Definitely a generation later, though Gluck and Haydn yes, but not Mozart. I had to look up some stuff about Paris in 1778, which is when young Mozart is there being profoundly miserable (his mother dies, and he doesn't have success in Paris, very much as opposed to 1763 when he and Nannerl were the much loved, petted and admired miracle children during the Mozart Europe tour). So in 1776, he's being miserable in Salzburg with Archbishop Colloredo. The wonderboy years are over, and success as an adult has not happened yet. I mean, naturally he did not stop composing during those years, but other than his family and the Archbishop of Salzburg, people would not have known the results.
Like I said, if I hadn't read this very week about it I might be uncertain about the dates, though there it is, as Shaffer has Joseph constantly say.
Incidentally, on a note of "it's a small world": When Leopold and his family were in Paris in 1763, one of their biggest admirers and supporters was Melchior (von) Grimm, whom we've come across repeatedly in other contexts, about which more in a moment. So when Mozart in 1778 went to Paris, of course Dad Leopold told him to visit Grimm and asked Grimm to help him. Alas, even before Mom Mozart died, Grimm this time around could not produce the same results, and what's more, he and adult Wolfgang Amadé irritated each other profoundly. (Grimm wrote to Leopold he wished Wolfgang had half the talent and twice the common sense and manners instead.) After his mother's death, Grimm nonetheless offered his place for Mozart to live in, and that's fascinating for music history because at the same time, Joseph Bologne, the Chevalier de Saint-George (foremost fencer of Europe, very successful composer a decade older than Mozart - and the son of a French planter and a slave, like Dumas' Dad) lived there. But in the end, it was no good, and Mozart left, never to see Paris again (nor wanting to).
So, Grimm: will only a few years after Mozart host Heinrich and be his go to guide in Paris, much more succesfully. This is because Grimm since decades has been publishing the Correspondance Litteraire, the world's most exclusive journal, twice a month, with a circulation of only 16 to 25 people, none of them French, most of them German nobles yearning to read about what was going on in Paris culturally. Their copy of the journal was delivered by mail, and they had to promise not to have it copied or reprinted anywhere. (Subscribers included the Divine Trio - in fact, AW, Heinrich and Ferdinand were the very first subscribers, though for money saving purposes they shared a subscription among themselves, Brother Fritz not ready to provide cash for three separate copies in 1753, Catherine in Russia (which is why Grimm later became her cultural agent in Paris once she was Czarina), Stanislaw Poniatowski, Heinrich's mother-in-law in Hesse-Darmstadt (who shared her copies with Fritz for three years in the vain hope of making him spring a subscription himself), Ulrike in Sweden (and later son Gustav), Anna Amalia and son Carl August later.)
Melchior Grimm was one of the all time German-goes-to-Paris success stories. He'd started out as a clergyman's son in Regensburg, then studied in Leipzig which is why he was actually the guy to hold the laudatory speech on Manteuffel's 50 years immatriculation anniversary, and then went with a noble patron to Paris where he remained. His day jobs included being private secretary to the Duc d'Orleans (the father of Philipé Egalité, aka the one who'd vote for Cousin Louis' beheading in the National Assembly), he befriended Diderot and Roussau (until they broke up, which is why Rousseau trashes him in his memoirs), and his life long companion Louise d'Epinay was one of the most succesful salon hostesses (and a writer herself) in Paris at the time. When Grimm himself was travelling and thus not in Paris to report on culturale events, she and Diderot were writing the articles for the journal. The article on the Mozarts which is quoted in most biographies is dated December 1st 1763 and is Grimm's eyewitness account of listening to Nannerl (eleven) and Wolfgang (six) perform.
One more thing: Fritz: refuses to meet Grimm in 1766. Finally meets him in 1769, starts a correspondence with him which lasts till his (Fritz') death. Fritz: never subscribes to the Correspondence Litteraire, presumably thinking he gets his letters from Grimm for free anyway.
Ah, okay! At first I was like "maybe not Mozart?" but then I went and looked at his list of compositions and there were a bunch of good ones :) But, I see, that makes sense.
(Grimm wrote to Leopold he wished Wolfgang had half the talent and twice the common sense and manners instead.)
Heh. I can totally see that.
So, Grimm: will only a few years after Mozart host Heinrich and be his go to guide in Paris, much more succesfully.
Lol, I bet Heinrich had way better manners than Wolfgang! Regardless of what Fritz might think :P
(Subscribers included the Divine Trio - in fact, AW, Heinrich and Ferdinand were the very first subscribers, though for money saving purposes they shared a subscription among themselves, Brother Fritz not ready to provide cash for three separate copies in 1753, Catherine in Russia (which is why Grimm later became her cultural agent in Paris once she was Czarina), Stanislaw Poniatowski, Heinrich's mother-in-law in Hesse-Darmstadt (who shared her copies with Fritz for three years in the vain hope of making him spring a subscription himself), Ulrike in Sweden (and later son Gustav), Anna Amalia and son Carl August later.)
Wooooow, this is like a who's who of people in our fandom! (As long as they weren't French -- and I also don't see any Austrians on that list?)
Fritz: never subscribes to the Correspondence Litteraire, presumably thinking he gets his letters from Grimm for free anyway.
Lol, I bet Heinrich had way better manners than Wolfgang! Regardless of what Fritz might think :P
Well, quite, though to be fair, Heinrich was blissfully happy and fulfilling a life long dream, while Wolfgang didn't want to be there to begin with and had a miserable time even before his mother died. He'd met Aloysia Weber in Mannheim, fallen in love, and wanted to tour Italy with her, establishing her as a prima donna and himself as a composer. Leopold somewhat understandably thought this idea was nuts. His arguments: Italy, which had hundreds of home grown, well trained singers, and lots and lots of composers! They were hardly waiting for a German newbie like Aloysia to make her a primadonna. Paris, by contrast, had according to Leopold only two or so composers-plus-musicians who could be regarded as serious competition, people had fond memories of the boy wonder, and thus Paris was ideal for Wolfgang to make his name as an adult. Without Aloysia. Net result: Leopold insisted, Wolfgang went, Aloysia broke up with him and became a prima donna on her own, in Germany, though, not Italy, and no one in Paris was interested in him.
Oh, btw: back in the 1760s, the Mozarts did meet a Hohenzollern sibling - Amalie! They had avoided Prussian territory on their three years European tour (which overlapped with the last year of the 7 Years War), but Amalie was taking the waters in Aix-la-Chapelle, and since she was famous as a musical connosseur, Wolfgang and Nannerl played for her. She was delighted and made much of them, but you could tell Leopold was starting to get jaded about princes and princesses, because while at the start of the tour he'd reported triumphantly when Wolfgang kissed MT in Vienna and got kisses from her, he wrote when the same happened with Amalie "I wish all these kisses were Taler, given the bill at our inn". (Again, to be fair: MT had given presents as well after the concert - money (as much as Leopold made as concert master in Salzburg in three months) and wardrobe, one worn gala outfit from an arch duchess and arch duke for Nannerl and Wolfgang each - this btw wasn't the equivalent of a hand-me-down, it was a very valuable gift in its own right, because those gala outfits weren't every day cloths but pretty expensive.) Look, Leopold, MT is a de facto Empress; Amalie is an Abbess with an Abbey which had a lot of rebuilding to do after the war, and the sister of a super thrifty brother!
Wooooow, this is like a who's who of people in our fandom! (As long as they weren't French -- and I also don't see any Austrians on that list?)
Well spotted, I hadn't noticed. Mind you, for all I know there were Austrians there as well, they just weren't among the examples wiki provides.
Huh, this is interesting; I don't know as much about Mozart as I ought to, discounting early exposure to Amadeus which I know doesn't count :P (Though I do know more since reading snippets from you on your DW and in salon! <3 ) Leopold, heh, I do feel kind of sorry for him, always having to talk Wolfgang out of terrible ideas like Italy and feeding his baby sugar water instead of milk (WTF Wolfgang??)
Ooh, well, at least I'm glad Amalie met them? :) "I wish all these kisses were Taler, given the bill at our inn" Aw, Leopold, I can see where he's coming from :)
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
timeasmymeasure
Re: Music and Hohenzollerns
Date: 2021-03-26 08:26 am (UTC)Like I said, if I hadn't read this very week about it I might be uncertain about the dates, though there it is, as Shaffer has Joseph constantly say.
Incidentally, on a note of "it's a small world": When Leopold and his family were in Paris in 1763, one of their biggest admirers and supporters was Melchior (von) Grimm, whom we've come across repeatedly in other contexts, about which more in a moment. So when Mozart in 1778 went to Paris, of course Dad Leopold told him to visit Grimm and asked Grimm to help him. Alas, even before Mom Mozart died, Grimm this time around could not produce the same results, and what's more, he and adult Wolfgang Amadé irritated each other profoundly. (Grimm wrote to Leopold he wished Wolfgang had half the talent and twice the common sense and manners instead.) After his mother's death, Grimm nonetheless offered his place for Mozart to live in, and that's fascinating for music history because at the same time, Joseph Bologne, the Chevalier de Saint-George (foremost fencer of Europe, very successful composer a decade older than Mozart - and the son of a French planter and a slave, like Dumas' Dad) lived there. But in the end, it was no good, and Mozart left, never to see Paris again (nor wanting to).
So, Grimm: will only a few years after Mozart host Heinrich and be his go to guide in Paris, much more succesfully. This is because Grimm since decades has been publishing the Correspondance Litteraire, the world's most exclusive journal, twice a month, with a circulation of only 16 to 25 people, none of them French, most of them German nobles yearning to read about what was going on in Paris culturally. Their copy of the journal was delivered by mail, and they had to promise not to have it copied or reprinted anywhere. (Subscribers included the Divine Trio - in fact, AW, Heinrich and Ferdinand were the very first subscribers, though for money saving purposes they shared a subscription among themselves, Brother Fritz not ready to provide cash for three separate copies in 1753, Catherine in Russia (which is why Grimm later became her cultural agent in Paris once she was Czarina), Stanislaw Poniatowski, Heinrich's mother-in-law in Hesse-Darmstadt (who shared her copies with Fritz for three years in the vain hope of making him spring a subscription himself), Ulrike in Sweden (and later son Gustav), Anna Amalia and son Carl August later.)
Melchior Grimm was one of the all time German-goes-to-Paris success stories. He'd started out as a clergyman's son in Regensburg, then studied in Leipzig which is why he was actually the guy to hold the laudatory speech on Manteuffel's 50 years immatriculation anniversary, and then went with a noble patron to Paris where he remained. His day jobs included being private secretary to the Duc d'Orleans (the father of Philipé Egalité, aka the one who'd vote for Cousin Louis' beheading in the National Assembly), he befriended Diderot and Roussau (until they broke up, which is why Rousseau trashes him in his memoirs), and his life long companion Louise d'Epinay was one of the most succesful salon hostesses (and a writer herself) in Paris at the time. When Grimm himself was travelling and thus not in Paris to report on culturale events, she and Diderot were writing the articles for the journal. The article on the Mozarts which is quoted in most biographies is dated December 1st 1763 and is Grimm's eyewitness account of listening to Nannerl (eleven) and Wolfgang (six) perform.
One more thing: Fritz: refuses to meet Grimm in 1766. Finally meets him in 1769, starts a correspondence with him which lasts till his (Fritz') death. Fritz: never subscribes to the Correspondence Litteraire, presumably thinking he gets his letters from Grimm for free anyway.
Re: Grimm
Date: 2021-04-07 05:17 am (UTC)(Grimm wrote to Leopold he wished Wolfgang had half the talent and twice the common sense and manners instead.)
Heh. I can totally see that.
So, Grimm: will only a few years after Mozart host Heinrich and be his go to guide in Paris, much more succesfully.
Lol, I bet Heinrich had way better manners than Wolfgang! Regardless of what Fritz might think :P
(Subscribers included the Divine Trio - in fact, AW, Heinrich and Ferdinand were the very first subscribers, though for money saving purposes they shared a subscription among themselves, Brother Fritz not ready to provide cash for three separate copies in 1753, Catherine in Russia (which is why Grimm later became her cultural agent in Paris once she was Czarina), Stanislaw Poniatowski, Heinrich's mother-in-law in Hesse-Darmstadt (who shared her copies with Fritz for three years in the vain hope of making him spring a subscription himself), Ulrike in Sweden (and later son Gustav), Anna Amalia and son Carl August later.)
Wooooow, this is like a who's who of people in our fandom! (As long as they weren't French -- and I also don't see any Austrians on that list?)
Fritz: never subscribes to the Correspondence Litteraire, presumably thinking he gets his letters from Grimm for free anyway.
LOL this is SO FRITZ.
Re: Grimm
Date: 2021-04-07 05:18 pm (UTC)Well, quite, though to be fair, Heinrich was blissfully happy and fulfilling a life long dream, while Wolfgang didn't want to be there to begin with and had a miserable time even before his mother died. He'd met Aloysia Weber in Mannheim, fallen in love, and wanted to tour Italy with her, establishing her as a prima donna and himself as a composer. Leopold somewhat understandably thought this idea was nuts. His arguments: Italy, which had hundreds of home grown, well trained singers, and lots and lots of composers! They were hardly waiting for a German newbie like Aloysia to make her a primadonna. Paris, by contrast, had according to Leopold only two or so composers-plus-musicians who could be regarded as serious competition, people had fond memories of the boy wonder, and thus Paris was ideal for Wolfgang to make his name as an adult. Without Aloysia. Net result: Leopold insisted, Wolfgang went, Aloysia broke up with him and became a prima donna on her own, in Germany, though, not Italy, and no one in Paris was interested in him.
Oh, btw: back in the 1760s, the Mozarts did meet a Hohenzollern sibling - Amalie! They had avoided Prussian territory on their three years European tour (which overlapped with the last year of the 7 Years War), but Amalie was taking the waters in Aix-la-Chapelle, and since she was famous as a musical connosseur, Wolfgang and Nannerl played for her. She was delighted and made much of them, but you could tell Leopold was starting to get jaded about princes and princesses, because while at the start of the tour he'd reported triumphantly when Wolfgang kissed MT in Vienna and got kisses from her, he wrote when the same happened with Amalie "I wish all these kisses were Taler, given the bill at our inn". (Again, to be fair: MT had given presents as well after the concert - money (as much as Leopold made as concert master in Salzburg in three months) and wardrobe, one worn gala outfit from an arch duchess and arch duke for Nannerl and Wolfgang each - this btw wasn't the equivalent of a hand-me-down, it was a very valuable gift in its own right, because those gala outfits weren't every day cloths but pretty expensive.) Look, Leopold, MT is a de facto Empress; Amalie is an Abbess with an Abbey which had a lot of rebuilding to do after the war, and the sister of a super thrifty brother!
Wooooow, this is like a who's who of people in our fandom! (As long as they weren't French -- and I also don't see any Austrians on that list?)
Well spotted, I hadn't noticed. Mind you, for all I know there were Austrians there as well, they just weren't among the examples wiki provides.
Mozarts
Date: 2021-04-10 05:34 am (UTC)Ooh, well, at least I'm glad Amalie met them? :) "I wish all these kisses were Taler, given the bill at our inn" Aw, Leopold, I can see where he's coming from :)