Frederick the Great, discussion post 14
Apr. 7th, 2020 09:29 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cahnCheck out the opera clips at Rheinsberg!
(both the real-life place, whichselenak found out hosts a festival for young opera singers! and the community ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
rheinsberg)
Also! our fandom has been producing lovely fic at a rapid clip (okay, well,selenak has):
Sibling dysfunction: Promises to Keep and My Brother Narcissus
Sibling dysfunction PLUS sibling M/M love triangle: The moon flies face to face with me
VOLTAIRE! Between the hour and the age
(both the real-life place, which
selenak found out hosts a festival for young opera singers! and the community rheinsberg)Also! our fandom has been producing lovely fic at a rapid clip (okay, well,
selenak has):Sibling dysfunction: Promises to Keep and My Brother Narcissus
Sibling dysfunction PLUS sibling M/M love triangle: The moon flies face to face with me
VOLTAIRE! Between the hour and the age
Re: Katte!
Date: 2020-04-21 05:42 pm (UTC)Hinrichs the editor: So we're clear that the Great Prince Elector and F1 didn't get along, nor did FW and Fritz, nor did Fritz and FW2, nor did FW2 and FW3, nor did FW3 and FW4. Key fact here is that FW was the only son who actually was perfectly obedient to his dad and monarch in several Hohenzollern generations, despite more unlike than his precedessor than any of the other combinations. Which is why he was stunned and absolutely couldn't stand it when his son turned out to be disobedient.
(Sidenote from me: he doesn't say it here, but this being an obedient son to F1 thing even included F1's funeral. Which FW did in exactly the opulent style F1 would have wanted while already starting his austerity programm everywhere else, including and especially his own household. So yes: tiny and not so tiny terror FW was a loyal and obedient crown prince and successor.)
FW had everything Fritz would have loved to have - an intellectual mother who got him the best teachers available (he loathed them and vice versa), all the splendour of a baroque court, all the access to art possible. He only saw the waste. Hinrich's explanation for FW the obedient son, btw, is that FW did not just fear a vengeful Calvinist God but also had an almost mystical respect for "the King in Prussia", the institution, even before he himself filled it.
Otoh Hinrich says that FW said about his intellectual mother (whom Hinrich calls the first female intellectual of Germany) that she'd been a smart woman but a bad Christian, and that he showed her, as opposed to his father, "undisguised dislike and contempt".
12 years old Fritz finds among the many theological writings he's overwhelmed with one from Luther - "Von weltlicher Obrigkeit" - "Of the secular authoriy" - which gets him this priceless quote which because it has a key pun you can't repeat in English I have to give you in German first. Also, it's only possible in Luther's Renaissance German, modern German has the key word her slightly different.
Daher mußte David derzeiten nicht den Tempel bauen , darum , daß er viel Bluts vergofien und das
Schwert geführt hatte. Niicht, daß er hätte Unrecht daran getan , sondern daß er nicht konnte Chrifti figur sein , der ohne Schwert ein friedsam Reich haben sollte, sondern es mußte Salomo tun , das heißt auf deutſch "friedrich", oder friedsam, ein friedsam Reich hatte, damit das rechte friedsame Reich Chrifti, des rechten Friedrich und Salomo, könnte bedeutet werden.
Got it? That is why David could not build the Temple, for he had shed much blood and used d his sword. Not that he had been wrong to do so, but that is wy he could not be a Christ figure, who should have without a sword a peaceful realm, and that is why Solomon had to do it, whose name means "friedrich" or "peaceful", having a peaceful realm, so that the true peaceful realm of Christ, the true Friedricich and Solomon, could be foreshadowed.
Now, modern German for peaceful is "friedlich", with an l, not "friedrich", but who am I do gainsay father of the early modern German language Martin Luther, whose bible translation into German was incredibly important for the development of said language? Anyway, young Fritz, having to participate in the Tobacco parliament again, comes up with this Luther quote. I leave you imagine Dad's reaction. BTw, this also puts both FW's evoking of the David/Absalom (note: not David/Solomon) and Voltaire's "Solomon of the North" phrase into a new light.
Grumbkow in the late 20s got a secret Imperial protection letter from Seckendorff in case FW dies and he's faced with a vengeful SD and her son.
Hinrich assures his readers that this book isn't meant as some kind of last word on FW and German's most famous father/son tragedy, he wants to write a biography about the man. For him, father and son are the heroes of the conflict while Katte "is just its victim" albeit one who rises to true human greatness in the end through it.
(Note: Our man Fontane, writing three quarters of a century earlier, has no doubt Katte is the hero of the story.)
(Lehndorff: They are both wrong. Peter Keith was the true hero. Colonel Keith, Sir, you don‘t mind me crushing a bit on you in between my immortal, albeit right now a bit resentful love for Heinrich and my current flame Charles Hotham?)
Okay, on to the interrogation protocols.
The first one is dated Wesel, August 12th 1730, 8:30 am in the presence of his majesty the King. In it, Fritz says that he had told only "the then page Keith" about the first time he wanted to flee, but that plan was aborted. The second time, he told Katte, who according to Fritz approved and promised to come along. Fritz swears no one else knew and co-signs the protocol.
Question from me "the page Keith" = Not!Robert or Peter? The "page Keith" later in the protocol is definitely not!Robert as that deals with Fritz' actual escape plan, but I'm a bit stumped by the "ehemaligen Pagen Keith" earlier, which sounds like Peter, which would mean Fritz names him this early.
Oh, forget it, the next protocol has Not!Robert Keith's statement and he's referred to as "der ehemalige Page Keith", so it's definitely Not!Robert both times. Fritz hadnt given Peter away yet.
Second interrogation protocol of Fritz dated Wesel, August 13th. On that occasion, Fritz is asked, among other things, whether anyone has recced Katte to him, and he says no, no one, and again that only Katte and himself were involved. This time, the protocol also mentions "den desertierten Keith", i.e. defnitely Peter; Fritz admits to having corresponded with him and oaccasionally having send him money, though not much since he himself didn't have much.
Third interrogation protocol, dated Wesel, August 15th, starts with FW saying Fritz is a lying liar who lies since they got the news Peter Keith hasn't gone to Straßburg or elsewhere in France but to the Netherlands and from there will probably head to England, which for FW means that Fritz lied in the 12th August interrogation when saying he wanted to go to France. FW (through the interrogator, Derschau, one of Fritz' least favourite people) threatens with torture. Fritz insists he hasn't ordered Peter to go to England and that he himself only wanted to go to France.
Questioned why, he says precisely because he knew FW would react like this, due to the marriage project, and he did not want to cause further trouble. Hence France.
Second interrogation of Not!Robert Keith the page is also on August 15th. Not!Robert is asked whether the Prince hasn't told h ilm that his brother Lieutenant Keith also wanted to desert. Page Keith says no, on the contrary, the Prince told him not to tell his brother anything. Page Keith swears his brother never ever wrote to him about this business, either, and that in the last letter Peter just told him to bring three pair of shoes for him along when coming to Wesel, and that Page Keith could lodge with him.
New factoids about Katte's arrest: the postmaster who kept the letter overnight is called Borchward. He, along with the "auditeur" Rumpf and Lt. Glasenapp are interrogated about Katte's arrest, and Rumpf confirms that Katte didn't seem surprised. FW does not just suspect that Katte was warned, but that he was warned by Wilhelmine specifically. Katte even under direct threat of torture insists he has not been warned by anyone.
Seventh interrogation of Fritz, still in Wesel, on August 19th. By then, they have some of Peter Keith's papers read. Fritz is asked how Peter was to call hilmself post flight - "Graf Sparre" - and how he himself was planning to call himself - Graf d'Alberville.
Did Fritz order Peter to talk to the British or Dutch Ambassadors? No. He's urged again to admit he wanted to go to England. He says, no, to France, but that if Peter had been well received in the Netherlands he might have gone there next, but not to England.
Brief letter from Fritz (in German) to Dad also dated August 19th which swears he has said the truth and there had been no evil intentions as he's been accused of having. Adress is always "mein lieber Papa", which is the one all the Hohenzollern kids used in their surviving letters to FW.
Also dated August 19th - order to Lepel to prepare two rooms in Küstrin for "a great prisoner", not named.
Very detailed orders about the transport to Küstrin (Fritz is only allowed to relieve himself in plain sight, not behind a bush or anything like that, for example). He's to be delivered to Küstrin "alive or dead", and in the case of any attempt to free him they do have order to kill him rather than risk an escape.
We've already talked about only three books (the bible and two more theology books), no instruments etc., also two servants.
Katte's first interrogation protocol is from August 27th. It's consistent with the species facti statement, including Katte exonorating Guy Dickens (FW REALLY wanted to hear it was all an English plot).
There's a note from FW (his own hand, not by secretary) dated August 28th, 9 o'clock, saying "They" - the interrogators - " should get tougher on Katte".
The next document IS the species facti (also dated August 28th.) I'll just say something about the parts that weren't in the transcription Mildred had given more earlier, i.e. the (...)
Katte was warned that if Fritz favor him, FW would dislike him. (Katte, Fritz will dislike anyone favored by his brothers and nephew, too.)
Katte told Fritz (he claims) that the French might accept him but they'd never let him go except through disadvantageous conditions and would totally exploit him.
The backstory Mildred wanted to know about:
Some years ago his highness had adressed him that he of two horses, which had been given to hm from his majesty, kept the best one and sent the worst to his father. A year ago he (Katte) started to have a closer aquaintance with his highness, and it came to be because the prisoner has been often around Prince Heinrich. (Note:this is of course not the four years old kid but one of the Schwedt cousins who as grandkids of the Great Elector were also princes of the blood.) His Royal Highness had not been well intended towards him in the beginning, but the officers in Potsdam, who'd been his, the prisoner's schoolmates, had given his royal highness a different impression of the prisoner. Afterwards his royal highness had approached the prisoner a couple of times in Berlin, both because of his reading, which he described to his highness, and because he wanted to know whether the prisoner had an understanding of music and was a lover of the flute. Further Katte admits that he has been often with the Crown Prince in the afternoon because of the music, and in the most recent time in the evening,too, after retiring from his duties to the King for the night. But in the beginning he only visited the antechambre and exchanged just a few words with the prince en passant. The valet Gummersbach, editor notes, said in his interrogation on September 2nd about Katte's socializing with the prince that "Katte could come and go as he pleased and that no one was allowed to be there when he was with the crown prince".
Katte says Fritz said he had hopes of getting money from Rothenbourg (the French one) and also that Cardinal Fleury (France's PM at the time) would gladly receive him. To which Katte supposedly commented this would be really bad for the entire House of Brandenburg in the future, and Fritz said he was only considering it because FW was treating him so harshly.
Rochow (as in, brother-in-law of Katte, also like Keyserlingk FW-installed Fritz supervisor) in his statement says, among other things: Monsieur Katte, I find our Crown Prince very restless, I warn you as a good friend as I can see you are very familiar with him, that you should not try anything with him which you might later be sorry for, in short, he pleaded with him and asked that he should do likewise with the crown prince.
Fritz in between considered having Katte and "some others" knock Rochow out to escape him, but never got serious about this plan.
Fritz says in the interrogation of September 2nd that he intended to lay low at Rothenbourg's estate. He and Katte both insist in their interrogations that the Queen and Wilhelmine did not know, that Fritz explicitly forbade Katte to tell them. FW was less than convinced, which is why Katte was pressured about Wilhelmine some more.
In Katte's August 30th interogation: "Question: As the Princess herself said to the accused that she wishes the Prince would come back, hadn't the accused revealed to her what had been planned about the flight?
Answer: No, the Crown Prince had always forbade him to tell the Queen and the Princess about this, which is why he'd been very careful not to.
When it is then pointed out to him that the Princess otherwise would have had no reason to speak with him in confidence if she hadn't known that he knew about this affair, he responds:
Answer: He hadn't told her anything but that the Crown Prince sends her his greetings et qu 'it étoit plus malade d'esprit que du corps, whereupon she had asked: whether he would escape or return, the accused should tell her upon his conscience, s'il feroit un tour d 'étourdi ou s'il reviendroit . The prisoner says that the Princess might have made a guess because after his return from Saxony he had to tell her what had happened there, and on that occasion she had asked him how the Prince was standing with the King. The prisoner had answered: badly, and that he was worried that the prince might try a coup de déesspoir, and if the Prince returned, he might talk to her further about this.
Personal note from FW to Grumbkow (in French): "You should interrogate day and night."
Protocol about the arrest of v. Ingersleben and poor Doris Ritter, and Doris' statements.
My God.The poor girl was only 16 (and a quarter). 16, and gets dragged into this and whipped all over Potsdam. Her and her parents things were all searched, but nothing was found there but what she had already said she'd been given by Fritz, which was:
1.) 30 Ducats.
2.) A second hand dressing gown made of "bleumorant Gros du Tour" with silvery threads for which she'd bought some additional material to stitch it on (this used to be one of Fritz', and she'd altered it for herself)
3.) A green "contouche" with stitched in flowers
4.) A pair of bracelets made of mother-of-pearl and gold
5.) 7 inches orange coloured ribbons with silver.
The guys in charge of the interrogation say this was all older stuff and not of good quality, they hadn't found anything else, the parents swear there had been nothing improper about the relationship and ask for the King's mercy for their arrested daughter. Grumbkow asked Katte on August 31st about Doris Ritter, and Katte wrote: je me rappelle , qu'il me parlait dans son dernier voyage ici à Berlin d'une fille qu' il avait à Potsdam , qu ' il aimait beaucoup, la disant fille de chantre, peut être que c'est elle , qui a donné des fréquentes saignées à sa bourse. Je ne l'ai jamais vue et il ne m 'en a parlé qu ' une fois avant son départ comme regrettant son absence .
Hinrichts then quotes FW's orders to have her whipped and put into a workhouse for the rest of her life. This is on page 70, and that's as far as I got. I must interrupt now.
Re: Katte!
Date: 2020-04-22 01:24 am (UTC)Hinrichs the editor: So we're clear that the Great Prince Elector and F1 didn't get along, nor did FW and Fritz, nor did Fritz and FW2, nor did FW2 and FW3, nor did FW3 and FW4. Key fact here is that FW was the only son who actually was perfectly obedient to his dad and monarch
Yup. I also recall Koser saying that Fritz said that F1 (iirc?) had run away from *his* dad, and FW thundering, "That was *completely* different!"
Now, modern German for peaceful is "friedlich", with an l, not "friedrich", but who am I do gainsay father of the early modern German language Martin Luther
Well, here's the thing. "Friedrich" has two components: fried, meaning "peace", and rich, meaning "king" or "ruler." Peaceful king. The two components of "friedlich" are fried, "peace", and -lich, which is cognate with the adjectival and adverbial suffix "-ly" in English. (In Old English, it was -lic(e).)
So "Friedrich" is not an exact counterpart of "Solomon", which has only the "peace" element*, but the rich is the same root, etymologically, as "Reich", meaning "kingdom". In Middle High German, the kingdom word was actually "rīch(e)", so the relationship was even more obvious.
So, while he does gloss "friedrich" as "peaceful" (and yes, who am I to argue how they used this word in his time?), the "friedsam Reich...friedsam Reich" phrase that Luther keeps using strikes me as the real wordplay on "Friedrich" here. Or at least the etymologically sound wordplay.
* As far as I and my two months of Biblical Hebrew plus some googling can tell.
(Note: Our man Fontane, writing three quarters of a century earlier, has no doubt Katte is the hero of the story.)
(Lehndorff: They are both wrong. Peter Keith was the true hero. Colonel Keith, Sir, you don‘t mind me crushing a bit on you in between my immortal, albeit right now a bit resentful love for Heinrich and my current flame Charles Hotham?)
Colonel Peter Keith: Not at all, young man. It's nice to feel appreciated for once. Those Kattes, amirite?
Question from me "the page Keith" = Not!Robert or Peter? The "page Keith" later in the protocol is definitely not!Robert as that deals with Fritz' actual escape plan, but I'm a bit stumped by the "ehemaligen Pagen Keith" earlier, which sounds like Peter, which would mean Fritz names him this early.
Well, this is complicated. I have *always* seen that Peter Keith and probably not Katte was the confidant of the abortive November 1729 attempt. Kloosterhuis writes, "sein ehemaliger Page Peter von Keith, geboren 1711 im hinterpommerschen Poberow. Dabei war dieser wie (und vielleicht vor) Hans Hermann von Katte als eigentlicher Komplize der 1729 / 1730 konkreter werdenden Fluchtpläne Friedrichs zu bezeichnen."
Kloosterhuis also says we don't know the dates at which not!Robert Keith became page. He says *if* a reference to a "Keut" serving in the army in November 1728 was Peter, then the request for a page Keith by FW in June 1729 must be not!Robert. But Peter was the fourth child of his parents, so the former could be an older brother? Or seriously, one of a million other Keiths?
But then he writes, "Keith junior diente im Sommer 1730 auf der Reise nach Süddeutschland ebenfalls als Königspage und beschaffte auf Befehl des Kronprinzen in Steinsfurt die Fluchtpferde. Von Keith senior verlautete, daß er bereits im November 1729 in konkrete Fluchtpläne des Kronprinzen als Mitwisser und Helfer einbezogen war."
Now, not only is he saying that Peter ("Keith senior") was involved in the November 1729 attempt, he seems to be saying that we have this from Peter's mouth ("verlautete"). Am I right? Now, I wondered how on earth we have anything from Peter on this subject, but the footnote to this sentence reads, "Zur hauptsächlich mit Keith beredeten Flucht besorgte Leutnant von Spaen eine Reisekutsche aus Leipzig, ohne über deren Zweck genau Bescheid zu wissen; vgl. R. Koser, Kronprinz (Anm. 3), 36." It's not clear to me whether Keith senior's "verlautete" was the discussion with Spaen, who doesn't seem to have known what was going on, except in hindsight. Can you help with possible interpretations of the German here?
Kloosterhuis also says that "Noch in der niederrheinischen Garnison war Keith so konkret in das Fluchtvorhaben des Kronprinzen einbezogen, daß er sich auf dessen erste Nachricht vom Mißerfolg aus dem Staub in die Niederlandemachte," namely that Peter fled once he heard the escape attempt had failed. Now, this is a very common take on things, but it's been refuted by people like Koser based on the chronology. Even using the documentary evidence presented in Kloosterhuis, it cannot be right: the escape attempt failed on the morning of the 5th, down in Steinsfurt, and not!Robert confessed on the 6th, and Peter deserted on the 6th up in Wesel (see the map below). His quarters were being searched by his superiors on the 7th. There is no *way* there was time for him to get word of a failed attempt, especially since Fritz is only supposed to have sent the note on the 10th. I'm with Koser: Keith left on his own, as part of the original plan. Which makes Kloosterhuis look less reliable, plus he admits he's guessing on Keith identities here.
I'm looking at document #2, "Aus anderen Verhören", "Der ehemalige page v . Keith", on pages 27-28, and it opens "Der Kronprinzliche Kammerdiener Carl Gummersbach sagte in seinem Verhör am 2. September 1730 aus,"
You're the German speaker: are we sure this is an interrogation OF der ehemalige page v. Keith, and not an interrogation ABOUT der ehemalige page v. Keith? Because one, the date is much later (September), two, the document titles seem to be Hinrichs' invention, or at least I'm not sure they're not, three, it opens "Kammerdiener Gummersbach sagte," and four, it talks about Keith in the third person. Oh, and five, the next part of the document, "Der Leutnant von Spaen," is a statement BY Katte ABOUT Spaen's involvement in that 1729 escape plan.
And then the actual interrogation of not!Robert, starting on page 31, refers to not!Robert simply as "the page."
So I think what we have here is a summary and excerpt from a later interrogation of Gummersbach about Peter and his involvement in the 1729 escape plan.
Which means, yes, Fritz is naming Peter as early as August 12.
That's not a problem, btw, not only because I've always heard that Fritz named Keith and Katte very early on, but because Peter's August 6 desertion has already been discovered by FW and is the very reason an interrogation is taking place. Peter's desertion was the catalyst for this escape turning in FW's mind from his wretched son's usual misbehavior into a huge international plot to overthrow FW.
See, they go on this trip to visit Anspach, where Fritz's sister Friederike Luise is Margravine, and then they start working their way north near the Rhine toward Prussian territory up by the Netherlands, such as Cleves, where Wesel is. Fritz is still very far south, in Steinsfurt, when he attempts to escape on the 5th. Supposedly to Strasbourg, which makes sense at least as a first stop, since it's the first place over the border with France and is pretty near some of Rottembourg's estates. From there he could more safely move to England to join Peter.
Anyway, it's not until the 12th, when the royal party is moving north and approaching Wesel, that FW finds out that Peter deserted on the 6th in Wesel. That's when he flips out, sends Fritz ahead to Wesel, and has him interrogated that same day. That's when the shit really hits the fan, in other words.
So the geography is important here...okay, a picture is worth a thousand words. Behold:
I wish it were easier to make that a map with 1730 borders, because then
You *can* see on this map where The Hague is, where Lord Chesterfield is stationed as British envoy to the Netherlands and helps Peter escape to London on the 18th.
"den desertierten Keith", i.e. defnitely Peter; Fritz admits to having corresponded with him and oaccasionally having send him money
Fritz sending someone else money!!
New factoids about Katte's arrest: the postmaster who kept the letter overnight is called Borchward.
Heee. I love how we're gradually building a picture of minor characters.
Katte even under direct threat of torture insists he has not been warned by anyone.
Katte: not giving anyone away. <3
I'll just say something about the parts that weren't in the transcription Mildred had given more earlier, i.e. the (...)
Oh, yay, we finally got them!
Katte was warned that if Fritz favor him, FW would dislike him.
Katte's uncle on the Wartensleben side manages to be the one (future) exception.
Katte told Fritz (he claims) that the French might accept him but they'd never let him go except through disadvantageous conditions and would totally exploit him.
Ooh, this is interesting, because Fritz's fears of being exploited by the French are a major plot driver in my fix-it fic WIP.
The backstory Mildred wanted to know about:
Yay! We have a source! *claps hands*
Some years ago his highness had adressed him that he of two horses, which had been given to hm from his majesty, kept the best one and sent the worst to his father.
Hahaha. I recall Katte's superior in the Gens d'armes saying that Katte was without fail either riding his horse or playing the flute, so this checks out.
Katte: Dad's a senior officer. He can buy his own horse!
The valet Gummersbach, editor notes, said in his interrogation on September 2nd about Katte's socializing with the prince that "Katte could come and go as he pleased and that no one was allowed to be there when he was with the crown prince".
And we have a source for this! *more glee*
And yeah, maybe they're just talking about how much they hate FW and planning to run away, but I like to think that they are totally also getting it on. :P
Oh, there's one other so-far-unsourced claim about Katte and Fritz's relationship that I've seen: that a friend of Katte's said that it "physically pained" Katte to be apart from Fritz. If that's in here, or, alternatively, if you remember it from Kloosterhuis, please do let me know!
Oh, and Katte's supposed to have given away the existence of the secret library in one of his interrogations (which means that part of Der Thronfolger is historical). Please confirm when you get there?
Btw, Gummersbach is the guy who stopped the escape attempt at Steinsfurt, or at least the first guy who realized something was afoot and started alerting Rochow and others.
Fritz in between considered having Katte and "some others" knock Rochow out to escape him, but never got serious about this plan.My God.The poor girl was only 16 (and a quarter). 16, and gets dragged into this and whipped all over Potsdam.
But the *important* thing is that she wasn't especially attractive in her middle age, right?
Sigh. Poor girl. I'm glad she got a happier ending after all that suffering.
ETA: Looking at MacDonogh, citing Koser, I notice that Keyserlingk had to sleep in Fritz's bedroom starting January 21, 1730. Kloosterhuis says FW wrote the order for Peter to be shipped off to Wesel on January 21, 1730.
Wow. Somebody got caught fooling around with the page!
Fritz got laid the night of the 20thI have seen somewhere online a claim that Fritz was sent to Wusterhausen (I think?) after this episode to think about his sins (FW quote), but I can't find it now, and I don't think I've seen it from a reliable source. It would be interesting to find.
Aww, man, that was 3 days before Fritz's birthday, too. :(
Son of ETA: Koser seems to think FW's worried about Fritz escaping. Which I'm sure he's *also* worried about. :P
Omg, the preceding paragraphs are 1) FW saying that if *his* father had treated him the way he treated FW, he would have shot himself, but Fritz endures everything (
Also, I'm kind of excited that--granted, I know this material quite well, so there's a certain amount of cheating going on--but I totes managed to read these few paragraphs without *any* help from Google translate. Even in my unfavorite font. :D
Little by little, here I come, German!
Re: Katte!
Date: 2020-04-22 05:41 am (UTC)My vague memories of my dutiful semester of Mittelhochdeutsch say you're utterly right there. But can you imagine FW's reaction to young Fritz saying he's found this really cool Luther quote and then quoting it to the Tabakkollegium, complete with "David wasn't worthy"?
(Also, however much or little German Voltaire picked up during his three years in Prussia, I'm pretty sure that when he came up with the "Solomon of the North" moniker for Fritz years and years earlier he spoke exactly zero, never mind medieval German, so he probably can't have known he was punning in a Lutherian manner.)
he seems to be saying that we have this from Peter's mouth ("verlautete"). Am I right?
No. "Verlautete", which btw is old fashioned German, means "it is said", so "Of Keith Sr, it is said". Not that Peter himself said it.
But the *important* thing is that she wasn't especially attractive in her middle age, right?
Sigh. Poor girl. I'm glad she got a happier ending after all that suffering.
Yep. And you know, for all the unfair accusations that Fritz didn't do anything for the Kattes - which he so did , and the debate as to whether or not he was unfair to Peter - I think Doris Ritter would have had far more room to complain. Because the only (remote) contact she ever had with Fritz post 1730 was that when her husband wanted the license to run a rent-a-carriage enterprise in Berlin, he got it following her petition. And that's it. Whippings,being called a whore in public, three years of harsh labor before FW communicated her sentence, and she gets nothing. She can't even tell herself that she was in any way important to Fritz afterwards - whereas Katte and Peter (in differing degrees) certainly were - that it might have been worth it because there had been love.
I notice that Keyserlingk had to sleep in Fritz's bedroom starting January 21, 1730. Kloosterhuis says FW wrote the order for Peter to be shipped off to Wesel on January 21, 1730.
Wow. Somebody got caught fooling around with the page!
Definitely looks like it! And wasn't Katte away in London one last time in the winter of 29/30? The overlaping of Katte and Peter in Fritz' life is definitely something no fictional depiction other than Roes took into account. Monogamous, they were not, it seems. (Even leaving aside whatever Fritz thought he was doing with Doris Ritter and whether there was "some girl" Katte had in Berlin if "some girl" wasn't code for "must make sure Wilhelmine doesn't get implicated in the escape attempt2.
Re: Katte!
Date: 2020-04-22 07:57 pm (UTC)Yeah, that must have gone down well!
No. "Verlautete", which btw is old fashioned German, means "it is said", so "Of Keith Sr, it is said". Not that Peter himself said it.
Aha. Okay, that makes infinite amounts of more sense. Man, I need to fix my sleep rhythms so I can learn German faster! All right, so Peter is the 1729 escape helper and former page in these documents, and not!Robert (I do wonder where the name Robert comes from) the current page.
I think Doris Ritter would have had far more room to complain.
Agreed.
She can't even tell herself that she was in any way important to Fritz afterwards - whereas Katte and Peter (in differing degrees) certainly were - that it might have been worth it because there had been love.
Yeah, I've seen one person write, poignantly, that no matter how tragic Katte's fate was, at least he had the consolation of knowing that he loved and that his love was reciprocated. Doris had...nothing.
Definitely looks like it! And wasn't Katte away in London one last time in the winter of 29/30?
No, that was the previous winter, 28/29. That was before he and Fritz had gotten to know each other. Then he came back in spring 1729, entered Fritz's life shortly thereafter, and they had one year together before the escape attempt.
The overlaping of Katte and Peter in Fritz' life is definitely something no fictional depiction other than Roes took into account.
That's because of Wilhelmine! She's very clear about Katte "succeeding" Keith after Keith was sent to Wesel. I myself long thought that Peter was sent to Wesel much earlier, like late 1728 or at best mid 1729, and wrote fic accordingly. I was surprised to see them overlapping in Roes and went with "artistic license" at first. Kloosterhuis is the first source I've seen state that Peter was still in Fritz's life as late as January 1730. And we know that Roes is basically writing a novelized take on Kloosterhuis's monograph. With some use of artistic license, granted, but far less than I'd thought.
I myself have had to rethink my fictional take on Keith and Katte, ever since you read us Kloosterhuis. :)
Monogamous, they were not, it seems.
Either that, or the Fritz/Katte relationship didn't turn romantic/sexual until after Peter left. Fritz and Katte only started to make friends in mid 1729 (we don't know exactly when). Katte seems not to have been included in the November 1729 escape plan. Which makes sense, since they'd only really known each other for a handful of months at that point. Peter leaves in January 1730. That leaves Fritz and Katte about six months to have an affair after Peter's gone.
Now, I do think they weren't exclusive. But the chronology does work if you want to make it exclusive. And it's possible to reconcile that with Wilhelmine's memories, if you go with Peter as still the primary significant other in Fritz's life until early 1730, with Katte and Fritz exchanging some words en passant in 1729 about music and literature, and with Katte and Keith overlapping as Fritzian friends but not lovers. Fritz may specifically have turned to his not-yet-close-friend Katte as a new confidant as a result of Peter being sent away.
Now, possibly Fritz and Katte were friends with benefits from early on, in 1729, and only after a few months of that did Katte become someone Fritz entrusted with his sensitive treasonous plans, but we just don't know.
(I personally am writing them poly in the fix-it fic, wherein Keith and Katte eventually hook up while Fritz is lying low and they're looking for him, and then when they all live happily ever after together, they carry on polyamorously. From the guy who told Fredersdorf to take a page or hunter with him, that seems reasonable.)
Plus, re Doris and the mysterious "some girl," as you've pointed out, Lehndorff demonstrates just how much bi men could compartmentalize their romantic lives by gender.
Which reminds me of this Cracked article I ran across once, by someone who worked at a Vegas wedding chapel:
It turns out that even same-sex couples can make abrupt, poorly thought-out decisions. We had to say no to one gay couple because one of them was already married to a woman. He told the pastor, "Gay marriage is different, though. It's not polygamy. I can be married to a man and a woman. It's different. It's two different kinds of marriage." Did the wife know about it? Or did he intend to bring his new husband home and try to sell her on the idea?
And there's a stock facepalming picture captioned, "Try to think of this less as a betrayal of trust and more as having a third person to help with the housework," which made me laugh. Though I like to think the wife was fine with it!
Re: (not much) Katte! (but much Lehndorff)
Date: 2020-04-24 04:55 am (UTC)Absolutely - as long as there's no question that they're both devoted more to Fritz than to each other. I mean, an escaped at 18 Fritz with friends and lovers is clearly a more emotionally healthy Fritz than the rl version, but there were those 18 years with Hohenzollern dysfunction and abuse first. And that guy who is absolutely unwilling to invite Émilie as well as Voltaire and is going to resent that while Voltaire still had a choice, he prioritized Émilie years and YEARS after her death is still in him, surely. So my speculation would be that he'd be cool with a poly situation - as long as he's the centre of it.
Plus, re Doris and the mysterious "some girl," as you've pointed out, Lehndorff demonstrates just how much bi men could compartmentalize their romantic lives by gender.
This reminds me of how I went from seeing Lehndorff as gay to seeing him as bi once I'd read the second volume, because in the first one, Schmidt-Lötzen cut out most of the stuff about both wives & Cousin du Rosey Katte and the occasional het adventure. (As well as even more unambiguous stuff about Heinrich. I mean, the first volume has things "what a man to be worshipped" and the notorious "beautiful like an angel" in his riding pants, but the second one has "I'm afraid I'll never find the courage to tell him how much I love him" and "all reason leaves me when I'm near him" (we've noticed) from the same era.) If you've read solely the first (and the only reprinted) volume, then the wives really look like not signifying much in Lehndorff's life, and all the times he shows interest in women he doesn't have to also got censored. BTw, I suspect the reason for the last one is that Schmidt-Lötzen got access to the Lehndorff diaries from the same Countess Lehndorff who made an early and ultimately abandoned attempt to change all the il and lui into elle. Not that Lehndorff comes across as Don Juan in the originally censored parts. There's this one time after Hotham has left and he's depressed as hell when a friend advises him to try a prostitute, Lehndorff does so and concludes it's just not worth it because it's v.v. awkward afterwards (is it more gentlemanly to wait or to send her away immediately?), not to mention dangerous (he goes and visits the famous Charité, the Berlin hospital FW founded (which is still going strong), to remind himself that STDS and especially syphilis are a thing and that's why prostitutes = bad idea). And he's also into the mistress of the Austrian/Imperial envoy Puebla, the Countess Bredow, because she's hot, witty and loyal to Puebla even after he's goine and Austrians are less popular than ever since the war has now started. (She still has a painting of Puebla hanging in her salon.) Oh, and at one point none other than the Countess Wreech (she who was the last female recipient of Fritz' love poetry that he didn't play Cyrano for someone else with) makes a pass at him ("played the wife of Potiphar for me"), but, says Lehndorff, he took the role of Joseph and fled because "Grandmothers are not tempting".
Now, at first glance the fact this got censored but the entire Hotham saga did not in the original volume is odd, because Charles Hotham Jr. is the clear proof that Lehndorff's romantic feelings for men weren't limited to something that Schmidt-Lötzen presumably eventually sold the Countess on could be explained by devotion to royalty. But I think that's just it - see also Schmidt-Lötzens original preface of how the Rokoko age was just different, evryone was emo, and Lehndorff's bursting into tears at the prospect of not seeing Heinrich for a few days because Heinrich has to attend Fritz in Potsdam in early 1753 is utterly normal in that context. Whereas "Prostitutes: better not", "man, I want to score with the Countess Bredow" and "nope, not into you, Madame Wreech, though your son Ludwig is my candidate for "Should be Heinrich's boyfriend if I can't be instead of those other guys" - all this is unmistakably sexual stuff, and not conductive to the manly chaste image of how Frederician era Prussians after all the 19th century propaganda efforts were thought of. (Which is also why Schmidt-Lötzen had to explain in his preface that contrary to the 19th century image, sexual licence at court didn't start when nephew FW2 took over, there, gulp, actually lots of affairs among the Prussian nobility before that.)
(Meanwhile, most about the wives and kids didn't make the cut because it had nothing to do with Frederician goings on, and in the original volume Schmidt-Lötzen assumed his readers would only want to know about the historically important people.)
What I find culturally interesting is that Lehndorff - who does not lose his appreciation for the male form in his older years, see his remarks on Poniatowiski when he meets him in Poland - doesn't appear to have had the type of sexual identity struggle we are almost conditioned to expect about all of this. When he angsts, it's about questions like "will I never get out of this dead-end job?" or "it's all over between Heinrich and me, I just know it!", "why doesn't the King ever notice me?", "why does Heinrich keep going for jerks?". Not "is there somethign wrong with me for loving whom I love?" And in his later years, when he tries to find a balance between being a responsible family man and his relationship with Heinrich (and ends up deciding not to travel with Heinrich to Russia or France, despite wanting to), this isn't in any way coded as "I must do what society expects me to", it's "my wife is pregnant and/or my kids need their dad" (since journeys abroad take several months at least).
Now, of course Lehndorff lives in an age where sexual fidelity was not expected from men of his class, and one didn't, as a rule, marry for love but as a sensible business arrangement, though some mutual consideration thereafter was expected. But otoh, all of Voltaire's digs about Potsdamites in his trashy pamphlet would not have worked as digs if it had been gay and bi utopia. (See also Catherine's Hamburg-based friend Frau Bielke writing to her that surely, if Heinrich had married charming Princess Sophie back then, "he would not have made himself guilty of the terrible things which today darken his name". In a letter from 1766, it's hard to read this as referring to anything but Heinrich by then being an internationally known gay man.) So: how much of this matter-of-factly bisexuality was Lehndorff-specific, and how much was Rokoko age? (Not a rethoric question, I haven't made up my mind.)
Re: (not much) Katte! (but much Lehndorff)
Date: 2020-04-24 05:17 am (UTC)Yes *exactly*. The plan is for them to negotiate exactly those boundaries. It helps that they hooked up while *trying to find Fritz and fearing he was dead*, because Katte will be able to tell Fritz, "Of *course* I bonded with him, he was the only one as motivated as I was to find you!" And they will continue in that vein.
I know my Fritz. ;) So does Katte, I might add.
a friend advises him to try a prostitute, Lehndorff does so and concludes it's just not worth it because it's v.v. awkward afterwards (is it more gentlemanly to wait or to send her away immediately?),
Huh, I don't remember this, but then Lehndorff was also several months ago, so if you told us, I might have forgotten.
sexual licence at court didn't start when nephew FW2 took over, there, gulp, actually lots of affairs among the Prussian nobility before that
LOL
doesn't appear to have had the type of sexual identity struggle we are almost conditioned to expect about all of this. When he angsts, it's about questions like "will I never get out of this dead-end job?" or "it's all over between Heinrich and me, I just know it!", "why doesn't the King ever notice me?", "why does Heinrich keep going for jerks?". Not "is there somethign wrong with me for loving whom I love?"
Yeah, that is really interesting.
So: how much of this matter-of-factly bisexuality was Lehndorff-specific, and how much was Rokoko age? (Not a rethoric question, I haven't made up my mind.)
Yes, a very interesting question. I wonder how much of it was class-based: Lehndorff and his ilk are classically educated and have lots of Greco-Roman models if they want them; pamphlet readers are maybe not?
I've also wondered how much to have my characters worry about their sexuality. Katte and Suhm (Dresden!) are worldly enough to be cool with it, Fritz is like, "Hey, it pisses Dad off, how bad can it be?" but I wonder about the uneducated, minor nobility, brought-up-at-FW's-court Peter.
I feel like I saw someone on DW whom I don't normally follow reviewing a book that talks about exactly this...ah, yes, it was Men In Love: Masculinity and Sexuality in the Eighteenth Century. I haven't read it, have no idea if the author's any good at history, but it might be
relevant to your current interestsworth checking out.Re: (not much) Katte! (but much Lehndorff)
Date: 2020-04-24 06:28 am (UTC)No, you haven't, I didn't mention it then.
Lehndorff and his ilk are classically educated and have lots of Greco-Roman models if they want them; pamphlet readers are maybe not?
True. I mean, middle-class education became more and more a thing - one generation later, the entire French Revolution VIPs are well educated middle class citizens, and on the non-revolutionary side, there's good old Goethe (who btw did read Voltaire's pamphlet as well as the later memoirs, the former with a mixture of being appalled and amused, and the later just being amused, what with several years and De La Literature Allemande in between), who with his sister got a fantastic classical education as the son of a Frankfurt lawyer - but so did middle class morality. Les Liasons Dangereuses was such a bestseller partly because of the "see what the depraved nobility is up to!!!!!" factor, Lessing's tragedy Emilia Galotti has a licentious prince aiming at forcing the titular middle class heroine to become his mistress, and the entire genre of the "sentimental novel" in England as inaugurated by Richardson revolves around the "depraved aristo vs virtuous middle class people" construct.
(And speaking of Voltaire's memoirs, remember, Lehndorff has a great time listening to Heinrich reading them out loud to him in Rheinsberg, complete with commentary, but is SHOCKED that they get sold in bookshops to the people at large in Berlin.)
Thank you for the reading tip! A quick googling tells me the author is specialized in English literature, and the summary only mentions English and French examples, so the use for my current purpose might be limited, though.
I wonder about the uneducated, minor nobility, brought-up-at-FW's-court Peter.
Good point. There's also this: if FW, who as you point out transfers Peter to Wesel the same day he gives orders for Keyserlingk to sleep in the same room with Fritz all the time and not to leave his side, thought Peter was the guilty and experienced party in whatever had happened, why doesn't anything worse than a transfer to Wesel happen to Peter? It's not like the Keiths are of such great influence in Prussia, and Peter is a fourth son, right? Why doesn't he simply get dismissed from the service? Unless, at this point, FW sees him and Fritz as equally culpable and Peter doesn't have a reputation for sexual license, or any kind of experience.
Re: (more) Katte! (some Lehndorff) (more Keith)
Date: 2020-04-24 07:32 am (UTC)No, you haven't, I didn't mention it then.
Aha. Well, as
middle-class education became more and more a thing...but so did middle class morality.
Very true. And I should clarify: while I expect that the
depraved nobleseducated classes *also* read pamphlets, what with society being a pyramid, I imagine the bulk of pamphlet readership (viz. sales) is going to come from lower down, smack in the midst of middle-class morality. And gossipy sensationalism about Potsdamites is thus going to sell.Thank you for the reading tip! A quick googling tells me the author is specialized in English literature, and the summary only mentions English and French examples, so the use for my current purpose might be limited, though.
Ah, too bad. It makes sense, though, as the context in which I saw it reviewed was someone in the Jacobite fandom. If there were still libraries, I would endorse checking out the bibliography in case it had materials more suited to your interests, but alas. No libraries at the present time.
Oh, wait, I just remembered. I do have a reference of translated-into-English primary sources on sodomy in 18th century France on my wishlist (perhaps waiting for my next book bribe, or at least the return of my concentration). Despite the different law and religion, for the Francophilic Hohenzollerns, the French context might be at least relevant as part of the cultural milieu (as I recall, it does have a Voltaire passage!), and this book might also have bibliographic references of use. Much of it is police reports, so less relevant as far as Prussian law and enforcement thereof, but possibly there are some insightful comments into the mindsets of people in different classes.
If not relevant enough now, then it may still be of interest after real life lets up a little.
Also, maybe if we click on enough of these books on Amazon, their algorithm will have some suggestions about 18th century manly unchaste Prussians. ;)
Unless, at this point, FW sees him and Fritz as equally culpable and Peter doesn't have a reputation for sexual license, or any kind of experience.
I absolutely always assumed FW always saw them as at least equally culpable, if not Peter as the victim. I mean, one, Peter is Fritz's age. Two, granted we have little data on Peter's personality, but between Wilhelmine and Lehndorff, I get the impression of Fritz as the driver in that relationship and Peter as kind of sedate, not especially strong-willed, and future family man. Three, FW's opinion of his son couldn't be lower.
Four, well, there's this 1731 passage with which you're very familiar:
"Did you seduce Katte, or did Katte seduce you?" Whereupon the Crown Prince replied without hesitation: "I seduced him", to which his royal majesty returned: "I am pleased that you finally speak the truth for a change."
Regardless of whether that's seduce sexually or just seduce into treason (I think it's both), FW is absolutely convinced Fritz is at fault. I assume the same was true of Peter. Even regardless of whether there really was a sexual peccadillo, as I think there was, or just plotting to defy FW and escape.
It's not like the Keiths are of such great influence in Prussia, and Peter is a fourth son, right? Why doesn't he simply get dismissed from the service?
Fourth child, but yes, a second or younger son iirc, which is the salient point. As to your second question, well, one, we don't know what they got caught doing. Two, FW would probably want to take the legal route, as he later did with Katte, and even if he doesn't mind dragging Fritz's name through the mud for sex, Fritz and Peter might not have done anything that would stand up in a court martial as grounds for dismissal.
I don't know exactly what counted as "sodomy," but FW hated masturbation, so even if the two were talking and flirting and maybe kissing/touching a bit in Fritz's room, and they both went back to their separate chambers, and the next morning the servants found evidence of Fritz having ejaculated in bed or in his breeches, that might be enough for FW. Especially given that Peter is *also* BFFs with wretched son and supporting his general defiance.
Btw, something occurs to me about that seducing Katte quote. It makes total sense if Fritz was frantically blaming Katte the whole time in 1730 and FW didn't believe him, and despised him as a coward. But as we've seen, from August 10 to the very end, Fritz was steadfastly trying to take all the blame and absolve Katte as the one who tried to talk him out of it and got pressured (seduced) into it.
It's been a year by August 1731. I wonder if FW has selective memory and is remembering what he wants to remember.
Bastard.
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From:Re: (not much) Katte! (but much Lehndorff)
Date: 2020-04-24 05:24 am (UTC)Lehndorff is soooo cute, I love him <3 I also love that you are STILL telling us new and adorabe stories about him :D
Not "is there somethign wrong with me for loving whom I love?"
Huhhhh that is really interesting. (I clearly don't have an answer, but am enjoying you guys talking about it!) ETA: I can kind of see at least part of it being him -- he's just too wrapped up in Heinrich and his other concerns, hee -- but I think at least some of it would have had to be cultural as well, since as you pointed out earlier he does angst about his limp and whether he's attractive, right?
Re: (not much) Katte! (but much Lehndorff)
Date: 2020-04-24 06:03 am (UTC)(I, um, was motivated to look up some Lehndorff quotes in German, not in the English translation of a translation I made for you, hence my coming up with this stuff.)
Anyway: yes, should have added, there's also this "looking in the mirror" passage, and of course Lehndorff, who lives in a highly militarized society that FW has so succesfully transformed that for a young nobleman to not have gotten any military training (or have served with the army at least a while) is the big exception and only going with a physical handicap. (BTW, I think part of the appeal of Hotham is that he by contrast comes from a society where a young nobleman first gets to travel a lot, and sure, the military is an option, but it's really not a must.) It's not something Lehndorff spends diary page after diary page at, but it's in the background, and when there's war time, and he's at court with the women, the old men and early on the captured French and Austrian officers, he's aware.
Something that is definitely of the age and not just Lehndorff-specific is the free male crying, which everyone from Fritz downwards to the overworked preachers in the countryside do, of course, we knew that. I looked up whether there's an entry on taking leave of Heinrich when he leaves for the 7 Years War, and there isn't one in the summer of 1756 when it starts, but there is one in early 1757; remember, all four Royal brothers were back in Berlin in January 1757 to visit Mom, and this was the last time they saw their mother alive. However, Fritz and Heinrich on January 11th went straight back to Dresden, where the Winter Quarters were. (AW and Ferdinand remained in Berlin for a few days more.) While Vol.1 has just the sentence "but the joy" (of SD) "is short lived, as the King and Prince Heinrich depart on the same day", Volume 2, Lehndorff Unplugged, has this far longer and eminently Lehndorffian passage of January 11th 1757:
The entire royal family swims in tears about the King's departure. For me, in addition to this general pain there's the particular one to lose Prince Heinrich who returns (to the army) with his majesty. I go to him that same evening, but it is impossible for me to pronounce a single word; I cry, and leave again. (...) I do talk with Henckel and Lamberg (Heinrich's ADs) who return to Dresden as well, and withdraw sadly to my home. I cannot sleep and write a letter to Prince Heinrich.
Re: (not much) Katte! (but much Lehndorff)
From:Re: Katte!
Date: 2020-04-24 05:19 am (UTC):((((((( I'm also really glad that things seem to have worked out for her, more or less.
Re: Katte!
Date: 2020-04-24 05:18 am (UTC)<3
1) FW saying that if *his* father had treated him the way he treated FW, he would have shot himself, but Fritz endures everything ([personal profile] cahn, have we told you about this delightful FW quote?)
I think you have :P Or maybe now I've finally gotten used to HOW FW IS. >:
Re: Katte!
Date: 2020-04-24 05:22 am (UTC)Guys, I spent 4 hours coding that map, somebody say something nice about it! :P (I put it in Rheinsberg next to the escape attempt chronology, which btw I should revisit, because it was based on Lavisse, and Lavisse is sometimes unclear/imprecise/typoed/incomplete, compared to Koser and Hinrichs.)
Re: Katte!
Date: 2020-04-24 05:31 am (UTC)(Can I get a scale marking? I mean, I can compare to a modern map, so it's not a big deal :) )
Re: Katte!
Date: 2020-04-24 05:38 am (UTC)Scale: I will look into how to do that! Right now I can just tell you it's 325 miles from Berlin to Wesel, because I looked that up for the post on Peter and how he totally got caught with Fritz. ;
ETA: I'll still look into the numeric scale, but I just processed what you said, and...this *is* a modern map. That's why I complained about not being able to (easily) get 1730 borders. It depicts Germany today, so if you know where the Polish border is in the east and the French and Dutch borders in the west, then you should have an adequate sense of scale. Now, if you want numbers beyond the 325 mile one, I will see what I can do about tucking that into the bottom right corner, because it is a good idea to have a scale on a map. :)
Re: Katte!
Date: 2020-04-26 04:53 am (UTC)Re: Katte!
From:Re: Katte!
Date: 2020-04-24 08:37 pm (UTC)Re: Katte!
Date: 2020-04-24 08:47 pm (UTC)Re: Katte!
Date: 2020-04-22 01:43 am (UTC)Selena: *finds, reads, and summarizes Ziebura*
Cahn: *wants Ziebura*
Me: *obtains, scans, and machine-translates Ziebura*
Me: *wants Hinrichs*
Cahn: *pays for Hinrichs in return for Ziebura translation*
Me: *obtains and scans Hinrichs*
Selena: *reads and summarizes Hinrichs*
Me: *makes chronological map pertaining to Hinrichs*
:D :D :D
I know we keep saying this, but DW really is the earthly paradise!
Re: Katte!
Date: 2020-04-24 05:13 am (UTC)Re: Katte!
Date: 2020-04-22 05:33 am (UTC)Huhhhh, that's interesting. Also fits that story you told me about FW and how he froze himself at some rank because that's what he was at when his dad died, and he was the only one who could promote him.
this being an obedient son to F1 thing even included F1's funeral.
This is fascinating. Although also I can see it, as even today there's a certain amount of "must respect the dead person's wishes" going on for funerals, so I can see it being an even larger drive for him.
whose name means "friedrich" or "peaceful", having a peaceful realm
HAHAHAHAH
Grumbkow in the late 20s got a secret Imperial protection letter from Seckendorff in case FW dies and he's faced with a vengeful SD and her son.
...that is So Grumbkow :P (I kinda admire his dedication to his own skin!)
The actual Katte (and Doris Ritter) parts: EEP. I don't think I really internalized how... rough all this was, before. I know, I have heard a lot about Katte being executed, which is obviously the worst part, but because it's so over the top (and also, I guess, because I knew about it before I knew details) it's almost like hearing a story, in a way? Hearing more abut the interrogations and FW threatening torture and all that, somehow makes it all more real and awful. And this was his son and his best friend/lover, not some stranger or something -- not that that would have made it better, of course, but... it definitely makes it worse :P
Re: Katte!
Date: 2020-04-22 07:21 am (UTC)Bear in mind though how he buried poor Gundling. :(
Also, of course Fritz himself was buried directly against his will, i.e., not quietly but in a ceremony with pomp, and not with his dogs in Sanssouci but with his Dad in a church.
FW2: Look, that was my once in a life time chance to say "FUCK YOU UNCLE FRITZ", and I took it. We can't all build obelisks for this purpose.
It's also an interesting difference to Fritz' concept of kingship. Because the "first servant of the state" thing is definitely related to how FW saw his actual job, and King Fritz respected (and praised) his father's job performance, but I don't think he believed in a "Prussian monarch as a sacred institution". People had to obey him, Fritz. Because he was Fritz.
Re: Katte!
Date: 2020-04-24 05:16 am (UTC)That's an interesting point about Fritz, too.
Re: Katte!
Date: 2020-04-24 05:18 am (UTC)Re: Katte!
Date: 2020-04-26 04:30 am (UTC)