cahn | Frederick the Great, discussion post 14

cahn

Check out the opera clips at Rheinsberg!

(both the real-life place, which

selenak found out hosts a festival for young opera singers! and the community

rheinsberg)

Also! our fandom has been producing lovely fic at a rapid clip (okay, well,

selenak has):

Sibling dysfunction: Promises to Keep and My Brother Narcissus

Sibling dysfunction PLUS sibling M/M love triangle: The moon flies face to face with me

VOLTAIRE! Between the hour and the age

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

selenak

*nod* "Not once but a thousand times" is starting to sound reasonable. God, poor Fritz. He did try.

He did! Mind you, it's still true what you observed a few discussions ago: he does offer his life but NOT resigning his place in the succession, not until the day of Katte's actual death. Which may or may not be because he knew FW would accept, in fact, did want in the summer and early autumn, the succession resignation, but would not go as far as kill his own son; i.e. he was trying the kind of bluff young Elizabeht Tudor at age 15 pulled off successfully when she and her servants were arrested in the Thomas Seymour affair. (She argued then her governess and her steward - both in the Tower at that point, whereas Elizabeth was "just" under house arrest - had to be released as well, because if she was innocent, they were innocent, and vice versa; they either had to all die or all be returned to freedom. Sadly, Edward Seymour the Protector was a less cruel man than FW.)

Aahhh. So this is where Zimmermann's "Wilhelmine gave him her jewelry for the escape" story came from. Good to know.

Of course Fritz insists she had no idea what he used the jewelry for, since he's being interrogated and she's under FW's thumb. I'm in two minds about this; I mean, I'm pretty sure she knew he would pawn it, given him being notoriously short of cash and desiring same for books and some niceties. Did she guess he wouldn't use it for books but for the escape fund? No idea, it most likely was a "I don't want to know" kind of thing, plus she did hope he would stay.

Remember: Katte brought the supposed plot up himself, in his interrogation. This means he 1) believed it (which shows how well he knew the scheming duo, but okay), 2) thought it was bad enough to justify running away, even in the eyes of FW. Fritz is also testifying, apparently independently of Katte, that Katte tried to prevent him from leaving. So the supposed plot might have been what changed Katte's mind. (Which, incidentally, tells you something about Katte and his feelings about Catholicism.)

Indeed it does. If to you converting to Catholicism (even to become Emperor) = Fate worse than steady paternal abuse is, then you're just this side of Oliver Cromwell in your feelings re: the Church of Rome.

(Meanwhile, Voltaire: We may be terrible, but the Calvinists are worse. They don't like theatre!)

(Hey, Voltaire was living near Geneva when he wrote that, where the city council had just forbidden Genevans to play theatre, again. Of course Voltaire and friends got around this by insisting that private performances were different, and anyway everyone participating was a French citizen.)

This is why, in regard to our pop playlist, I really want Peter to have been the ONE person who just said, "Yes, let's go."

And I think you're on good canonical ground here. I haven't come across a single mention that Peter might have tried to talk Fritz out of the idea anywhere, either.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Of course Fritz insists she had no idea what he used the jewelry for, since he's being interrogated and she's under FW's thumb. I'm in two minds about this; I mean, I'm pretty sure she knew he would pawn it, given him being notoriously short of cash and desiring same for books and some niceties.

Agreed.

Did she guess he wouldn't use it for books but for the escape fund? No idea, it most likely was a "I don't want to know" kind of thing, plus she did hope he would stay.

That does make sense.

Indeed it does. If to you converting to Catholicism (even to become Emperor) = Fate worse than steady paternal abuse is, then you're just this side of Oliver Cromwell in your feelings re: the Church of Rome.

Agreed. It's also possible that it wasn't what tipped the balance for Katte, but that he knew FW's feelings about the Church of Rome, and thought he could try to use this excuse to try to get FW to forgive the escape attempt.

We don't *know* for sure that it was Fritz who lied before the escape and Katte who faithfully reported what he was told during interrogation, do we? It seems riskier to start throwing Seckendorff and Grumbkow to the wolves during the interrogation if you're lying through your teeth *and* hoping your boyfriend catches on and plays along (something he failed utterly to do), but maybe Katte was trying to get a new scapegoat and break up the terrible trio in hopes of Fritz catching a break from FW. Maybe especially because he's refusing to implicate literally anyone else and is basically protecting them with his life, and yet he's quite happy to implicate S & G in a secret plot that will piss off FW just as much...maybe Katte is our lying liar who lies?

Of course Voltaire and friends got around this by insisting that private performances were different, and anyway everyone participating was a French citizen.

Hahaha, go Voltaire and friends.

And I think you're on good canonical ground here. I haven't come across a single mention that Peter might have tried to talk Fritz out of the idea anywhere, either.

Agreed, with the major caveat that we have so much less data about Peter. What I think we can say is that by the end of 1729, he was sold on escaping. Both the November 1729 plan and his willingness to disappear in August 1730. On the one hand, the latter was much, much less risky for him, there in Wesel, but it was still risky, and on the other hand, he hadn't seen Fritz in seven months. And still Peter was willing to risk his life to leave his country and family and everything just to join Fritz in exile.

So whatever qualms he may have had, had clearly been resolved by then. And he may never have had any.

From:

selenak

Maybe especially because he's refusing to implicate literally anyone else and is basically protecting them with his life, and yet he's quite happy to implicate S & G in a secret plot that will piss off FW just as much...maybe Katte is our lying liar who lies?

Possible, but if so, really bad tactical decision given that this kind of thing is how Charles Hotham Sr. lost any credit with FW, the English Marriage Project ended for good and Hotham had to be replaced as envoy by Guy Dickens.

Reminder: as I recall, the double marriage negotiations went as far as they were ever going to, and FW was in a rare amenable mood, and then Hotham Sr. overdid the cooking by telling FW: "Oh, btw, your bff Grumbkow who's been trying his best to sabotage this marriage project so far? Totally corrupt, in the pay of my arch enemy Seckendorff, and also, I wouldn't be surprised if he had had a poison plot going as the Queen claims a while ago!
FW: GRRRARGH!

As this had been rather recently, Katte deciding that the way to give FW alternate targets for his rage and maybe provide Fritz with a good excuse for the attempted escape was something he knew to be a lie about Gumbkow & Seckendorff would have been pretty dumb. Yes, extreme stress situation and all, but given the track record of both parties, if I had to decide whether Katte or Fritz is lying here, I'm going with Fritz.

Incidentally, my headcanon is that this is what made Grumbkow decide that keeping the Crown Prince alive and as Crown Prince - as opposed to use the opportunity, fan FW's anger and push him into altering the succession, complete with Seckendorff trying to persuade the Emperor to go along with this, since it would have needed HRE approval - might just be worth it, because clearly anyone who has no scruples telling their boyfriend such a canard in order to motivate him to come along on a dangerous mission has potential as ruler Grumbkow can do business with!

So whatever qualms he may have had, had clearly been resolved by then. And he may never have had any.

<3 Lehndorff: *waves banner of "Peter Keith is the hero" fan club*