cahn | Frederick the Great discussion post 15

cahn

...I have nothing clever to say here, just really pleased this is still going :)

rheinsberg

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From:

cahn

Mitchell: Dear Foreign Office, the Prussian offcials were strangely intimidated at the thought.

heeeeee!

I do, because I‘ve written one fo the MT & Fritz AUs about it:)

:D I was actually thinking about that fic a lot while reading these chapters -- particularly the Heinrich quote you make up, "You are the architect of all our miseries." It really does sound exactly like what he would say if that happened.

A couple of things so far in my reading (I am falling more and more behind, but hoping to catch up this weekend):

-I kind of cringed at the description of Amalie where it was like, she was the one both with AW and SD when they died, and then even when she went to a spa wasn't cured of her nerve problems. SO not surprising! That must have been awful, especialy with what we know about her relationship with SD.

-LOL at Heinrich getting upset about not being invited to the wedding by the right person. All dysfunctional large families may be different, but I think a constant must be getting upset about wedding invitations. :P (Last year there was a big kerfluffle -- by my parents, actually -- when they thought my cousin hadn't invited them to his wedding, which to explain why they were so upset would bring in the utter dysfunction of my dad's family (in particular his parents). Spoiler: our generation is mostly free of the grandparents' dysfunction (we hope), and cousin had simply lost a stack of invites, and all ended well.)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

even when she went to a spa wasn't cured of her nerve problems. SO not surprising! That must have been awful, especialy with what we know about her relationship with SD.

Mmyeahhh. I had a very similar reaction. I thought of

selenak telling us that Lehndorff reports that she's incredibly moody, in a horrible mood one day and an angel the next, and was like...this is one of the siblings who is most invested in one of the parents being absolutely *terrible*, to the point of being willing to stop speaking to one of the other siblings over it.

Those poor kids.

I am falling more and more behind

But this is actually a good thing, because it means I'm getting more and more able to fake reading German! :D

From:

selenak

Re: Amalie - there's also another factor to consider. Remember, Mildred, you pointed out more than once that one reason why Fritz made it out of his childhood and youth scarred but with his core self intact was that so many people went behind his father's back to help him, thus signalling "it's not you, it's FW" to him. Whereas with Amalie and SD, this did not happen. FW's type of abuse was obvious even for contemporaries. SD was considered, especially in her later years, as a wonderful mother. Her sons certainly thought so, all four of them, and the court thought she was splendid, too, and that Amalie in any conflict between them was in the wrong.

(Other Seckendorff: *raises hand* I'm I'm on record as a courtier who thought Olympia was rotten about her oldest daughter.
Lehndorff: I cannot believe this. Surely, one has to honor one's mother, even if she complains in the middle of the road and has abandoned one to one's grandma for most of one's childhood. Anyway, the Queen Mother is a noble soul, and Princess Amalie is moody as hell, that's just as it is.)

So Amalie, who is the person who actually has to live with SD the longest, gets told by all and sunder that everything is right with SD as a mother and all is wrong with her, Amalie, as a daughter. Possible exception: Wilhelmine. But Wilhelmine isn't often in Berlin, and Amalie was never in Bayreuth, so the extent to which they could have bonded over seeing SD in a far darker light than their brothers is limited.

I suspect one (of several) reasons why so many people were quick to believe Trenck's memoirs once he went public with his identification of her as his mystery lady in volume 3 is that a tragic love affair was an explanation for Amalie's disposition far more contemporaries could accept than "being a female Hohenzollern with all the baggage plus the joy of being there was no baggage and you should be grateful".

Otoh, what's his name the American biographer who follows Pangels in being indignant young Amalie and Ulrike ask Fritz for money has no excuse.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

That is a very excellent point. Poor Amalie. I'm sorry, Amalie! Sucks to be a Hohenzollern. :/

so many people went behind his father's back to help him, thus signalling "it's not you, it's FW" to him

Yeah, both the people who went behind his back, and also the fact that just generally EVERY noble father in Europe, whether Fritz ever met them or not, let their kid read books and learn music, even the manly Prussian soldier types like Hans Heinrich. Fritz got implicit as well as explicit validation.

Whereas Amalie...

Her sons certainly thought so, all four of them

I mean, I wouldn't be surprised, between the fact that realizing your parents abused you is *really hard*, and the fact that he was a golden retriever, but...even the son she threatened to have whipped with a rod if he didn't ask his father for the life of a deserter? And he, at the age of four, was understandably reluctant? Cause I've been wondering about AW and his mother. I wouldn't expect overt criticism, but if he, as Dad's favorite, were a little less overtly enthusiastic about the best of all possible mothers, it would be understandable.

Honestly, I can't imagine how bad Wilhelmine had it, between being Mom's prime target, being first ignored and then abused by Dad, as opposed to being the favorite of one and hated by the other, and then that governess that almost crippled her for life...Sonsine must have been a total sanity-saver there. There's only so much a younger abused brother can do.

Otoh, what's his name the American biographer who follows Pangels in being indignant young Amalie and Ulrike ask Fritz for money has no excuse.

MacDonogh, and yep. Amalie, Ulrike, Heinrich, AW, and Ferdinand all just fail to appreciate Fritz's greatness and chill. He's critical of Fritz in other ways, he's not Preuss, but he is definitely of the Pangels school when it comes to the siblings.

From:

selenak

re: AW and SD, we just don't have enough data to say. I mean, what I recall from various biographies and those letters that are online:

- when he got Oranienburg from Fritz, he organized that spectacular party for her which Pöllnitz described (and Fontane quotes from Pöllnitz' description in in his chapter on Oranienburg), which pleased her greatly, but then, party throwing was what the divine trio did when not doing drills at Spandau

- Fritz and he had this exchange in the early 1740s:

Fritz: So, we're planning a family trip to the countryside, but do we have to take my whiny wife ("Zimperliese" is how the biographies translate it) and your whiny wife with us? They'll spoil everything! Plz ask Mom whether she doesn't object to them coming along.

AW: Mom says she's okay with my whiny wife coming along and doesn't care one way or the other about yours.

Fritz: Must you always be so literal? Way to miss the point. Which is that I want a Braunschweig less family trip.

EC: Dear brother Ferd, they're all gone to have fun in the countryside and I'm sitting like a prisoner here.

And then there's the way the goodbye stuff in the summer of 1756 happens. They use the occasion of AW's birthday (August 9th) for a big family party where all the sons are there and SD sees them without knowing this is also a farewell party. Because Amalie will be stuck with telling her they're off to war. And there, we get:

Fritz: So do you think I should make an additonal visit to Monbijou to say goodybe to Mom or is that too inconspcious or upsetting?

AW: Best not, she'll know what's up. Leave it to Amalie to tell her.

(Amalie: THANKS EVER SO MUCH, GUYS.)

My point is, why doesn't Fritz, who is the favourite son and King, ask/decide on this directly? Because AW is regarded as having a good emotional reading on SD, I guess, which wouldn't be the case if they were at some distance.

HOWEVER. It's also possible to consider a few other factors, to wit: In his memo about who he'd distribute the budget were he King which AW wrote to do something useful in the late 1740s, he thinks the reigning queen should get more money than the queen mother. Given that he wasn't enthusiastic about his wife as a person, this could have been understood as an indirect critique of SD or Fritz or both.

Then there's something that only occurred to me during my current occupation, and it's this: at no point do AW or Heinrich consider asking their mother for help when they have Fritz trouble. For that matter, Ulrike (re: getting Fritz to finally pay her dowry) doesn't, either. Now obviously such occasions like the Marwitz affair would have been out of the question, but that's not true for other occasions. Yes, Fritz has made it clear he won't accept political interference. But disagreements like whether or not Heinrich gets to go on the Grand Tour, or has to marry, or for that matter whether AW gets the permission to divorce Luise - that, in theory, could have been something where they could have asked her for her support or intercession. Instead, the one occasion we know of where SD did the opposite of intercede on the behalf a sibling with Fritz we know of is when Wilhelmine's lunch with MT happened, and SD immediately came down hard on her and wrote "do you know what your idiot sister has done?" to the others. And I think that, if they didn't already know it, made it clear to everyone that you do not expect Mom to have your back or provide emotional support if it's a matter between you and Fritz.

Whereas Wilhelmine's adult relationship with AW may have started when she met him again during the 1740 aborted trip to France as a grown up, but it really solidified during the big Fritz enstrangement, when he was the only family member who wasn't all "how could you?" but tried to help. That Ulrike asks AW for intercession with the dowry question isn't that surprising, she's the sister closest in age to him, but that she doesn't ask dearest Mama at the same time is telling. And Heinrich, llike I said, at no point seems to have tried to get Mom to maybe change Big Bro's mind. Basically, AW is everyone's mediator with the authority figure (first FW, then Fritz) and provider of emotional support, which is the role that goes to the mother figure in most family dynamics.

Now, obviously Ulrike, Amalie and the other sisters had governesses like Wilihelmine had Sonsine, and maybe they lucked out with theirs, too. And of course SD herself had grown up without a mother after the age of 6 and, even within the mores of the time where getting raised by the help was the usual thing, had a skewed idea about what a mother should or shouldn't provide for her children in terms of emotion. But even so, I think it's telling that the younger siblings regarded even getting any kind of attention from Mom as mothering, but didn't really expect her to fight for them or even just to help. I think that's a common denominator for all the siblings - you draw that kind of nurturing affection from each other, or you don't get it at all.

Honestly, I can't imagine how bad Wilhelmine had it, between being Mom's prime target, being first ignored and then abused by Dad, as opposed to being the favorite of one and hated by the other, and then that governess that almost crippled her for life...Sonsine must have been a total sanity-saver there. There's only so much a younger abused brother can do.

Sonsine and writing thereapeutic revenge operas and trashy memoirs. But yes. You can tell when the early 20th century biographers have discovered Freud & Co., and all go how Wilhelmine is an excellent example of female hysteria. You think, guys? Mind you, in addition to 18th century medicine I think at least a part of her many illnesses were probably psychosomatic, and yes, of course the memoirs are biased as hell. But good Lord, given her youth, it's a wonder she was as sane as she managed to be. And capable of love. Possessively and co-dependently in the case of Fritz, but she had affection for the majority of the younger sibs as well, and clearly for her husband.

Edited Date: 2020-05-16 04:41 pm (UTC)

From:

cahn

My point is, why doesn't Fritz, who is the favourite son and King, ask/decide on this directly? Because AW is regarded as having a good emotional reading on SD, I guess, which wouldn't be the case if they were at some distance.

IDK, I would also believe AW having the most emotional intelligence of all of the kids and so he was the one you would go to ask about stuff like How To Deal With Your Emotionally Messed-Up Mom. Supported by what you say above about how everyone went to him for help with conflicts, which makes me feel that in addition to being easy-going he must have known at least a little how to defuse conflict (until the Big One, of course).

Then there's something that only occurred to me during my current occupation, and it's this: at no point do AW or Heinrich consider asking their mother for help when they have Fritz trouble.

OH. That is SUCH a good point. Wow, yeah. That... says a lot.

Those poor kids :(

From:

mildred_of_midgard

IDK, I would also believe AW having the most emotional intelligence of all of the kids and so he was the one you would go to ask about stuff like How To Deal With Your Emotionally Messed-Up Mom.

I was going to say exactly this. Part of AW having his shit together the most might include the ability this sort of thing out even with someone he has mixed feelings about. And the ability to maintain a decent, if not super close, with someone he privately has mixed feelings about.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

but then, party throwing was what the divine trio did when not doing drills at Spandau

This is why "invited" and "invitation" were the first words I learned!

AW: Mom says she's okay with my whiny wife coming along and doesn't care one way or the other about yours.

Lol, AW. Also, I'm reminded of Heinrich writing to his brother Ferd about how his wife bores him, and I'm like...only because you're married! EC would have bored Fritz regardless, but Heinrich is clearly in "you are a PTSD trigger and walking incarnation of my brother's power to mess up my life!" mode toward Mina.

And I think that, if they didn't already know it, made it clear to everyone that you do not expect Mom to have your back or provide emotional support if it's a matter between you and Fritz.

Ooof, yeah. That's an excellent point. They so avoid doing it that it hadn't even occurred to me as an option. Why would you ask SD for help? That's what AW is for!

This is not uncommon in abusive families, for one kid to have to take over a certain parenting role, or to become the peacekeeper.

I think it's telling that the younger siblings regarded even getting any kind of attention from Mom as mothering, but didn't really expect her to fight for them or even just to help.

Agreed. Ouch.

Sonsine and writing thereapeutic revenge operas and trashy memoirs.

Indeed, but Sonsine is so critical precisely because she comes along during those formative years. Interventions in childhood vastly outstrip therapy in adulthood in terms of the power to help.

But good Lord, given her youth, it's a wonder she was as sane as she managed to be. And capable of love.

Agreed. Like Fritz, she came out battered but with a core intact. Which I find very impressive. It's why "but children are resilient!" as a response to childhood trauma is both true and false. Children adapt and survive and come out semi-functional, but they adapt *around* the space the trauma occupies in their psyche. They may look as functional as Wilhelmine to the outside observer, but be falling apart physically (agree with you that chronic stress is no good for physical health) and have some messed up emotional reflexes, like the neediness around Fritz. (Not gonna get on her case about that; that's the least unhealthy thing a Hohenzollern ever did. It strikes me as a reasonable coping mechanism, given the circumstances.)