Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 30
Sep. 8th, 2021 09:52 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cahnIn which, despite the title, I would like to be told about the English Revolution, which is yet another casualty of my extremely poor history education :P :)
Also, this is probably the place to say that RMSE opened with three Fritz-fics, all of which I think are readable with minimum canon knowledge:
The Boy Who Lived - if you knew about the doomed escape-from-Prussia-that-didn't happen and tragic death of Fritz's boyfriend Hans Hermann von Katte, you may not have known about Peter Keith, the third young man who conspired to escape Prussia -- and the only one who actually did. This is his story. I think readable without canon knowledge except what I just said here.
Challenge Yourself to Relax - My gift, I posted about this before! Corporate AU with my problematic fave, Fritz' brother Heinrich, who's still Fritz's l'autre moi-meme even in corporate AU. Readable without canon knowledge if one has familiarity with the corporate world and the dysfunctions thereof.
The Rise and Fall of the RendezvousWithFame Exchange - Fandom AU with BNF fanfic writer Voltaire, exchange mod Fritz, and the inevitable meltdown. (I wrote this one and am quite proud of the terrible physics-adjacent pun contained within.) Readable without canon knowledge if one has familiarity with fandom and the dysfunctions thereof :P
Also, this is probably the place to say that RMSE opened with three Fritz-fics, all of which I think are readable with minimum canon knowledge:
The Boy Who Lived - if you knew about the doomed escape-from-Prussia-that-didn't happen and tragic death of Fritz's boyfriend Hans Hermann von Katte, you may not have known about Peter Keith, the third young man who conspired to escape Prussia -- and the only one who actually did. This is his story. I think readable without canon knowledge except what I just said here.
Challenge Yourself to Relax - My gift, I posted about this before! Corporate AU with my problematic fave, Fritz' brother Heinrich, who's still Fritz's l'autre moi-meme even in corporate AU. Readable without canon knowledge if one has familiarity with the corporate world and the dysfunctions thereof.
The Rise and Fall of the RendezvousWithFame Exchange - Fandom AU with BNF fanfic writer Voltaire, exchange mod Fritz, and the inevitable meltdown. (I wrote this one and am quite proud of the terrible physics-adjacent pun contained within.) Readable without canon knowledge if one has familiarity with fandom and the dysfunctions thereof :P
Re: FW awfulness reminder
Date: 2021-09-19 04:51 pm (UTC)So I'm willing to grant FW most remarkable administrative reformer. I'm also willing to grant him dangerous, uncouth, irascible, and psychoneurotic! :P)
So say we all. Well, not Kloosterhuis and Göse, but other than them. :) Incidentally, the way Krockow phrases it as far as I recall was "in terms of pure interior politics most innovative and capable Prussian ruler", also coupled with the addendum about his terrible personality. Otoh he didn't say "Hohenzollern", which begs the interesting question: what about Bismarck? Chancellor, not monarch, true, but Wilhelm 1. was pretty clear on the fact who did the actual work and ruling there. (His grandson, otoh...)
The first garotting sounds vaguely familiar, though not in the combination with receiving the refugees from Salzburg. (The refugees form Salzburg story usually shows up in a way complimentary to FW, since they were religious refugees, and he gets praised for taking them in.) I didn't remember the von Schlabuth story, if I'd ever heard it, and certainly not him weeping on a sermon on the virtue of mercy later. Has Blanning mentioned Gundling yet?
C1 as your role model: I'm still puzzled on how that should work for anything but family life. (Since he was indisputably a devoted husband and father.) Incidentally,
Re: FW awfulness reminder
Date: 2021-09-19 06:00 pm (UTC)Two thirds of the way through Goldstone! And the Montefiore *is* the German book you're supposed to be yelling at me about. ;) (I made it about as far as I plan to read for now through his Romanovs book, i.e. through Paul, at the end of the 18th century. Which is the one I was reading in English.)
Additionally, I'm working through Massie's bio of Peter the Great (enjoying it!), and a non-salon book that I believe Cahn is also reading, or at least has on her reading list: Sapolsky's Behave.
Has Blanning mentioned Gundling yet?
Gundling is Sir Not Appearing in This Book, but since This Book is "European history for 168 years: discuss," that's more forgiveable than in a book or essay *about* FW.
But in general, yes, it is frustrating that Gundling doesn't get enough attention in the Fritz or FW books. I think he also doesn't make an appearance in Blanning's Fritz bio.
Incidentally, cahn, neither Nancy Goldstone nor Jude Morgan consider C1 a role model for monarchs. Henrietta Maria and Tim Blanning remain the sole people I've heard of who do.
Reading further on, I ran into more C2 dragging:
[The Stuarts] managed to blunder through one reign, only to be sent on their travels again when an even more stupid younger brother squandered the last remnants of goodwill.
He's not shy about his opinions.
Re: FW awfulness reminder
Date: 2021-09-22 05:30 am (UTC)Heeeee. It really... seems odd to take the guy who lost his kingdom and head as the role model over the guy who didn't...
Re: FW awfulness reminder
Date: 2021-09-22 08:53 pm (UTC)In case you were wondering whose side he takes in the Anne/Marlboroughs conflict:
An important step in the right direction was taken in England in the course of 1710, when Queen Anne freed herself from the 'duumvirs', the Earl of Godolphin and Marlborough (and his wife Sarah).
No details is the beauty of it. That's it, that's the entirety of what you learn from him on that subect. Moving on, got 170 years of a whole continent's worth of opinions to cover.
Re: FW awfulness reminder
Date: 2021-09-23 06:52 am (UTC)Does he have any takes on Eugene that are worth mentioning?
BTW, speaking of partisanship in authors, as I wrote in my own review of her book, Nancy Goldstone comparing Mary and Anne to Goneril and Regan for siding against Dad James II. also made my eyebrows raise. (Not to mention that having read the Liselotte and Sophie letters (not to each other) referring to James, presenting them as siding with him is true fanwank. Sophie correctly guessed James would lose his crown before he ever did (and that he'd bring it on himself), and Liselotte had no doubt William was way more competent and the better King, despite feeling occasionally sorry for James the exile.
Re: FW awfulness reminder
Date: 2021-09-23 04:47 pm (UTC)See, I don't care if he covers it. It's just that if you're going to write one sentence on a semi-obscure subject on which there are two sides, that one sentence should be more factual and less a statement that you're on Anne's side. If you're going to take sides, there should be some facts presented first.
Anyway. 99% of the stuff in this book is great and informative, don't mind me.
Does he have any takes on Eugene that are worth mentioning?
Not that I recall. Just a casual comment that he was a great general but Marlborough was better, which, sure. He does mention the "Eugenio von Savoie" signature.
One interesting take he does have: he goes 100% with the traditional take on Philip V, in which Philip was totally dominated by his wives because he was sexually insatiable and also too pious to take mistresses. At first I thought this was because Blanning hadn't read Kamen. Remember, Kamen's take is that Philip had mental illnesses and needed moral support, which contemporary ambassadors didn't understand, and that he was more involved in the decision-making than he's gotten credit for. Kamen presents actual evidence and makes a persuasive (to me) case that the traditional, misogynistic, mental-illness-stigmatizing perspective dates back to the 18th century (which is actually consistent with Horowski's repeated reminder that "blame the wife/mistress" was the standard MO in France when you didn't like a king's decision). But Blanning mentions that Kamen is Philip's most recent biographer (yeah, I think the 1990s date miiiight have something to do with the lack of stigmatizing and misogyny), and still manages to avoid engaging with Kamen's reassessment of Philip.
(I am *so* glad I read Kamen. He may be wrong, but he's at least making me think critically instead of just swallowing what I'm told.)
Books
Date: 2021-09-22 08:48 pm (UTC)So having (just about) finished it, I have to say, if Massie's Peter the Great is the book I always knew I always wanted (readable bio of Peter *and* summary of the Great Northern War), Winter Queen is the book I never knew I always wanted! It fills in the gaps and connects the dots between 17th century Stuarts I know and 18th century Hannovers (there I go again :P), Hohenzollerns, and Orleans I know by covering the Stuarts and Palatinates I don't know!
I *did* feel talked down to by the author at a couple of points, which is a personal hot button, but given that it was only twice and that the rest of the book was so readable and informative, I will forgive her. I'm having trouble bringing myself to buy a book whose Kindle sample I liked aside from the non-stop talking down, grrr.
Also, the fact that I had as much context for Winter Queen as I do is thanks to you, Selena! So thank you for that as well as the book rec.
(Massie is still very long and still unfinished, but I've skipped ahead to the Great Northern War, which is a good 250 pages by itself, and I'm already becoming enlightened and looking forward to being more enlightened. I'll let you guys know when I get to the point where I feel comfortable talking about this war.)
Re: Books
Date: 2021-09-23 06:06 am (UTC)Oh, same here! Down to the tiniest dots. I mean, there were mentions of these people in books I've read before, but, for example, I hadn't known that the aunt Liselotte mentions visiting in a nunnery now and then was a daughter of the Winter Queen, and how she got there in the first place, let alone that the same woman had been fancied by Fritz Gread-Grandfather the Great Elector in his youth. Or that the Prince Rupert who kept coming up in the English Civil War connection was Sophie's older brother. (And I definitely hadn't known about Boye the poodle!)
You're ahead of me with Massie's Peter the Great - rewatching the 80s tv series based on it has reminded me I still haven't read it yet, nor another proper Peter biography, and I've been meaning to. So many books, so little time!
Anyway, I'm glad you liked the book as much as I did. (And that we both rolled our eyes about the Mary-Queen-of-Scots tie in.)
Re: Books
Date: 2021-09-23 02:02 pm (UTC)Same! And there were things you had told us that I had read and vaguely stored in my memory, but now I had more context. Like Sophie's account of the cat-fight between somebody's wife and mistress and jewelry and throwing things and living in the same household--I got to that in WQ and was like, "Oh, that was Karl Ludwig!" You had told us that, but I had no idea who he was, so he was just a name instead of a person.
You're ahead of me with Massie's Peter the Great - rewatching the 80s tv series based on it has reminded me I still haven't read it yet, nor another proper Peter biography, and I've been meaning to.
Not that there are no points where I'm rolling my eyes or going, "I don't think that's true," but for sheer readability, I'm actually enjoying this one even more than the Catherine the Great bio. I can see why this was the award-winning one. I recommend both, but the Peter one even more, especially since you know more about Catherine already.
(And that we both rolled our eyes about the Mary-Queen-of-Scots tie in.)
I did, but the two points where I outright felt insulted were:
Goldstone: Americans don't know who Montrose is, but...
Me, an American scholar: Excuse you, Goldstone.
It would have been so easy to phrase that in a more accurate and less condescending way as, "Montrose isn't well known in the US, but..."
Goldstone: Don't worry if you don't understand this excerpt of a letter between Elizabeth and Descartes. I read their correspondence and I don't understand a thing!
Me: Look, the Emilie biographers I've read haven't felt the need to pat us on the head and tell us it's okay if we don't understand Newton. And since I've read more works by Descartes than I have works by you, Goldstone, and I've studied way more philosophy of mind than Elizabeth Stuart or her daughters...this passage was actually perfectly clear to me.
But those were minor compared to the sheer amount of information and the very accessible writing style.