Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 30
Sep. 8th, 2021 09:52 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cahnIn which, despite the title, I would like to be told about the English Revolution, which is yet another casualty of my extremely poor history education :P :)
Also, this is probably the place to say that RMSE opened with three Fritz-fics, all of which I think are readable with minimum canon knowledge:
The Boy Who Lived - if you knew about the doomed escape-from-Prussia-that-didn't happen and tragic death of Fritz's boyfriend Hans Hermann von Katte, you may not have known about Peter Keith, the third young man who conspired to escape Prussia -- and the only one who actually did. This is his story. I think readable without canon knowledge except what I just said here.
Challenge Yourself to Relax - My gift, I posted about this before! Corporate AU with my problematic fave, Fritz' brother Heinrich, who's still Fritz's l'autre moi-meme even in corporate AU. Readable without canon knowledge if one has familiarity with the corporate world and the dysfunctions thereof.
The Rise and Fall of the RendezvousWithFame Exchange - Fandom AU with BNF fanfic writer Voltaire, exchange mod Fritz, and the inevitable meltdown. (I wrote this one and am quite proud of the terrible physics-adjacent pun contained within.) Readable without canon knowledge if one has familiarity with fandom and the dysfunctions thereof :P
Also, this is probably the place to say that RMSE opened with three Fritz-fics, all of which I think are readable with minimum canon knowledge:
The Boy Who Lived - if you knew about the doomed escape-from-Prussia-that-didn't happen and tragic death of Fritz's boyfriend Hans Hermann von Katte, you may not have known about Peter Keith, the third young man who conspired to escape Prussia -- and the only one who actually did. This is his story. I think readable without canon knowledge except what I just said here.
Challenge Yourself to Relax - My gift, I posted about this before! Corporate AU with my problematic fave, Fritz' brother Heinrich, who's still Fritz's l'autre moi-meme even in corporate AU. Readable without canon knowledge if one has familiarity with the corporate world and the dysfunctions thereof.
The Rise and Fall of the RendezvousWithFame Exchange - Fandom AU with BNF fanfic writer Voltaire, exchange mod Fritz, and the inevitable meltdown. (I wrote this one and am quite proud of the terrible physics-adjacent pun contained within.) Readable without canon knowledge if one has familiarity with fandom and the dysfunctions thereof :P
Re: Goldstone Ch 5-6
Date: 2021-09-28 04:40 am (UTC)Yeah, I was like ????
Okay, so, I haven't got to this part yet, but since it sounds like we're talking about the Diplomatic Revolution...I initially always learned that Pompadour was the driving force behind that, and then Blanning (I think) came along and said it's unknown whether she had any influence on foreign policy or was just blamed for unpopular moves like siding with France's archenemy. And then Horowski repeatedly said the mistresses in France were blamed for any unpopular move made by the king or made by anyone else and not overridden by the king. So I don't actually know any more. But the way she phrases it in your quote definitely sets my teeth on edge. Blanning at least "we don't know."
Yeah, the thing is. It's not so much whether Mme Pompadour was the driving force or not (although! I would like to know this!) and more Goldstone's phrasing which implies that all of this happened because Kaunitz flattered her into "feeling" that she was powerful. I think if it hadn't been for all the MT "don't want the throne for myself" stuff this wouldn't have pinged me so hard, but it's like Goldstone can't actually let women wield power in the spheres in which they could in fact wield power, it's really weird!
To be fair, this is the case where there was a definite imbalance of power, and whatever Voltaire did or said about Fritz, he didn't have the ability to lock him up arbitrarily. Buuuut, yeah, Voltaire was no angel during the 1750-1753 period! Which you would totally miss from that summary.
That is totally fair, but I also think this is absolutely hilarious because in fact Goldstone's summary of Voltaire-and-Fritz is actually a rather accurate summary of Pamela, all these things just happening to an aggrieved Voltaire :) It's not wrong, it's just... leaving out a lot. In a particular direction :)
ETA: Of course, as Selena said, Goldstone does leave out all Voltaire's lines about how Fritz seduced him, etc. and I agree, Voltaire would have been disappointed! Also, I hadn't noticed this before, but now that Selena reminded me about Alcina, Voltaire does bring up Alcine references a couple of times, lol.
Re: Goldstone Ch 5-6
Date: 2021-09-29 04:05 pm (UTC)More seriously, it's not her main subject, and only losely connected, so her taking Voltaire's summary on faith is way more okay than the kitchen psychology applied to the MT/FS marriage which is far more central to her story. I.e. I mind that FS's letter on marriage to Leopold indicating his own attitude to marriage and what he thought a husband should be didn't make the cut (so far), while I'm just amused at the rendition of the grand Fritz/Voltaire fallout (and that she seems to think this was it for their relationship).
Something else: all this insistence that MT knew Fritz would come again for her sooner or later, so she came for him first (by building a trap): is again as biased as the pro Prussian versions where Fritz was all innocence, wanting to live out the rest of his life in blissful peace, when the evil woman provokes him into war. And possibly even less realistic. I mean, I can buy MT thought that he would. Though mainly I think her motivation remained what it had been: getting Silesia back. (My Dad: SHE BROKE EVERY TREATY SHE SIGNED WITH HIM. WHY IS VALORY CALLING HIM A LIAR AND NOT HER?!?) Not preventing a future Fritz attack. Otoh, as to whether Fritz would have started another war with Austria on his own initiative without the Diplomatic Revolution - you know, I don't think so. Not because he would have wanted to live in peace for the rest of his life, but because the specific territory he had his eyes on - Saxony and the parts of Poland between East Prussia and the main realm - were not MT's property.
Re: Goldstone Ch 5-6
Date: 2021-09-30 05:01 am (UTC)YES THIS. I have to admit that with the Fritz/Voltaire thing I mostly think it's hilarious that Voltaire has managed to troll this hard across time and space :D But UGH I am really annoyed that Goldstone is writing about MT and can't manage to give her the credit of actually being a powerful woman and not someone who is always sucking up to her husband about something that, if he'd actually been sulking about it his whole life, would have made him a total brat (which he wasn't! and that awesome letter that you bring up!). The actual facts are way more interesting than the kitchen psychology!
Something else: all this insistence that MT knew Fritz would come again for her sooner or later, so she came for him first (by building a trap): is again as biased as the pro Prussian versions where Fritz was all innocence, wanting to live out the rest of his life in blissful peace, when the evil woman provokes him into war. And possibly even less realistic.
Ah! I'm glad you weighed in here -- I got a little confused by what to believe in this part. Also, lol your dad! <3 But seriously -- I got lost here too, maybe I was reading too fast but I got the impression from Goldstone that MT didn't break the treaty she signed with Fritz because Fritz attacked her side first? But that's not true?
Re: Goldstone Ch 5-6
Date: 2021-09-30 05:11 am (UTC)The big difference of Goldstone's claim is that she had to do this because Fritz otherwise would have attacked her anyway. And that's, imo, pretty unlikely, not because of the goodness of his nature but because he had his eyes on non-Austrian territory, like I said. Why not say MT did it because she wanted Silesia back (and Fritz defeated, preferably as powerless as possible) without the "preemptive protection" claim? Too unsympathetic for an US audience?