Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 30
Sep. 8th, 2021 09:52 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cahnIn which, despite the title, I would like to be told about the English Revolution, which is yet another casualty of my extremely poor history education :P :)
Also, this is probably the place to say that RMSE opened with three Fritz-fics, all of which I think are readable with minimum canon knowledge:
The Boy Who Lived - if you knew about the doomed escape-from-Prussia-that-didn't happen and tragic death of Fritz's boyfriend Hans Hermann von Katte, you may not have known about Peter Keith, the third young man who conspired to escape Prussia -- and the only one who actually did. This is his story. I think readable without canon knowledge except what I just said here.
Challenge Yourself to Relax - My gift, I posted about this before! Corporate AU with my problematic fave, Fritz' brother Heinrich, who's still Fritz's l'autre moi-meme even in corporate AU. Readable without canon knowledge if one has familiarity with the corporate world and the dysfunctions thereof.
The Rise and Fall of the RendezvousWithFame Exchange - Fandom AU with BNF fanfic writer Voltaire, exchange mod Fritz, and the inevitable meltdown. (I wrote this one and am quite proud of the terrible physics-adjacent pun contained within.) Readable without canon knowledge if one has familiarity with fandom and the dysfunctions thereof :P
Also, this is probably the place to say that RMSE opened with three Fritz-fics, all of which I think are readable with minimum canon knowledge:
The Boy Who Lived - if you knew about the doomed escape-from-Prussia-that-didn't happen and tragic death of Fritz's boyfriend Hans Hermann von Katte, you may not have known about Peter Keith, the third young man who conspired to escape Prussia -- and the only one who actually did. This is his story. I think readable without canon knowledge except what I just said here.
Challenge Yourself to Relax - My gift, I posted about this before! Corporate AU with my problematic fave, Fritz' brother Heinrich, who's still Fritz's l'autre moi-meme even in corporate AU. Readable without canon knowledge if one has familiarity with the corporate world and the dysfunctions thereof.
The Rise and Fall of the RendezvousWithFame Exchange - Fandom AU with BNF fanfic writer Voltaire, exchange mod Fritz, and the inevitable meltdown. (I wrote this one and am quite proud of the terrible physics-adjacent pun contained within.) Readable without canon knowledge if one has familiarity with fandom and the dysfunctions thereof :P
Re: MT Marriage Project
Date: 2021-09-16 05:00 am (UTC)b) In 1719, he still loved his son without hating him as well; by 1730, believing that when in doubt,
Fritz is to blame is way stronger than Distrust Of Catholics
:( I read this and was like "yeah, that must definitely have been part of it" and also "why is it that every time I start not taking FW quite as seriously something comes along and reminds me how AWFUL he was??"
FW awfulness reminder
Date: 2021-09-18 07:16 pm (UTC)Part the first:
In Hans Rosenberg’s judicious, perhaps even charitable, assessment, Frederick William was ‘a dangerous, uncouth, and irascible but shrewd psychoneurotic, haunted by delusions of grandeur, but nevertheless the most remarkable administrative reformer ever produced by the Hohenzollern family’.
I like how Blanning marks a description like that as charitable! (Note, though, that Fritz was by all accounts not as much of an administrative or military reformer as his father; he mostly used what his father gave him and made some adjustments. It was *how* he used it that was extraordinary. So I'm willing to grant FW most remarkable administrative reformer. I'm also willing to grant him dangerous, uncouth, irascible, and psychoneurotic! :P)
Part the second:
Intense piety went hand-in-hand with extreme brutality, as for example on the day when he first had an official found guilty of dereliction of duty garrotted in front of his office, with all senior and junior personnel forced to watch, and then received a group of religious refugees from Salzburg, with his entire court obliged to get down on their knees to give thanks for this deliverance of the Lord’s afflicted. When asked, on a visit to East Prussia, to confirm a sentence of imprisonment passed on Councillor von Schlabuth, Frederick William told the prisoner that he deserved to be hanged. Unwisely, von Schlabuth replied tartly that ‘one doesn’t hang a Prussian noble’. By way of reply, Frederick William had a gallows erected in the courtyard of von Schlabuth’s place of work [Mildred's note: Notice how his colleagues have to watch!] and had him hanged from it the following day–but not before going to church and weeping as he heard a sermon on the virtue of mercy (‘Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy’–Matthew 5:7).
I'm pretty sure I mentioned this when summarizing Lavisse, but not this much detail.
Source: The Pursuit of Glory: The Five Revolutions that Made Modern Europe: 1648-1815
Despite some wobbles, I'm enjoying it (the C1 as your role model arguably counts as an entertaining wobble!), but it's also 800 pages long, and along with my other several 800-page books plus various Kindle samples, is why I'm not done yet.
...Someone yell at me about German, I've been slacking on my 800 page book there. :/
Re: FW awfulness reminder
Date: 2021-09-19 04:51 pm (UTC)So I'm willing to grant FW most remarkable administrative reformer. I'm also willing to grant him dangerous, uncouth, irascible, and psychoneurotic! :P)
So say we all. Well, not Kloosterhuis and Göse, but other than them. :) Incidentally, the way Krockow phrases it as far as I recall was "in terms of pure interior politics most innovative and capable Prussian ruler", also coupled with the addendum about his terrible personality. Otoh he didn't say "Hohenzollern", which begs the interesting question: what about Bismarck? Chancellor, not monarch, true, but Wilhelm 1. was pretty clear on the fact who did the actual work and ruling there. (His grandson, otoh...)
The first garotting sounds vaguely familiar, though not in the combination with receiving the refugees from Salzburg. (The refugees form Salzburg story usually shows up in a way complimentary to FW, since they were religious refugees, and he gets praised for taking them in.) I didn't remember the von Schlabuth story, if I'd ever heard it, and certainly not him weeping on a sermon on the virtue of mercy later. Has Blanning mentioned Gundling yet?
C1 as your role model: I'm still puzzled on how that should work for anything but family life. (Since he was indisputably a devoted husband and father.) Incidentally,
Re: FW awfulness reminder
Date: 2021-09-19 06:00 pm (UTC)Two thirds of the way through Goldstone! And the Montefiore *is* the German book you're supposed to be yelling at me about. ;) (I made it about as far as I plan to read for now through his Romanovs book, i.e. through Paul, at the end of the 18th century. Which is the one I was reading in English.)
Additionally, I'm working through Massie's bio of Peter the Great (enjoying it!), and a non-salon book that I believe Cahn is also reading, or at least has on her reading list: Sapolsky's Behave.
Has Blanning mentioned Gundling yet?
Gundling is Sir Not Appearing in This Book, but since This Book is "European history for 168 years: discuss," that's more forgiveable than in a book or essay *about* FW.
But in general, yes, it is frustrating that Gundling doesn't get enough attention in the Fritz or FW books. I think he also doesn't make an appearance in Blanning's Fritz bio.
Incidentally, cahn, neither Nancy Goldstone nor Jude Morgan consider C1 a role model for monarchs. Henrietta Maria and Tim Blanning remain the sole people I've heard of who do.
Reading further on, I ran into more C2 dragging:
[The Stuarts] managed to blunder through one reign, only to be sent on their travels again when an even more stupid younger brother squandered the last remnants of goodwill.
He's not shy about his opinions.
Re: FW awfulness reminder
Date: 2021-09-22 05:30 am (UTC)Heeeee. It really... seems odd to take the guy who lost his kingdom and head as the role model over the guy who didn't...
Re: FW awfulness reminder
Date: 2021-09-22 08:53 pm (UTC)In case you were wondering whose side he takes in the Anne/Marlboroughs conflict:
An important step in the right direction was taken in England in the course of 1710, when Queen Anne freed herself from the 'duumvirs', the Earl of Godolphin and Marlborough (and his wife Sarah).
No details is the beauty of it. That's it, that's the entirety of what you learn from him on that subect. Moving on, got 170 years of a whole continent's worth of opinions to cover.
Re: FW awfulness reminder
Date: 2021-09-23 06:52 am (UTC)Does he have any takes on Eugene that are worth mentioning?
BTW, speaking of partisanship in authors, as I wrote in my own review of her book, Nancy Goldstone comparing Mary and Anne to Goneril and Regan for siding against Dad James II. also made my eyebrows raise. (Not to mention that having read the Liselotte and Sophie letters (not to each other) referring to James, presenting them as siding with him is true fanwank. Sophie correctly guessed James would lose his crown before he ever did (and that he'd bring it on himself), and Liselotte had no doubt William was way more competent and the better King, despite feeling occasionally sorry for James the exile.
Re: FW awfulness reminder
Date: 2021-09-23 04:47 pm (UTC)See, I don't care if he covers it. It's just that if you're going to write one sentence on a semi-obscure subject on which there are two sides, that one sentence should be more factual and less a statement that you're on Anne's side. If you're going to take sides, there should be some facts presented first.
Anyway. 99% of the stuff in this book is great and informative, don't mind me.
Does he have any takes on Eugene that are worth mentioning?
Not that I recall. Just a casual comment that he was a great general but Marlborough was better, which, sure. He does mention the "Eugenio von Savoie" signature.
One interesting take he does have: he goes 100% with the traditional take on Philip V, in which Philip was totally dominated by his wives because he was sexually insatiable and also too pious to take mistresses. At first I thought this was because Blanning hadn't read Kamen. Remember, Kamen's take is that Philip had mental illnesses and needed moral support, which contemporary ambassadors didn't understand, and that he was more involved in the decision-making than he's gotten credit for. Kamen presents actual evidence and makes a persuasive (to me) case that the traditional, misogynistic, mental-illness-stigmatizing perspective dates back to the 18th century (which is actually consistent with Horowski's repeated reminder that "blame the wife/mistress" was the standard MO in France when you didn't like a king's decision). But Blanning mentions that Kamen is Philip's most recent biographer (yeah, I think the 1990s date miiiight have something to do with the lack of stigmatizing and misogyny), and still manages to avoid engaging with Kamen's reassessment of Philip.
(I am *so* glad I read Kamen. He may be wrong, but he's at least making me think critically instead of just swallowing what I'm told.)
Books
Date: 2021-09-22 08:48 pm (UTC)So having (just about) finished it, I have to say, if Massie's Peter the Great is the book I always knew I always wanted (readable bio of Peter *and* summary of the Great Northern War), Winter Queen is the book I never knew I always wanted! It fills in the gaps and connects the dots between 17th century Stuarts I know and 18th century Hannovers (there I go again :P), Hohenzollerns, and Orleans I know by covering the Stuarts and Palatinates I don't know!
I *did* feel talked down to by the author at a couple of points, which is a personal hot button, but given that it was only twice and that the rest of the book was so readable and informative, I will forgive her. I'm having trouble bringing myself to buy a book whose Kindle sample I liked aside from the non-stop talking down, grrr.
Also, the fact that I had as much context for Winter Queen as I do is thanks to you, Selena! So thank you for that as well as the book rec.
(Massie is still very long and still unfinished, but I've skipped ahead to the Great Northern War, which is a good 250 pages by itself, and I'm already becoming enlightened and looking forward to being more enlightened. I'll let you guys know when I get to the point where I feel comfortable talking about this war.)
Re: Books
Date: 2021-09-23 06:06 am (UTC)Oh, same here! Down to the tiniest dots. I mean, there were mentions of these people in books I've read before, but, for example, I hadn't known that the aunt Liselotte mentions visiting in a nunnery now and then was a daughter of the Winter Queen, and how she got there in the first place, let alone that the same woman had been fancied by Fritz Gread-Grandfather the Great Elector in his youth. Or that the Prince Rupert who kept coming up in the English Civil War connection was Sophie's older brother. (And I definitely hadn't known about Boye the poodle!)
You're ahead of me with Massie's Peter the Great - rewatching the 80s tv series based on it has reminded me I still haven't read it yet, nor another proper Peter biography, and I've been meaning to. So many books, so little time!
Anyway, I'm glad you liked the book as much as I did. (And that we both rolled our eyes about the Mary-Queen-of-Scots tie in.)
Re: Books
Date: 2021-09-23 02:02 pm (UTC)Same! And there were things you had told us that I had read and vaguely stored in my memory, but now I had more context. Like Sophie's account of the cat-fight between somebody's wife and mistress and jewelry and throwing things and living in the same household--I got to that in WQ and was like, "Oh, that was Karl Ludwig!" You had told us that, but I had no idea who he was, so he was just a name instead of a person.
You're ahead of me with Massie's Peter the Great - rewatching the 80s tv series based on it has reminded me I still haven't read it yet, nor another proper Peter biography, and I've been meaning to.
Not that there are no points where I'm rolling my eyes or going, "I don't think that's true," but for sheer readability, I'm actually enjoying this one even more than the Catherine the Great bio. I can see why this was the award-winning one. I recommend both, but the Peter one even more, especially since you know more about Catherine already.
(And that we both rolled our eyes about the Mary-Queen-of-Scots tie in.)
I did, but the two points where I outright felt insulted were:
Goldstone: Americans don't know who Montrose is, but...
Me, an American scholar: Excuse you, Goldstone.
It would have been so easy to phrase that in a more accurate and less condescending way as, "Montrose isn't well known in the US, but..."
Goldstone: Don't worry if you don't understand this excerpt of a letter between Elizabeth and Descartes. I read their correspondence and I don't understand a thing!
Me: Look, the Emilie biographers I've read haven't felt the need to pat us on the head and tell us it's okay if we don't understand Newton. And since I've read more works by Descartes than I have works by you, Goldstone, and I've studied way more philosophy of mind than Elizabeth Stuart or her daughters...this passage was actually perfectly clear to me.
But those were minor compared to the sheer amount of information and the very accessible writing style.
Re: FW awfulness reminder, and books
Date: 2021-09-22 05:35 am (UTC)I have finished Faust (it took me a while to get started, and then I was riveted -- thank you for reccing that translation, Selena!) so... now I have to figure out whether to read Winter Queen or Maria Theresa first, any votes? (If Winter Queen, can you give me a text file rather than a PDF? It makes my life much easier...)
Also: FW UGH!
Re: FW awfulness reminder, and books
Date: 2021-09-22 06:32 pm (UTC)Winter Queen definitely first, especially if by Maria Theresa you mean the Stollberg-Rillinger, which is as I often said really rather dry and academic, if informative. Go with the Stuarts in Germany (and Bohemia) for now. Nancy Goldstone: definitely not dry or academic.
Re: FW awfulness reminder, and books
Date: 2021-09-22 07:46 pm (UTC)No, I'm pretty sure she means Nancy Goldstone's new MT + 3 daughters book that just came out yesterday! That's why it's so hard to choose.
Also, both are on Kindle for reasonable prices: $15.99 for the new one and $12.99 for the other one. I recommend you just buy whichever one you go with on Kindle.
Re: FW awfulness reminder, and books
Date: 2021-09-23 04:01 am (UTC)Stollberg-Rillinger date is now pushed back to 2022! (Though after reading another MT biography and with all the things on my reading list right now...)
Re: FW awfulness reminder, and books
Date: 2021-09-23 01:49 pm (UTC)Yeah, I was thinking of that. Since I've got several other books I'm working on, most of which are 800 pages and one of which is 800 pages and in German, how about this: you tell me where you get to on any given day, and I'll read up to that point? We can take this one slow, I don't mind.
Stollberg-Rillinger date is now pushed back to 2022!
I saw! I'll see how I feel after finishing Montefiore and a couple shorter books. The problem with SR wasn't her prose, it was the dryness of some of the content. When I was engaged, I was reading easily ("easily"), but there were so many long patches that needed to be skimmed and I just can't skim. I'll pick her back up as soon as I'm capable of skimming.
Re: FW awfulness reminder, and books
Date: 2021-09-23 01:58 pm (UTC)Re: FW awfulness reminder, and books
Date: 2021-09-23 10:20 pm (UTC)Aww, if I'd known it would influence you! I just knew that when I suggested you start reading it, you said you had to finish Faust first, and I was like, "Self, just because you're excited about a book doesn't mean everyone else needs to drop what they're doing."
This is mature me. Younger me was "AbsoLUTely everyone needs to drop what they're doing when I'm excited about a book." :P
Re: FW awfulness reminder, and books
Date: 2021-09-22 08:39 pm (UTC)Excellent point! Yell at me some more after I've gotten more sleep than I got last night. (How am I supposed to keep from slacking off on German if people are slacking off on yelling at me? ;))