Frederick the Great discussion post 11
Feb. 7th, 2020 09:43 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cahnIn our last installment, our heroes found that Henri de Catt's memoirs, a major source for current biographers of Frederick the Great, are not to be trusted!!
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rheinsberg
rheinsbergcahn
Re: Fritz as a writer: an early Victorian take
Date: 2020-02-24 02:45 pm (UTC)True. I can now tell you he also quotes Fritz' various war memoirs without a question mark. Except for Mollwitz; there, he adds Schwerin's account. To be fair, we also get gems like the Venetian ambassador Errizzo reporting that MT in the September of 1745 (i.e. when she's about to meet Wilhelmine and see Franzl crowned said the following about Fritz: "(Friedrich) she called a prince who, despite the ease with which he breaks his word - and that he does so can't be called a minor flaw - can't be denied to possess a great acumen, a comprehensive talent and a relentless occupation with his duties as a ruler. As a general, he adds to these qualities an always alert vigilance, which she judges to be absolutely essential for the profession."
So, by 1745, they seem to see each other thusly:
Fritz: She's courageous and determined, despite being a woman.
MT: He's lying liar who lies, but also a smart, capable workoholic and an A plus general.
(Zimmermann: But Fritz NEVER BROKE HIS WORD! NEVER EVER!!!! I can't emphasize this enough in my "Fragments!" And he was always gallant to women! You should have married him, not that gloating guy from Lorraine!!!)
And I think I remember you saying Franzl did want to compromise?
He did suggest it, though in the second Silesian war, not in the first, and not in public; in public, he and MT presented a united front.
Re: Fritz as a writer: an early Victorian take
Date: 2020-02-24 03:14 pm (UTC)MT: He's lying liar who lies, but also a smart, capable workoholic and an A plus general.
Sounds about right!
And he was always gallant to women!
Brief pause while I ask Zimmermann what he's smoking and if he can share, 'cause it sounds like the good stuff.
You should have married him, not that gloating guy from Lorraine!!!)
Now I feel sorry for Frau Zimmermann (if there was one), if he thinks Fritz is better husband material than Franzl. UM!
Also, all this talk of how much less bloodshed there would have been if MT and Fritz had married keeps reminding me of the ancient Greeks. For lo, this happened:
Medea: *saves Jason's ass once a week*
Jason: *abandons her*
Medea: *kills everybody*
Medea: *kills her own kids*
Greeks: Man, Jason sucked. So much bloodshed could have been prevented if she'd been luckier in the husband department. This calls for a fix-it fic.
Achilles: Hi! I'm your new husband.
Greeks: So much less bloodshed!
Self: Suuuuure. I mean, if by "less" you mean "different," sure!
I honestly can't decide whether a good marriage or a bad marriage would have been bloodier. Scenario 1: they team up against their many enemies. Scenario 2: Marital warfare.
I mean, sure, a lot of these stories take place in the Elysian Fields, but honestly, if there's one power duo I would trust to bloody up the Elysian Fields...
Other heroes: We're already dead! You can't kill us again!
Medea: I'm a witch. Wanna bet?
Achilles: I fought a river once!
Re: Fritz as a writer: an early Victorian take
Date: 2020-02-24 05:25 pm (UTC)Achilles: Hi! I'm your new husband.
Waaaaait, I thought I knew my Greek myths but I didn't know about this fix-it, tell me more? (I guess, now that I think on it, my Greek lit, as opposed to myths, is rather patchy.)
Re: Fritz as a writer: an early Victorian take
Date: 2020-02-25 09:30 am (UTC)Also, the Greek corpus is huge, and there are always myth surprises out there waiting for you. :)
power couples of the ancient world
Date: 2020-02-24 06:43 pm (UTC)In any case, seeing as Achilles told Odysseus during the later's trip through the underworld he'd give all his post mortel glory in the underworld for the life of a living farmer, and that Medea actually could raise (some) of the dead, I could see a possible deal. Then again, Medea strikes me as too cautious to go for a guy famous for his short temper as any kind of long term ally, let alone husband. I mean, look at how she secured herself a safe haven in Athens before committing her bloody revenge in Corinth. And no way would she put up with playing second fiddle to Patroklos!
Now I feel sorry for Frau Zimmermann (if there was one), if he thinks Fritz is better husband material than Franzl. UM!
Indeed!
Re: power couples of the ancient world
Date: 2020-02-25 02:16 am (UTC)(Have not read the Argonautica since college, but am still boggling at this ship all these many years later.)
Now, I'm not comparing MT to Medea, but it's the same "He was the MAN! She was the WOMAN!" logic for what makes a good marriage.
And no way would she put up with playing second fiddle to Patroklos!
Hahaha. Maybe they could make it work in some kind of "separate spheres" arrangement? I'm getting the urge to write this, but sigh, I cannot write these days, so I'll add it to my wishlist.
ETA: Meant to add, my current favorite power duo is you + me: librarian + reader! Zimmermann vs. Münchow is only the latest and greatest of our output. :D
Re: Fritz as a writer: an early Victorian take
Date: 2020-02-24 05:14 pm (UTC)MT: He's lying liar who lies, but also a smart, capable workoholic and an A plus general.
She's courageous and determined, despite being a woman,
and my sister is absolutely not allowed to have lunch with her(I know you said this upthread, but I just have to repeat it at every opportunity because Friiiiiiiitz)More seriously, this is actually kind of amazing as fallout of the Catt diary -- that we were all so sure that Fritz was horrible about MT, but it seems like at this point at least that primary sources don't seem to have anything super negative about her yet, it was just in Catt's memoirs??
(Zimmermann: But Fritz NEVER BROKE HIS WORD! NEVER EVER!!!! I can't emphasize this enough in my "Fragments!" And he was always gallant to women! You should have married him, not that gloating guy from Lorraine!!!)
lolololol Zimmerman would totally be the fic-writer who woobifies all the villains :D
in public, he and MT presented a united front.
Franzl/MT, my OTP <3 (Franzl, you should just have stayed away from the other ladies!)
Re: Fritz as a writer: an early Victorian take
Date: 2020-02-25 02:25 am (UTC)There's also Lehndorff's (I think?) account of Fritz holding forth to a captive audience on how awful women in general are and how they smell bad, and everyone fleeing as soon as dinner was over. Which
lolololol Zimmerman would totally be the fic-writer who woobifies all the villains :D
OMG you're right!
Re: Fritz as a writer: an early Victorian take
Date: 2020-02-25 02:19 am (UTC)True. I can now tell you he also quotes Fritz' various war memoirs without a question mark.
Taking Fritz at face value is pretty special.
Except for Mollwitz; there, he adds Schwerin's account.
Well, that's good!
MT: He's lying liar who lies, but also a smart, capable workoholic and an A plus general.
Also, wait, weren't we having a discussion a few months ago about how people were getting on MT's case for not being chill enough to say positive things about Fritz like he did to her? Perhaps they're not reading enough ambassador reports.
Re: Fritz as a writer: an early Victorian take
Date: 2020-02-25 05:57 pm (UTC)