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Re: Heinrich readthrough!
Date: 2020-05-04 02:53 am (UTC)I'm behind on Heinrich commentary, alas, because I'm reading on my phone, and it's very hard to take notes there on what I want to talk about. And the last few days, when I've been at the computer, I've been working on my fanfic! (I'm still in this fandom, iow, just in a more solitary way.)
But I had the same reaction to the "tall guy" line! That was hilarious.
Spelling: so it's Kalckreuth (the one Ziebura and wiki uses), or Kalkreuth (valid alternate spelling), but the OCR in the file you're looking at sometimes reads a 't' as a 'c' (I've seen 'cat' for 'tat' in German), hence the Kalckreuch. If you keep reading, you'll see it start correctly guessing Kalckreuth.
Looks like Stabi has both his and Henckel's memoirs online, which I assume our fearless reader is already on top of. If not, I can drop them into the library.
Mina: Yeah. I cringed when I got to that "why are you even asking?" line. Poor everyone.
My own notes:
* I got to the part where short!Heinrich charges into the water up to his chest and everyone is so impressed they had to follow him! I remember
* My review went well. I sing hallelujah! My food was just as good as my regiment. My maître d'hotel has placed large pies on the right and in the center and a soup on the left wing.
I thought the military terminology for the feast was hilarious. (I'm assuming "left wing" isn't normal tablesetting terminology.) If you've just spent the last several weeks in a high state of stress over your review, naturally you're going to automatically see everything in those terms!
Help Google Translate out with the next sentence, "Sire hat mächtig gespachtelt"? I'm guessing something like "really tucked in/ate his fill"? Google gave me "spatulated a lot," which is entertaining, but does not lend clarity.
* Ziebura says the brothers visited Berlin for ten days in early January 1757. I went and looked at Lehndorff, and I can't quite tell when they arrived, but he has them dining with SD on January 11. This makes me sad, because we had decided a while ago that Fritz and Peter might have seen each other one last time before Peter died on December 27 (and I had a whole plot!), but now I'm thinking not. :(
I know this is supposed to be the sibling thread, but some of us have boyfriend fic to write, or at least dream of writing. :P
* Looking at Lehndorff, I find that I still can't read German, but I can read it a bit better! It's the little things in life. :D I'm also seeing lots of words that I know I've seen a few times before, and if I just see them a few more times, I'll finally remember what they mean, so that's promising.
* There are probably other things I'm forgetting, but it's really hard to interrupt my German concentration long enough to switch to a different app and use the bluetooth mouse to type out notes on what I want to talk about. :/
Peter
Date: 2020-05-04 03:50 am (UTC)Suhm: Are you CRAZY? No! I love you, but someone has to think about the consequences here.
Katte: This is a really, REALLY bad idea, to go with your last bad idea. I don't know how I let you keep talking me into these things. Can we at least take some precautions?
Keith: Sodomy? Desertion? Sign me up!
:P
Now, why they're like this is an interesting question. For Keith, I'm going for some combination of impressionable in the face of Fritz's very strong personality, and a high tolerance for risk, especially for anything that involves shipping him/Fritz. This is related to why he will be the one who rides all the way back to Bayreuth from France to bring Wilhelmine word that Fritz is still alive in hiding, and she should totally desert too. Then everyone lives happily ever after, and we can imagine future Lehndorff waving his "true hero" fan club banner. :)
Re: Peter
Date: 2020-05-04 05:03 pm (UTC)BTW: do you believe the description from FW's "Wanted" poster or from Lehndorff's diary re: his Looks? :)
Re: Peter
Date: 2020-05-05 05:00 am (UTC)BTW: do you believe the description from FW's "Wanted" poster or from Lehndorff's diary re: his Looks? :)
The physical description in the letter to Deggendorff of Peter Keith: medium height, pale, thin body, brown hair, cross-eyed. Our Lehndorff also notes the cross eyedness, but adds Peter is good looking, which FW for some reason does not Mention. The reason being only medium height.
I don't see any contradiction between them, just a different selection of details for different purposes. Even if Peter Keith had been an Adonis among men, I don't think FW is about to mention that in his "Wanted" poster. ;) The only question is how much Lehndorff's a) personal tastes, b) slight crush play a role in his perception of Peter's attractiveness. Which I think we'll never know.
For fic, I'm going with him as the most conventionally good-looking of the four--him, Fritz, Katte, Suhm--but nothing that makes people stop and turn their heads. It's not exactly stiff competition--all the canonical "hot or not?" reports of Fritz and Katte agree on "not!" and while we don't know about Suhm, he's 39 and possibly sickly, so... I like to invoke a Randy Pausch analogy at times like this: "Being considered the best speaker in the computer science department is like being known as the tallest of the Seven Dwarfs."
In terms of handsomeness, Peter is going to be the tallest of our Seven Dwarfs in this fic. ;)
Height-wise, btw, I've got Katte the shortest ("shorter than average" according to someone I'd have to check, but I think Pöllnitz), then Fritz, then our medium height Peter, then just for variety's sake I've gone for Suhm as not tall, but slightly taller than Peter. Not tall enough to catch FW's eye. ;)
Wilhelmine might be about Fritz's height? I don't think we know? But she was tall for a woman and he was short to average for a man, so that's my guess. I think you went for that in "Fiat Justitia," if I'm remembering correctly.
I still laugh over "The reason being only medium height," btw. Every so often, I stop to remember it and I laugh.
Memoirs, Defenses and Glasow, Oh My!
Date: 2020-05-04 06:35 am (UTC)(Published Henckel von Donnersmarcks with Heinrich connections: Victor Leo Amadeus - the one serving with him in the Seventh Years War. Got a mention on the obelisk. His son: the one Heinrich took care of after his father's death, along with the widow. Is responsible for some of the excentric old age Heinrich anecdotes. Grandson: editor of Grandpa's letters and papers.)
(The library in Munich has the selection of letters from the Divine Trio to Henckel v. Donnersmarck, edited by his grandson, which the Allgemeine Deutsche Biographie entry is fuming about because so unfair to The Great.)
Anyway, if you could find the correct Henckel v. Donnersmarck & Kalckreuth, and in German, not French, then by all means, put it in the library. I've been reading the Kalckreuth online, more below, but a pdf is handier.
"Sire hat mächtig gespachtelt"? I'm guessing something like "really tucked in/ate his fill"?
That is correct. And yes, lol at the military terminology which no, isn't usual for meals.
The ten days visit of the brothers in Berlin in January 1747: alas for Peter. Though in general, make sure you check the second Lehndorff volume which has more on this visit compared to the first one.
Now, I've got some quotes for you: Online, completely is an essay by Jürgen Luh (the deconstructing Fritz biographer) about AW in 1757, as well as the changing takes on the subject in historiography, here. Here's Luh having a go at various Fritz-was-right historians, in this case, Gustav Volz.
Luh quotiong Volz, Volz is speaking: "The Prince claims that he needed to wait for the orders of the King whom he's asked for - but didn't the war situation demand instant action? Winterfeldt hit the crucial point when reporting (to Fritz) on July 26th: "Nothing can result from all these war counselling, it needs someone to command with resolution.""
Here Volz conveniently neglects to mention that the "war counselling" generals (advising AW) included the later celebrated by every historian generals Seydlitz and Zieten, as well as Normann, a protegé of Winterfeldts, and Lestwitz. To accuse them of incompetence would have been rather difficult."
Quite. Luh in general points out that contemporary writers like Henckel von Donnersmarck defending AW were later dismissed by historians due to their connection to Heinrich, and Heinrich himself as blinded by his love for AW and hate for Fritz, while the fact that later Prussian folk heroes like Seydlitz and Zieten had agreed with AW as well could be left out because neither had left memoirs. As for the critical matter itself, here's Luh's conclusion:
To retain Jungbunzlau, as Friedrich's orders for August Wilhelm had commanded, was impossible, as the Austrians could have circumvented the place either through the way from Nimburg to Backofen, or through the way from Nimburg via Eisenbrod to Turnau, and thus could have cut off the Prussians's way of' retreat into the Lausitz. August Wilhelm's decision to retreat was therefore correct. What he can be accused of at most, with hindsight, that is, is that he didn't march more quickly with his troops, that he took a sideway for the retreat and not the better main road via Münchengrätz, Gabel and Zittau. That he didn't do this was due to Friedrich's command to keep up the connection to Silesia - which, as we've seen, was impossible - and at the same time to keep up the connection to the King's army.
In the end, what one can hold against August Wilhelm is only that he didn't go against his Friedrich's orders. Even this with a caveat, though the accusation has been made throughout historiography. For if the Prince of Prussia had ignored the King's orders and had - in his correct estimation of the situation - retreated as quickly as possible to Zittau and from there into the Lausitz, the King's army would have been completely surrounded by the Austrians, since the King wanted to remain in Bohemia. Heinrich and the Generals had recognized this danger early on and had therefore worked out a plan of retreat for the army after the defeat at Kolin. They wanted the troops to march to Saxony and into the Lausitz. This anticipated which - after some human and material losses - became reality at the end of July and in early August 1757. That the King took his brother's honour and army is probably mainly due to his anger at himself. This public slap in the face would not have been necessary, for except for a part of the baggage train, some canons and the magazine in Zittau, August Wilhelm had not lost more than the usual deserters, not the entire army as the King himself had done in 1744.
Now, re: the Kalckreuth memoirs from the Berlin Stabi, I've been reading bits and pieces, since a lot are battle descriptions. But there's one fascinating bit about Glasow I have to share. (Cahn, Glasow: the other handsome husar, Fredersdorf's successor as Fritz' valet. Went with Fritz on the trip to the Netherlands. Around the Easter holidays of 1757, Lehndorff notes in his diary the sensational gossip that Glasow has been arrested for attempting to poison the King in the Countess Brühl's employ (she's the wife of the Saxon PM). Glasow dies while under arrest in Spandau. Now, Kalckreuth isn't the most reliable himself (he's vain and of the "all Heinrich's great deeds? that was really me!" persuasion, plus after being dumped for Kaphengst, he has a beef there), and there's the skeevy part he played in Mina's fate to consider. But as to whether or not Glasow is guilty is irrelevant to Kalckreuth's own reputation, and therefore, he might be telling the truth when he writes thusly:
In Dresden, the unfortuante event with Glasow happened, which the public has distorted so much. This is the truth: This Glasow had been the King's husar of the chamber, i.e. a valet dressed up as a hussar, and very much in favour. Antinous could not have been more beautiful. He had started out as a tambour in the Regiment Schwerin. During the earlier winter quarter, the Countess Brühl had asked him twice to take a cup of chocolate with her, in order to sound him out whether there wasn't a means to soothe the King's anger against Saxony, and he'd accepted the invitation. It was quite ridiculous that the Countess Brühl, a universally respected lady, wanted to discuss such matters with a fop. Glasow had been wrong to keep this tete-a-tete from the King, admittedly.
Later, in the spring, the Countess got exiled to Warsaw. Back then, Glasow had a servant, a disgusting creature, and at the same time the King had a page named Wulnitz, who wasn't able to love Glasow. The page became an officer in the regiment Garde du Corps - footnote: this was Kalckreuth's own original regiment before becoming Heinrich's AD - and took into his service the same villain whom Glasow had employed as a servant the previous winter. This same miserable creature was sent into town and encountered Glasow, who probably was harsh to him due to his bad conduct earlier. At once, he complained to his new master and added that he could ruin Glasow if he were to denounce Glasow's rendezvous to the King. It is said his new master encouraged him to do so. At once, Glasow was arrested and sent to Spandau, where he was locked up with the common criminals. With his weakened body, he soon died. My worthy commander - i.e. Heinrich - and myself were indignant, because Glasow had been a good egg, and hadn't harmed anyone. The public, which is prone to only believe the most stupid versions, deduced from this that the Countess Brühl had invited Glasow to seduce him into poisoning the chocolate he was serving to the King every morning.
Re: Memoirs, Defenses and Glasow, Oh My!
Date: 2020-05-04 07:23 am (UTC)About Kalckreuth, I'm slightly confused. Ziebura has "Kalckreuth, Graf Friedrich Adolf von, Erinnerungen des Generalfeldmarschalls Grafen v. Kalckreuth. 1-4. Separatabdrucke um 1870 aus Minerva. "Paroles" du Feldmaréchal Kalckreuth. Paris 1841."
In contrast, Duffy has "Kalkreuth, F.A. (1839–40), 'Kalkreuth zu seinen Leben und zu seiner Zeit…Erinnerungen des General-Feldmarschalls Grafen von Kalkreuth', Minerva, (1839) IV, (1840) II–IV, Dresden."
I found Duffy's in the 1839-1840 volumes of Minerva in Hathitrust, except for the (1840) III, which was in the Munich Stabi, along with all the other 1840 volumes. I assumed the (1839) IV was there as well. The table of contents listed years like 1757, 1758, 1759, and battles like Zorndorf and Hochkirch, under the Kalkreuth entries, so I concluded it was our guy. I admittedly did not find the 1870 work Ziebura referred to, but since both Ziebura and Duffy both referred to a 4-part work, I guessed that in 1870 someone made a single-volume reprint of the 1839-1840 Minerva installments, and we were all referring to the same thing.
I did not look for the 1841 "Paroles", because French.
I'll work on getting the 1839-1840 Erinnerungen into the library, so you can tell me if it's the same thing you're looking at. Unless you can already tell me that it's not.
I don't *think* I found any living movie directors. ;)
Lehndorff: I did actually remember to check volume 2! :D What I didn't do was read each entry in both volumes thoroughly, because German and blackletter font. I saw January 5 (volume 2) and January 11 (volume 1), and what looked like a hint that Heinrich still wasn't home in the latter part of December, but nothing confirming their presence in super late December. (Again, very superficial skimming.) Anyway, I was hoping they came home for Christmas, but if Ziebura is right about 10 days, and I'm not finding evidence for Christmas in Lehndorff, I guess not. However, before I write any fic, which will presumably be after my German is a bit better, I will actually look at the relevant entries more closely. And then decide what to do in fiction.
Glasow: wow! I don't know what to believe, but I can see where if different-bodies-one-soul sister gets angry letters for lunch with MT during wartime, mere valet might get locked up for Saxon chocolate during wartime! Fritz is going to be hypervigilant around any Saxon sympathies in 1757, that's for sure.
Re: Memoirs, Defenses and Glasow, Oh My!
Date: 2020-05-04 09:45 am (UTC)Re: Memoirs, Defenses and Glasow, Oh My!
Date: 2020-05-04 12:50 pm (UTC)Agreed. Lucchesini + Glasow are the most likely candidates for their respective roles in this.
Either way, Fredersdorf, if you just hadn't gotten sick and died, none of this would have happened!
What I believe to be the Kalckreuth memoirs are in the library. The file is a bit weird, since it's cobbled together from 4 Minerva volumes, 3 from Hathi and 1 from Stabi. I would have preferred all Hathi, because of the white background, but it was missing a volume, so I had to resort to Stabi.
The reason I prefer the white background, btw, is that my computer does not handle the colored background well at *all*, and takes several seconds to load each page, making it impossible to browse. I have figured out how to remove the white background, thus returning processing speed to normal, but only at the cost of file size: 30 MB files become 4 GB files, which is not sustainable. Haven't solved that yet.
So I apologize for the weirdness of this file. At least it's a pdf? There may also be extraneous material, but if I've inadvertently left anything out, let me know. If it's actually a living movie director or a grandson or something, you have my permission to make fun of me. ;)
If I've yet again put it in the wrong folder, ditto.
Re: Memoirs, Defenses and Glasow, Oh My!
Date: 2020-05-05 03:53 am (UTC)FRITZ! >:(
Glasow, wow! (And as always thank you for reminding me, I had of course forgotten.) That actually makes a lot of sense relative to the story that he actually tried to poison Fritz.
Re: Heinrich readthrough!
Date: 2020-05-05 03:49 am (UTC)Ahahahaha I read that but totally missed the implication! Hee, glad we are doing this as a joint effort.
I know this is supposed to be the sibling thread, but some of us have boyfriend fic to write, or at least dream of writing. :P
Lol! Nah, this isn't the sibling thread, this is the thread where we talk about the book. Talking about applications of the book to boyfriend fic totally counts!
Re: Heinrich readthrough!
Date: 2020-05-05 05:53 am (UTC)Well, it definitely helps that I have to stop and think about what each word means as I encounter it. "Flügel, Flügel...I know this one...right, that's the word for 'wing' that I've encountered a few times before in military and architectural contexts. Oh, haha, he's being funny!"
In general, I'm glad the salon is a joint effort, not least for when I confuse the Marwitzes and omit multiple Stuarts, or
I still think the time
Me: I always cast Fritz as Jonathan in my fic, because then you get all the FW-Saul parallels.
Me: I guess this Saul sent for Goliath instead of David!
One of our finest moments, imo. :D
Talking about applications of the book to boyfriend fic totally counts!
You're so nice. <3
I did figure out a way to preserve most of my plot, btw, while adhering to the chronology. We lose the final Fritz/Peter interaction (*sob*), but in the process of trying to rework the scene, I managed to remember some historical details that make it even more canonically plausible, so there's that. And I might still fudge the chronology. It's only a few days, and I don't think we even have certainty about how many!