Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 30
Sep. 8th, 2021 09:52 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cahnIn which, despite the title, I would like to be told about the English Revolution, which is yet another casualty of my extremely poor history education :P :)
Also, this is probably the place to say that RMSE opened with three Fritz-fics, all of which I think are readable with minimum canon knowledge:
The Boy Who Lived - if you knew about the doomed escape-from-Prussia-that-didn't happen and tragic death of Fritz's boyfriend Hans Hermann von Katte, you may not have known about Peter Keith, the third young man who conspired to escape Prussia -- and the only one who actually did. This is his story. I think readable without canon knowledge except what I just said here.
Challenge Yourself to Relax - My gift, I posted about this before! Corporate AU with my problematic fave, Fritz' brother Heinrich, who's still Fritz's l'autre moi-meme even in corporate AU. Readable without canon knowledge if one has familiarity with the corporate world and the dysfunctions thereof.
The Rise and Fall of the RendezvousWithFame Exchange - Fandom AU with BNF fanfic writer Voltaire, exchange mod Fritz, and the inevitable meltdown. (I wrote this one and am quite proud of the terrible physics-adjacent pun contained within.) Readable without canon knowledge if one has familiarity with fandom and the dysfunctions thereof :P
Also, this is probably the place to say that RMSE opened with three Fritz-fics, all of which I think are readable with minimum canon knowledge:
The Boy Who Lived - if you knew about the doomed escape-from-Prussia-that-didn't happen and tragic death of Fritz's boyfriend Hans Hermann von Katte, you may not have known about Peter Keith, the third young man who conspired to escape Prussia -- and the only one who actually did. This is his story. I think readable without canon knowledge except what I just said here.
Challenge Yourself to Relax - My gift, I posted about this before! Corporate AU with my problematic fave, Fritz' brother Heinrich, who's still Fritz's l'autre moi-meme even in corporate AU. Readable without canon knowledge if one has familiarity with the corporate world and the dysfunctions thereof.
The Rise and Fall of the RendezvousWithFame Exchange - Fandom AU with BNF fanfic writer Voltaire, exchange mod Fritz, and the inevitable meltdown. (I wrote this one and am quite proud of the terrible physics-adjacent pun contained within.) Readable without canon knowledge if one has familiarity with fandom and the dysfunctions thereof :P
Re: Reading group: In the Shadow of the Empress
Date: 2021-09-24 03:21 pm (UTC)And then the diplomacy of the 1720s. And then MT and Franz. (I mean, if you've read even as far into Stollberg-Rilinger as I have (about a third?), you're already severely side-eying this and that.) But I kept telling myself, "Okay, but this is the intro, surely when she gets into her *period*, it gets better."
Then I had to do some errands, work, etc. Now I've read the Fritz chapter and I'm like...is there a point to continuing this book? With this quality of scholarship?
(Man, I hope the Winter Queen wasn't this bad. Because that book was specifically to fill in my weak points of history, so I wouldn't catch these things. And if the Maria Carolina and Maria Christina sections are *this* bad, I won't catch it either.)
:(
Maybe I'll just go work on my German so I can someday finish SR.
Re: Reading group: In the Shadow of the Empress
Date: 2021-09-24 04:03 pm (UTC)That's too bad about the War of Spanish Succession, because I thought it was presented in a way that was interesting and understandable to me. Too bad it was a WRONG way :P (And, like, there's a way to do understandable but simplified! You guys have been doing it for me for years now!)
Ugh. I'm okay with stopping reading it and returning my kindle copy (I sort of don't want to reward her for writing inaccurate books??) if you guys want, and waiting for whenever the SR translation comes out (do we actually think it will come out in January? I'm not super hopeful, given the number of times it's been pushed back already and my previous experiences waiting for academic books to come out), though that one I definitely will read more slowly :P
Re: Reading group: In the Shadow of the Empress
Date: 2021-09-24 04:57 pm (UTC)I'm torn. I can do much better wrt MT, but I really want to know about the daughters. And I'm of the opinion that you have to read wrong things in order to expand your knowledge. And the less you know, the less it matters if it's wrong (unless it's something like "should you get vaccinated," then you should be learning right things :P). So at some level, even if Winter Queen was *this* bad, I still learned a lot of basic things that are confirmed by Wikipedia :P that I didn't know.
So *maybe* it's worth sticking with this book just to get some knowledge about the two more obscure daughters. But good God, going in knowing that it might be *this* bad...What if it's all from Voltaire?! :P (Or the equivalent.)
I'm undecided.
I will say that even if my German is still a bit of a struggle whenever the Stollberg-Rilinger translation comes out, it will help if we're reading together.
Re: Reading group: In the Shadow of the Empress
Date: 2021-09-24 05:10 pm (UTC)Re: Reading group: In the Shadow of the Empress
Date: 2021-09-24 08:04 pm (UTC)Since it just so happened that I saw the repeatedly mentionened docu series Age of Iron about the 30 Years War basically at the same time I read her book, I also had the sense that the basic facts there were accurate, with just one drastic bias betraying difference I spotted, to wit:
NG: Elizabeth and Friedrich were popular and beloved in Bohemia until having to flee the city. Sure, there was am minor upset over some statues Friedrich ordered to be taken down, but that was quickly over as the Catholics approached...
Die Eiserne Zeit: Elizabeth and Friedrich were popular and beloved until Friedrich the Calvinist started order Prague's patron saints statues being taken down and the beautiful Cranach altar in the cathedral destroyed which was a major insult to local feeling as well as being a great loss to art. Suddenly, Bohemians were far less motivated to fight for their new royals, and that definitely was a factor when the Imperial army showed up!
And since I had read Sophie's memoirs, from which she quotes a lot, the rendition of the Stuart-Palatinate clan (their personalities etc.) struck me as pretty source faithful to it there. Though who knows what I missed!
Anyway, should we continue with the book: I vote yes, for the entertainment value alone. I mean, she can tell a good story. And us getting upset over our pet peeve inaccuraces is good mental training to renember the actual circumstances. :)
Re: Reading group: In the Shadow of the Empress
Date: 2021-09-24 08:10 pm (UTC)Right, I remember that.
Also, is it normal to refer to Elizabeth as the Queen of Bohemia decades after she's stopped being any such thing? I know it distinguishes her from her daughter, but it felt a bit like referring to James II as the King of England in 1700.
And us getting upset over our pet peeve inaccuraces is good mental training to renember the actual circumstances. :)
I was thinking this. :) I'm writing up a Spanish Succession rant as we speak! It should be helpful for
Okay, let us continue! We've had more activity in salon today than we have in recent memory. ;)
(Somebody yell at me to do German today, though, I can't spend the *whole* day going on about 3 chapters of Goldstone. I have German to learn, several other books to read, and a Peter Keith essay to write. Clearly we need to do this book extra slowly, because it clearly involves a lot of research and writing. I might limit myself to Friday-Sunday. ;))
Re: Reading group: In the Shadow of the Empress
Date: 2021-09-24 08:23 pm (UTC)True, though in Elizabeth's case her contemporaries actually did it (if they were Protestants, that is; Catholics had never recognized her as such to begin with), including her daughter in her memoirs. I also dimly recall her being referred to as the Queen of Bohemia when she died in London. It's not unprecedented, even James aside; Christina was still referred to as "The Queen of Sweden" decades after her abdication, for example.
Consider yourself yelled at. You could try the Zweig chapter I linked you to, the one about Scott and the Race to the North Pole. That's shorter than the Goldstone you've read so far!
Re: Reading group: In the Shadow of the Empress
Date: 2021-09-24 08:27 pm (UTC)Re: Reading group: In the Shadow of the Empress
Date: 2021-09-24 08:45 pm (UTC)I can also read slower -- actually it's not the reading that's the problem, it's the writing it up afterwards that's very time-intensive for me, I don't have time for this either :)
Yeah, see, you guys have been telling me about Fritz (and for that matter about the Potsdam Giants :P ) for two years, I've only got the Spanish Succession thing once, I need it more times :P
okay but go do German now instead of writing up the Spanish Succession, I can wait :PP
The War of the Spanish Succession, or "Secret Habsburg" Goldstone
Date: 2021-09-24 10:04 pm (UTC)It was way more succinct and clear than anything I wrote! It's just that it's written such that if Goldstone were a secret Habsburg like Jon Snow is a secret Targaryen, it would explain a lot about her politics.
It's to the point where I'm going to have to look like a Louis XIV supporter just to set the record straight. Which, let's be clear, I'm not. I don't really think there was much to choose between Philip V and Charles VI as rulers of Spain, and the tragic part is the sheer amount of bloodshed. But I'm having to write in opposition to a stance that it's OBVIOUSLY Charles's throne that the Bourbons stole, so I'm going to look like a Bourbon partisan here.
See what you make me do, Goldstone? :P
Okay, so I'm going to open with an analogy here.
Henrietta Maria: Obviously my husband is your role model as king.
Blanning: Yeah, what she said!
Literally everyone else: ...But he lost his head?
Leopold I, a Habsburg: Once a Habsburg territory, always a Habsburg territory. Obviously.
Goldstone (secret Habsburg): What Leopold said!
Literally everyone else: ...Does the term "balance of power" mean anything to you?
"Balance of power" was the principle that drove the War of the Spanish Succession, and which does not seem to be in Goldstone's geopolitical vocabulary.
Once upon a time, back in the 16th century, Charles V, he on whose empire the sun did not set, divided that empire. His son Philip II got Spain, the Spanish Netherlands, the overseas possessions, some of the other stuff, especially in Italy. Ferdinand got Austria, the Holy Roman Empire (not hereditary de jure, but de facto pretty much), etc.
So now we have TWO Hapsburg lines. They intermarry a lot. They ally a lot. But as far as balance of power is concerned, nobody wants them reuniting. Not even the Spaniards want this. (The Austrians: But Spain has soooo much mooooney overseas, we waaaant!)
So FORTY years of politics happens between ~1660 and 1700, all trying to find a solution to the Spanish Succession problem (Charles II is about to die without an heir) that ISN'T either Austria or Spain getting the entire Spanish empire intact. Obviously, France wants France getting the entire Spanish empire intact! And Austria wants Austria getting the entire Spanish empire intact! And Goldstone (secret Habsburg) wants Austria getting the entire Spanish empire intact! But everyone else thinks that that's waaay too threatening and must be prevented.
The only way, in the minds of most European powers, to keep either Austria or France from taking over the world is to divvy up the Spanish empire.
Now, Spain, for obvious reasons, doesn't want the empire to be divvied up and is super annoyed at everyone else thinking that this is the only solution. Spain also knows that if they want to stay intact, they have to go with one of the powers big enough to hold that much territory. They could give the empire to another claimant, like the Duke of Savoy, and that would satisfy the balance of power in that no one cares if Savoy is suddenly united with Spain, but, Spain + Savoy is too weak to fight off France and Austria.
So Spain basically has to go to either Austria or France, because if they go wtih anyone weaker, it'll end up with Austria or France or both anyway, because they're big enough to take it. And if one of those two takes it, the rest of Europe will fight them, because that's too much power for one country to have.
So it's no surprise that what happens in the end is:
1) A Frenchman ends up on the throne of Spain,
2) The Spanish empire is divvied up,
3) The Frenchman agrees never to claim France (but is totally lying, as we know),
because that's the only way we arrive at a state of affairs stable enough that everyone can live with it long enough to stop fighting. (For a while.)
But Goldstone would have you believe that anything Austria ended up with they "retained", and anywhere the French army went, they "invaded," because once a Habsburg territory, always a Habsburg territory.
What really happened:
The Spaniards decided to offer the crown to Philip, Louis XIV's grandson, because they thought that France could do a better job of keeping the empire intact (because Louis XIV + shared border). Goldstone acknowledges that the crown was offered by Spain to Philip, but presents it like this: "[Charles II] had been convinced by the pope to leave his realm to the Sun King's sixteen-year-old grandson, rather than one of his own imperial relatives."
Which makes it sound WAY more nefarious than it was, because now it sounds like 1) Spain has no actual rationale for doing this, 2) it's not like Philip was Charles' OWN RELATIVE or anything. (Spoiler: he was.)
Now, this is where I sound like a Louis supporter, because it's not like Louis hadn't renounced his descendants' claim to the Spanish throne on the basis of his Spanish wife. But he'd been claiming Spanish territory on those grounds for 30 or more years, and it's not like this came as a surprise to anyone in 1700. (He's not the good guy, it's just that everyone here was a whole lot more rational than the Habsburg partisanship would make it seen.)
So then Goldstone continues, "The emperor at the time, Leopold, (Charles's father), naturally protested this inheritance."
"Naturally" in the sense that he'd been campaigning to get this throne for 40 years, but what I think Goldstone means here is "Naturally, because once a Habsburg territory, always a Habsburg territory. Naming a Bourbon in your will was the unnatural thing to do, which is why I have to pretend they weren't related!"
Note that everyone else, even Louis' worst enemy William III, was prepared to recognize Philip as king of Spain. For a while, it looked like there might be no war.
Then, Goldstone gives us this:
By way of response, Louis XIV's armies invaded Belgium, Germany, Italy, and Spain, touching off the War of the Spanish Succession.
It's very easy to miss that this perspective assumes that once a Habsburg territory, always a Habsburg territory. So a Habsburg army in the territory belongs there; any Frenchmen are invading.
What actually happened:
Spain: Invited by the Spanish, Philip enters Spain peacefully, and is welcomed by the Spaniards. There is a peaceful transition of power. (No, I'm not relying entirely on my probably biased in the other direction bio of Philip V, I'm leaning on the more balanced War of the Spanish Succession by Falkner, and it agrees with the Philip bio *and* Wikipedia way more than the Goldstone book. Goldstone is the outlier here.) No French army invades. Years later, after the war starts, and Philip, who's supported by the Spaniards and is ruling, needs help, Louis sends troops to help him defend his throne against the INVADING Austrians and their allies.
Italy: There are Spanish possessions in Italy. Legally, they have belonged to Spain for a hundred plus years, and now they belong to Philip. Leopold invades the Duchy of Milan, without declaring war, as the first act of aggression. Louis moves to defend it on Philip's behalf, because he has the better army and the proximity, compared to Spain.
Now, this is where I sound like a Louis supporter *again*, because 1) shouldn't the Milanese get a say? And a lot of Italian territory left Spanish hands at the end of the war because the locals weren't too happy with Spain. 2) Louis' occupation of Spanish fortresses in Italy made people nervous, and they knew he was using his grandson as an excuse to extend his power. But what I'm saying is that Goldstone's take is "Once a Habsburg territory, always a Habsburg territory, therefore Leopold belonged there and Louis was invading," when the first shots were fired *by* Leopold *on* Spaniards, without any war being declared, and only then did the French show up.
Germany: I dooon't recall Louis invading Germany until war had been declared. Had he invaded Germany before? Of course. Is he the good guy here? No. But did he invade Germany to kick off the War of the Spanish Succession after an inexplicable decision by Charles II to give Spain to his grandson? Not as far as I recall.
Belgium: The only one where you could call it a French invasion kicking off the war, and even then Goldstone misses all the nuances. So, "Belgium", or the Spanish Netherlands, is one of those weird polities that sort of has two masters, and as long as they're not at war with each other, it's fiiiiine. The Spanish Netherlands (we've heard from Selena how the Habsburgs got them as part of the Burgundian Inheritance) were given to Philip II when the Habsburg empire was split up. They were still officially part of the Holy Roman Empire, though. Wikipedia refers to this as de jure ruled by Austria, de facto ruled by Spain.
Since they're both Habsburgs and this is a hereditary Habsburg possession, Goldstone sees it as staying in the family when Charles of the Habsburgs "retains" it at the end of the war. It does, in fact, remain part of the HRE. However, it goes from being called the Spanish Netherlands to being the Austrian Netherlands for a reason. It was in a very real sense a conquest by Leopold.
As for Louis: technically, in 1701, this belonged to his grandson. But being Louis, he decided this was an awesome opportunity to slip his own troops in there. He started occupying fortresses. "I'm just helping out my grandson! Got his permission!" He had to do some seriously sketchy things in order to make this happen.
You can skip this paragraph if it's too much detail: The governor-general who was administering the Habsburg Netherlands on behalf of the Spanish Habsburgs was the Bavarian Wittelsbach guy who wanted to be Holy Roman Emperor. He was a subject of the Holy Roman Emperor administering a territory that was part of the Holy Roman Empire. So letting French troops in because Louis had promised to help support his bid for HRE was seriously sketchy and kinda does count as an invasion.
However. The reason this kicked off the war was *not* because everyone went, "Ooh, that's a Habsburg territory!" It could have passed to Philip V, the Bourbon, and I think everyone would have let that stand. But it bordered on the Netherlands, and the Dutch had just finished being at war with the French for a gazillion years. And if Louis XIV had one mortal enemy, it was William III (of William-and-Mary). Who's like "You're doing *what* on the borders of my Netherlands?? Hey, Leopold, I hear you wanna fight Louis?") And *then* the war starts. So Louis' move here was kind of 50% invasion, 100% power play.
Note, though, that no one except Leopold cares if Spain goes to the Bourbons. It's not even in the Allies' initial war aims. Only Leopold and secret Habsburg Goldstone care about that part.
Later, once the Allies have kicked French butt along the eastern border of France but have totally failed in Spain, they get punch-drunk and start insisting on "no peace without Spain," i.e. Spain for Leopold's son Charles. But that was never a condition of the alliance.
Now, all this is related to the incredibly easy to miss omissions in the account of how the war ends.
What actually happened:
Once Joseph died without a male heir, Charles knew he was a shoo-in for the empire, but that once he had it, absolutely no one else would want him on the Spanish throne. Because Austria + Spain = Charles the Habsburg is just as bad as France + Spain = Philip the Bourbon in the minds of everyone except the Habsburgs (secret and non-secret).
So when she says that the war ends because Austria's allies have achieved their war aims and are tired of fighting, this is true but disingenuous, because it leaves out the whole part where the biggest war aim was BALANCE OF POWER. Meaning now that the Spanish empire has been divvied up, meaning now that Leopold has CONQUERED, not retained, CONQUERED, some of its territory (and Britain has gotten some too), we can all go home. (There were other war aims that are outside the scope of this essay.)
Just like Dad Leopold had started the war before anyone else cared, Charles resentfully fought on after everyone else stopped, until he realized he could end up losing more than he'd gained. And it took him forever to make formal peace with Spain, long after everyone else had moved on.
Then there's the part where Goldstone tells us that Charles only had a small force and "never managed to get farther inland than Barcelona", but it was nice and sunny there so he didn't really mind spending several years there. ???
Me: What about all the battles that were not in Catalonia? What about his English and Portuguese allies? What about the two times that they occupied Madrid? I know Charles entered the city at least one of those times.
If she had said he never managed to sustainably hold onto territory outside Catalonia, I wouldn't be here. That's an accurate statement. He got Madrid for about a week. But saying he never made it further inland than Barcelona...
Me: I didn't learn Spanish geography earlier this year so I wouldn't go WTF at your inaccurate account of these campaigns! (I did actually learn basic Spanish geography for the first time for the War of the Spanish Succession. War is God's way of teaching Americans geography!)
As for the size of his force, that wasn't the problem here. If you look at the battles, they're like 20-25,000 soldiers on each side.
Oh, I see this has the part about the physicians suffocating Joseph with flannel. Haha, I totally skipped over that because my brain was homed in on wrong facts about the War of the Spanish Succession.
In conclusion:
Although by these agreements Charles retained the Spanish Netherlands (in addition to Germany, Austria, Silesia, Hungary, Bohemia, and Northern Italy), there was no escaping the fact that the thief had gotten away with far more than just the silver--he now occupied almost half the castle.
And as if it was not degrading enough to be the first member of his family to begin his reign by losing therritory that had been held for centuries...
Let's break that down...
Although by these agreements Charles retained the Spanish Netherlands
Sort of retained, more conquered, thanks Marlborough and Eugene.
(in addition to Germany, Austria,
I mean, Blenheim was about keeping the French from marching on Vienna and making a Wittelsbach into the next emperor, so fair.
Silesia
Was under attack when?
Hungary
Local uprising taking advantage of the fact that Leopold and Joseph were busy sending their troops to fight France.
Bohemia
Was under attack when?
, and Northern Italy
Acquired from Spain, not retained by Austria!
), there was no escaping the fact that the thief had gotten away with far more than just the silver--he now occupied almost half the castle.
Oooh, the Spanish Netherlands, Germany, Austria, Silesia, Hungary, Bohemia, and northern Italy are just a list of territories ruled by Habsburgs that are still ruled by Habsburgs, I see! Never mind which Habsburgs. Because secret Habsburg! (And "Germany" is really shorthand there for "keep electing us HREs because we're the ones with enough of a power base to raise our own troops and money, since we can't actually do that in Germany.")
And as if it was not degrading enough to be the first member of his family to begin his reign by losing therritory that had been held for centuries...
...He only "lost" territory that had been held by a different branch of the family, and he gained some of that territory! Was he unhappy? Yeah. Because he was going for it all. But it being degrading not to have conquered Spain...she's really big on these men being degraded and emasculated by the balance of power politics! (Balance of power is exactly why FS traded Lorraine for Tuscany.)
Re: The War of the Spanish Succession, or "Secret Habsburg" Goldstone
Date: 2021-09-25 05:27 am (UTC)Anyway, thank you!! Reading this is definitely stimulating the correct pathways in my brain -- like, when you told me the first time I didn't actively retain... probably any of it, and who knows if I'll actively retain it this time either, but at least it's at least kind of in my passive memory, as while I was reading it I was like "oh right, yeah, I kinda remember mildred saying that before." And now it's hooked in with the keywords Goldstone, Secret Habsburg, so that's gotta help. :)
War is God's way of teaching Americans geography!
Lol, this is... not wrong.
Re: The War of the Spanish Succession, or "Secret Habsburg" Goldstone
Date: 2021-09-25 07:02 pm (UTC)Good, I did that for you! :)
War is God's way of teaching Americans geography!
Lol, this is... not wrong.
Variants on this quote are attributed to Mark Twain, Ambrose Pierce, [insert famous wit here]. I haven't researched its actual aetiology. I just accept that it's true, because how did I learn about the geography of Saxony, Bohemia, and Silesia? Fritz invading! :D