cahn | Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 28

cahn

That is a lot of posts! :D <3

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From:

selenak

Later May and June is when Fritz and Wilhelmine have cleared the air and reconciled, though only via letters, not yet in person, so I imagine Fritz was on buyont patriarchal mood and decided he might as well patch up things with the brat as well, and taking him along on the wellness holidays was just the ticket. (Hey, shared holidays were so Dad's idea of enforcing family bonds, and after all, he'd started his roleplay where Heinrich was him and he was Dad!) Maybe he even thought that getting Heinrich alway from the rest of the Divine Trio (read: the brothers Heinrich very much prefered) would be conductive to this and give them a chance to get to know each other better.

If so, though, making jokes about Heinrich needing to marry was very much not the way to go about it*, and I bet for Heinrich, those were the holidays from hell. (And then the musicians were a let down, too.) Incidentally, Pöllnitz being along for the ride would also explain why Heinrich just two years later must have made the mistake of confiding in him, given that Pöllnitz was the one who ratted out Heinrich to Fritz re: Heinrich spending the nights away from his regiment in Berlin in the 1748/1749 crisis. Maybe they'd gotten somewhat close during the holidays from hell?

*unless it wasn't a joke, and Fritz started to get the idea that this would be just the disciplinary measure to tame Heinrich as early as that? Or maybe it started as a joke, he saw Heinrich's reaction and thought, hm, yeah, seems he feels like me about the prospect, which means I should keep this in mind as the ultimate disciplinary weapon...

From:

felis

Fritz was on buyont patriarchal mood and decided he might as well patch up things with the brat as well

Hee, or that. Honestly, I'd love to know how that invitation and Heinrich's reaction went.

he even thought that getting Heinrich alway from the rest of the Divine Trio (read: the brothers Heinrich very much prefered) would be conductive to this

I actually re-checked the AW letters, because I recalled that Fritz wrote to him from Pyrmont (about his first brush with gout by the way!) but I didn't recall a Heinrich mention. If there was one, Volz didn't include it. (Which is entirely possible if it was just a greeting or something.)

Maybe they'd gotten somewhat close during the holidays from hell?

My impression was that Pöllnitz was basically a court staple for all of them? I mean he was around during FW's time, part of the Wusterhausen trips where Heinrich would have met him, and just generally ... around? So I don't think it necessarily needed a special trip.

By the way, speaking of other participants of the trip, also there: Ingersleben, a.k.a. teacup guy! Taking walks with Fritz, among other things. (Unfortunately, no names for the pages.)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

I noticed Ingersleben! I was going to check if it was our teacup guy, but ran out of time. Thanks for confirming!

From:

selenak

Ahaha, maybe he took Heinrich with him because he'd caught something from Marwitz after all. (Certainly would explain the "so he can marry" comment, if Fritz is speaking from his own - rumoured - experience.) :PP

LOL. Now that's a wicked possibility. Though if my guy Boswell is anything to go by, who got afflicted more than once, if you caught an STD in the 18th century you tried to ascertain you and your doctor were the only ones who knew and withdrew from society as much as possible without looking suspicious to avoid temptation you couldn't follow up on while going through the prescribed cure. Going to a spa where you'll be checked up on by a lot of new physicians who aren't under your thumb and thus could blab once you've left and where a certain amount of social interaction with strangers is par the course seems counterproductive?

Hee, or that. Honestly, I'd love to know how that invitation and Heinrich's reaction went.

Wouldn't we all. Note to self: write that scene/letter exchange one of these days.

I actually re-checked the AW letters, because I recalled that Fritz wrote to him from Pyrmont (about his first brush with gout by the way!) but I didn't recall a Heinrich mention. If there was one, Volz didn't include it. (Which is entirely possible if it was just a greeting or something.)

Just to make things more confusing, I've now read the text you linked and the quoted spy report says "Prince Wilhelm" at one point so I wondered whether the article writer got it wrong and it was AW, but no, the later mentions all say Heinrich, plus the marriage dig wouldn't work with AW who was already married.

My impression was that Pöllnitz was basically a court staple for all of them?

Absolutely, and they must have found him very entertaining, but remember, Fritz writes to Wilhelmine before Pöllnitz visits her in Bayreuth not to trust him with anything important. Hanging out with Pöllnitz isn't unusual for any of the siblings, but entrusting him with something like "I'm illegally here in Berlin" would have been. But maybe Pöllnitz just ran into Heinrich by accident then and told.

re: Ingersleben the Teacup Guy: further giving the lie to the idea Fritz avoided all his 1730 implicated friends like the plague once he was King.

Doris Ritter, whose strolls with Fritz Ingersleben chaperoned: Not a comfort.

From:

felis

Going to a spa where you'll be checked up on by a lot of new physicians who aren't under your thumb and thus could blab once you've left and where a certain amount of social interaction with strangers is par the course seems counterproductive?

Point. I was mostly talking in jest, although I do want to point out that Heinrich might not have had the chance to say no, even if he wanted to. And on a more serious note, Heinrich was sick shortly before this - though of course not with an STD - when the Marwitz letters were written. Fritz even mentions to AW that he's glad that "little Heinrich" (!) is doing better and that he hopes his health will finally strengthen - so Fritz still might have thought a visit to Pyrmont would do him good health-wise, Marwitz letters in between or no? Also, I saw that this apparently wasn't the first time Fritz took Heinrich with him on a spa trip, seems like Heinrich was also in Aachen in 1742 (at least if the "Prince Heinrich" is identified as the right one). Attempt at a brotherly tradition? The spy report also mentions that Fritz had him ride in his own carriage when they left, together with Rothenburg and Golz.

Just to make things more confusing, I've now read the text you linked and the quoted spy report says "Prince Wilhelm" at one point

Oh, that's Prince Wilhelm of Hessen-Kassel, who was there as well and invited Fritz a couple of times. The modern-day essay I read has additional research on the two visits and mentions it. It also includes a facsimile of a local newspaper page which gives a list of everyone in Fritz' entourage in 1746 and has Heinrich as well.

But maybe Pöllnitz just ran into Heinrich by accident then and told.

That honestly seems like the most probable scenario to me, because I can't really imagine that Heinrich wasn't aware of Pöllnitz' reputation at that point.

From:

selenak

so Fritz still might have thought a visit to Pyrmont would do him good health-wise, Marwitz letters in between or no?

It's possible. Let's not forget, he also survived the smallpox in the previous year (I think), and thus probably had in general a weakened constitution. Otoh: 1742 and sixteen years old Heinrich strike me as extremely early for Fritz to take him along to the spa (or anywhere else), and so my instinct would be to assume in 1742, it was the Schwedt cousin of the same name (aka Seydlitz' boss and according to Zimmermann the source of bad STD advice).

I do want to point out that Heinrich might not have had the chance to say no, even if he wanted to.

True enough!

Dear Diary: Day 1 of the Trip From Hell, aka holidays with Fritz. When I first was told about this, I said: "But I thought I might have the chance to visit Rheinsberg this year". Says he: "You're going to have the chance to visit it for the rest of your life, you ungrateful brat, unlike me. This year, you're coming to the Spa with me, and if you don't start packing at once, I'm cutting down your budget again." I'm definitely going to write that pamphlet about his Silesian mistakes. Maybe it'll sell enough so I can finally pay some of my expenses on my own.

From:

felis

Smallpox - yes, November 1745. So all pretty close together indeed.

re: Schwedt cousin - did he get called "Königliche Hoheit" as well? Because see here for the departure note. But even if he did, I think the newspaper would have specified if he was meant, since their readers would have no way to know which one it was then. (Also, didn't Fritz rather dislike him at that point?) Plus, AW and Ferdinand are mentioned here as well, returning to Berlin from Potsdam, but no mention of Heinrich doing the same. That said, it's still possible that Fritz might have left him in Braunschweig to visit Charlotte on the way or something.

From:

selenak

re: Schwedt cousin - did he get called "Königliche Hoheit" as well?

Good point, because I doubt it. As grandsons of the Great Prince Elector, the Schwedt cousins were princes of the blood, but der große Kurfürst had never been King, so they wouldn’t have a claim on the “royal highness” address, they’d be more likely referred to as “Durchlaucht”. Okay, the departure note of the newspaper convinces me it was indeed Heinrich the brother not Heinrich the cousin. Hmmmm. 1742! Fritz clearly takes his new Head of the Family duties seriously then. I seem to recall 1741 letters on a note of “work harder” and then “good to know you worked harder” - maybe the trip was meant as a reward for getting on with this studies?

1745/1746! Heinrich certainly had a tumultous year, between fighting in the war, getting smallpox, falling in love, getting taunted by Big Brother for it, falling out of love (the first time) with Marwitz at some point later, and then holidays with Fritz….

From:

cahn

maybe the trip was meant as a reward for getting on with this studies?

That would be hilarious -- well, at least, for me. For Heinrich, not so much :P

That does sound like an eventful year! And some fraught holidays.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Totally unrelated, did anyone else pick up on Fritz offering a mass pardon to deserters from a particular regiment? I remember we had a debate about how common/uncommon that was when he did it for Trenck. And notably, this is peace time (the war has just ended), so it's not "We need as much cannon fodder as possible," which was definitely a thing in the Seven Years' War after the high turnover of Fritz's casualty-heavy battles. Now, maybe Fritz could guess he'd be going back to war soonish, but I don't think in 1742 manpower was a huge problem for him yet.

(Note also that this is the exact right length for an article to be in 18th century German and Font of Doom for me to be able to handle it as part of salon. Progress! :))

From:

selenak

*applauds the progress and the spotting of pardons offered in peacetime*

From:

felis

Ha, I read it but it didn't really register at the time. (Had a quick look for additional context, but didn't find anything.)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Yeah, I don't think you were around for our Trenck discussion, when Selena thought pardons were something only Peter Keith and Prussian Trenck got, and I thought they were rather more common. I wasn't sure how common in peacetime, but we've now got an example of a mass peacetime pardon. (Well, sort-of peacetime: Europe was at war, and Prussia ended up rejoining hostilities in just 2 years, and Heinrich later said Fritz should have been able to predict that he would need to go back to war, so perhaps he was predicting it, or at least would rather have deserters back in the army where they could be useful in case of need than dead!)

What's unusual about Trenck is still that he's getting a pardon so as *not* to rejoin the army. But pardons per se evidently weren't a big deal, which does change the picture of just how unusual Trenck's pardon was. (There's a difference between pardoning someone that's commonly pardoned for a different reason, and pardoning someone for something that virtually always has the death penalty enforced.)

From:

cahn

Dear Diary:

omg this is AWESOME, yes please keep going!

I'm definitely going to write that pamphlet about his Silesian mistakes. Maybe it'll sell enough so I can finally pay some of my expenses on my own.

HAHAHAHA omg poor Heinrich :D

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Dear Diary: Day 1 of the Trip From Hell, aka holidays with Fritz.

What

cahn says, keep going!

From:

selenak

Dear Diary: Wouldn't you know it, Himself sprang the money for a separate chaise for the dogs, but I have to sit in the same carriage with him. I offered to take the ride with his musicians instead, not least because I was hoping to get an autograph from Salimbeni. You should have seen the royal glare. So it's hours on the (terrible) road with Fritz. I used all the perfume I could get my hands on. (Look, I've been his AD in the last war, I know how to prepare!) He snuffed even more tobacco than usual and asked whether I was already over M. since I insisted on smelling like a rentboy on the prowl. I said evidently he knew more about rentboys than I did, given I never had the money to pay for one nor needed to, but that I wasn't surprised at his more extended knowledge in this regard.

Day 2: Arrival in Pyrmont. The nightmare continues. Fritz insisted on the local spa doctors examining me first. "Just in case his face doesn't give it away, he's had the smallpox last year," he said. "And I wouldn't be surprised if he's had the other pox as well, given the company he's kept." I kept myself from fratricide by starting to work on my my opus magnum, tentatively titled "The Anti-Fritz". Must remember to steal Voltaire's address from Fritz and ask V. how much Dutch printers demand or pay.

Later that day. At last, a perk! One of the daily rituals involves silent walkings, with intermittent water drinking. For ALL guests. That means Fritz actually has to shut up for at least an hour. And wonder of wonders, he sticks to the treatment.

From:

cahn

ahahaha you are the best and I am filled with so much glee reading this :D <3

I offered to take the ride with his musicians instead, not least because I was hoping to get an autograph from Salimbeni. You should have seen the royal glare.

LOL! I hear you, Heinrich! (He would have had a much better time, at that! Though maybe would have gotten bored more easily :P )

He snuffed even more tobacco than usual and asked whether I was already over M. since I insisted on smelling like a rentboy on the prowl. I said evidently he knew more about rentboys than I did, given I never had the money to pay for one nor needed to, but that I wasn't surprised at his more extended knowledge in this regard.

OMG THESE GUYS
(it's funny because they SO would have had a conversation like that!)

tentatively titled "The Anti-Fritz".

HAHAHAHA FOREVER

And wonder of wonders, he sticks to the treatment.
Now that is surprising! :D (He doesn't spend the whole time talking about how he has better ideas for treatment? ;) )

From:

mildred_of_midgard

(He would have had a much better time, at that! Though maybe would have gotten bored more easily :P )

The dilemma of Heinrich's life. :P

From:

selenak

Day 3: Clearly, the medical strategy pursued here is curing the patients by lots of sleep, produced by general boredom. The local musicians are terrible. And Himself said his own musicians were off limits to anyone but himself. Adds he: "If you're bored, you can always walk my dogs."

Then there are the other guests. All of whom are either swarming Fritz and telling him how wonderful he is, or talking to me in the hope I'll introduce them to him, with "talking" being a euphemism for "raving on how wonderful Fritz is". I tried to entertain myself by figuring out who the spies are, but that's almost too easy.

Day 4: Am making progress with the "Anti-Fritz", but not yet with the Voltaire address stealing, as that would involve working my way through Fritz' swarm of admirers or begging for a private audience. (NEVER.) Letter from Wilhelm who mentions the Firstborn definitely made up, which he knows because Pöllnitz thinks Wilhelmine was working on a trashy tell all about our family and now has stopped (the proof of which is that she doesn't ask Pöllnitz for anecdotes anymore). I'd say it only proves she knows all of Pöllnitz stories, and anyway, why should Wilhemine write a trashy tell all? That's MY mission in life!

Day 5: Have decided my trashy tell all can only be better than Wilhelmine's potential trashy tell all if I have Fritz stories to tell, which unfortunatetely involves interacting with Fritz. So, merely in the interest of my literary future, I contrived to have breakfeast with the Almighty. (He gets up early enough for most of the admirers to still be asleep, so the amount of Fritz-fawning I have to listen to is at its lowest then.) Says he: "Doesn't look as if the waters agree with you, or is there another explanation for that shade of green you're exhibiting?" (This is Fritz speak for "Admit it, you're jealous as hell and desperately want to be me." ) "It's the local cuisine," I returned. "They're putting on way too much honey and syrup on every offering. I bet you're starved for some saltiness yourself."

Re: From Pyrmont With Love? Waters, Spies, and Dogs

From:

mildred_of_midgard - Date: 2021-07-17 07:03 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: From Pyrmont With Love? Waters, Spies, and Dogs

From:

cahn - Date: 2021-07-18 05:03 am (UTC) - Expand

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Ahhh, this is so great! (We knew it would be, that's why we wanted more!)

I used all the perfume I could get my hands on. (Look, I've been his AD in the last war, I know how to prepare!) He snuffed even more tobacco than usual

Ahahaha, Heinrich, always the strategist! And love him getting the last word.

"Just in case his face doesn't give it away, he's had the smallpox last year," he said. "And I wouldn't be surprised if he's had the other pox as well, given the company he's kept."

FRITZ.

I kept myself from fratricide by starting to work on my my opus magnum, tentatively titled "The Anti-Fritz".

Genius! Especially since we can only imagine how much Henry would have to disclaim if he ever got into power. :P

That means Fritz actually has to shut up for at least an hour. And wonder of wonders, he sticks to the treatment.

I laughed so hard.

Btw, did Jessen say anything about Fritz boring the Austrians to sleep during either of his meetings with ViennaJoe? Duffy has this claim that I've been meaning to ask you about, but as we've seen, Duffy has FW claiming he just pretended to be into austerity and tall guys, and Fritz claiming he only pretended not to like women. So I question everything.

From:

selenak

did Jessen say anything about Fritz boring the Austrians to sleep during either of his meetings with ViennaJoe?

Not that I recall, but then, I've read many books since and might have forgotten. But to my knowledge, the two main documents Jessen provides for the two meetings are a) Joseph's letter to MT, and b) excerpts from de Ligne's memoirs. Neither Joseph nor de Ligne considered Fritz boring, but maybe other attendants did! Especially if exposed to the 16 hours marathon talks of two know-it-alls.

Fritz sticking to the treatment is from the article

felis linked. He also claims that virtue when swapping stories with Wilhelmine about taking the waters. (She was usually v.v. bored in spas, but had to go on account of her health.)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Especially if exposed to the 16 hours marathon talks of two know-it-alls.

Hahaha, yes, okay, I can see that. :D

She was usually v.v. bored in spas, but had to go on account of her health.

Oh, right, I remember that from Oster, now that you mention it!

Re: From Pyrmont With Love? Waters, Spies, and Dogs

From:

cahn - Date: 2021-07-18 05:05 am (UTC) - Expand

From:

felis

He snuffed even more tobacco than usual and asked whether I was already over M. since I insisted on smelling like a rentboy on the prowl. I said evidently he knew more about rentboys than I did, given I never had the money to pay for one nor needed to, but that I wasn't surprised at his more extended knowledge in this regard.

*snort*

(Did Fritz have the excessive tobacco habit this early on? Somehow I took it as something that developed over time, not something that applied to young Fritz quite as much - but I could well be wrong about that.)

tentatively titled "The Anti-Fritz"

It's the "tentatively" that makes it. :D

From:

selenak

Outside of crack fic, the excessive tobacco habit is something I associate more with middle-aged onwards Fritz, it's true, but: after two Silesian Wars, I imagine he was already well and true into the habit. Let's face it, all addicts use more when under stress.

From:

cahn

If so, though, making jokes about Heinrich needing to marry was very much not the way to go about it*, and I bet for Heinrich, those were the holidays from hell.

OMG, yeah. Especially given what you say above about it being right after the Marwitz letters, woooooow. ...But I can totally see, as you say, Fritz deciding a Fun Family Vacation would be Just The Thing for Heinrich. He probably thought Heinrich was an ungrateful brat for not appreciating the Fun Family Vacation, too.

(And then the musicians were a let down, too.)

Heh, poor Heinrich!