Not because he would have wanted to live in peace for the rest of his life, but because the specific territory he had his eyes on - Saxony and the parts of Poland between East Prussia and the main realm - were not MT's property.
Re: Goldstone Ch 5-6
Date: 2021-09-30 05:01 am (UTC)YES THIS. I have to admit that with the Fritz/Voltaire thing I mostly think it's hilarious that Voltaire has managed to troll this hard across time and space :D But UGH I am really annoyed that Goldstone is writing about MT and can't manage to give her the credit of actually being a powerful woman and not someone who is always sucking up to her husband about something that, if he'd actually been sulking about it his whole life, would have made him a total brat (which he wasn't! and that awesome letter that you bring up!). The actual facts are way more interesting than the kitchen psychology!
Something else: all this insistence that MT knew Fritz would come again for her sooner or later, so she came for him first (by building a trap): is again as biased as the pro Prussian versions where Fritz was all innocence, wanting to live out the rest of his life in blissful peace, when the evil woman provokes him into war. And possibly even less realistic.
Ah! I'm glad you weighed in here -- I got a little confused by what to believe in this part. Also, lol your dad! <3 But seriously -- I got lost here too, maybe I was reading too fast but I got the impression from Goldstone that MT didn't break the treaty she signed with Fritz because Fritz attacked her side first? But that's not true?
Re: Goldstone Ch 5-6
Date: 2021-09-30 05:11 am (UTC)The big difference of Goldstone's claim is that she had to do this because Fritz otherwise would have attacked her anyway. And that's, imo, pretty unlikely, not because of the goodness of his nature but because he had his eyes on non-Austrian territory, like I said. Why not say MT did it because she wanted Silesia back (and Fritz defeated, preferably as powerless as possible) without the "preemptive protection" claim? Too unsympathetic for an US audience?