Frederick the Great discussion post 11
Feb. 7th, 2020 09:43 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cahnIn our last installment, our heroes found that Henri de Catt's memoirs, a major source for current biographers of Frederick the Great, are not to be trusted!!
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rheinsberg
rheinsbergcahn
Re: Blanning 2
Date: 2020-02-22 10:41 am (UTC)I'm pretty sure I had seen that before, but I still don't consider I've seen it from a reliable source. But yes, a bio would be nice. I'd really love to get my hands on her complete correspondence, especially now that I have the high-volume scanner, but the cheapest I can find is $50 each for 3 volumes, and $150 is a leeettle out of my price range right now. It's on my wishlist, though.
If you want her partial correspondence, it's available cheaply or even free, but warning that 19th century editors meddled perniciously.
"The callgirls of Venice and the rent boys of Rome" indeed. :) (Algarotti: As if I'd ever have to pay for it. I'm the one getting paid, err, showered with grateful affection!)
Hahahahaaaa. I mean, I do keep seeing references to him visiting brothels, but I think they keep being traceable back to Voltaire poems, so...Voltaire trying to slander his romantic rival from afar is totally a possibility here. :P
Re: coronation - I'm with you, I only ever heard there wasn't a proper one, which is why all the Tumblr art depicting one makes me go "err…".
Myeaahh. Between you and me not knowing about it, FW not having one, and the likelihood of Fritz spending that much money on something like that...I think Blanning's being sloppy again.
BTW, if he was along for the homage ceremony that's yet another sign of royal favour to the Katte clan
Agreed, although I'm not sure at what date Hans Heinrich stopped being stationed in Königsberg; if he was just returning to the place where he worked, that's a little less special.
Seriously, though, when your boss promotes you and showers favor on you (by his standards) and then you have to listen to his homoerotic banter all the way from Berlin to Königsberg...I hope he was spared that. :P (
(BTW, if he was along for the homage ceremony that's yet another sign of royal favour to the Katte clan, and I'm even more baffled at Thiebault's "Fritz did never more than not persecute them" Statement.)
Very true. It's like, first Fritz promotes him to Field Marshal and personally hands over the protocol, then he takes him to the homage ceremony, then he makes him a count. Then, when his male line dies out without issue, suddenly his brother's kids get an heiress, Lehndorff and his cousin's happiness be damned.
Thiebault: Ungrateful Fritz gave them nothing!
This is also one reason I think Peter's lack of favor was more in Peter's mind than in Fritz's. Though I wouldn't be surprised if the stories have merged by this point, 60 years later, and Peter's lack of adequate recompense (which, as we've seen, gets dramatically escalated in legend to a showdown with Fritz tossing the letter into the fire and Katte expiring practically on the spot from humiliation) has translated into "All 1730 accomplices got screwed over."
I'm with disseration writer on the intellectuals probably wanting something to do. That, and presumably August of Saxony (or Brühl in his name) paid more.
Same. I think Blanning is doing Algarotti a disservice.
Blanning: also drives me crazy by using URLs for his citations and then not even going to the Wayback Machine to make sure they're archived. Twice now I've seen his URLs gone. One was archived, one wasn't. GAH.
Re: Blanning 2
Date: 2020-02-22 04:02 pm (UTC)Seeing as Algarotti is also his professional rival of sorts in that nice Crown Prince Fritz will surely be a generous patron, it's not impossible! (And didn't Algarotti's "Newton for the Ladies" compete with Voltaire's and Emily's "Newton for Beginners" in terms of book sales?
Hans Heinrich's attitude to sexuality: impossible to ascertain, I'd say. Just because he subscribed to the FW school of dutiful service instead of baroque splendour doesn't mean anything. So did (gay) Steuben two generations later. Him being religious might be more of a signifier. Incidentally, this reminds, I very quickly had a look at the two testimonies - Major von Schack and the preacher – and it looks like Fontane excerpted all the key passages for the Wanderungen. However, something the complete texts make clear is that both were letters explicitly written for Hans Heinrich. Both the Major and the Preacher were better at writing condolence letters than certain Hohenzollern (plural), and they keep reassuring Hans Heinrich how brave (without being boastful) his son was, and how strong in the faith in the end. Keeping the intended recipient for the descriptions in mind, I also found it interesting that the Major doesn’t mention Fritz at all, while the preacher mentions Hans Herrmann looking searchingly for him with longing and then seeing „his Jonathan, the Crown Prince“, and then „taking his leave of him in French words“ . (Fontane quotes this as well, but as he doesn’t quote the entire descriptions of either Major or Preacher, I wasn’t aware von Schack doesn’t mention Fritz at all, while the good Pastor does.
Jonathan of course as in David and „your love was sweeter than the love of women“ Jonathan. Which a man well versed in his bible would know. Noteworthy as well: you’d think Fritz would be cast as David in this scenario, given that it’s Jonathan who dies. But no. Katte is David, Fritz is Jonathan.
Re: Blanning 2
Date: 2020-02-22 04:22 pm (UTC)Hans Heinrich's attitude to sexuality: impossible to ascertain, I'd say. Just because he subscribed to the FW school of dutiful service instead of baroque splendour doesn't mean anything...Him being religious might be more of a signifier.
True, and I was thinking of his apparently being religious as something he had in common with FW. Plus just in general being in high favor with FW? Although FW is a notoriously bad judge of who's actually like him and a fit role model for his sons and who's not, so...
However, something the complete texts make clear is that both were letters explicitly written for Hans Heinrich.
Yes, and that surprised me, because Fontane says that Schack's was written for Natzmer. Otoh, Schack might well have written near identical letters to Katte's dad and head of his regiment.
Both the Major and the Preacher were better at writing condolence letters than certain Hohenzollern (plural)
Hahaha. But who isn't, really?
Noteworthy as well: you’d think Fritz would be cast as David in this scenario, given that it’s Jonathan who dies.
I always cast Fritz as Jonathan in my fic (my boys love coming up with Biblical and Classical antecedents), because then you get all the FW-Saul parallels. *Which is interesting*, if you're the garrison preacher at Küstrin making this implied comparison. :P
Fontane quotes this as well, but as he doesn’t quote the entire descriptions of either Major or Preacher, I wasn’t aware von Schack doesn’t mention Fritz at all, while the good Pastor does.
Yes, that was interesting! Thanks for confirming that I hadn't just missed one. I also didn't see Katte's last words spelled out, so I still don't know what Fontane's source is.
Re: Blanning 2
Date: 2020-02-24 10:19 am (UTC)Great point. Also, FW as Saul works very well, though I guess the Potsdam Giants are standing in for David‘s original purpose of distracting the King from his gloom in that case. :) I do wonder whether FW ever saw that particular letter, or whether Müller‘s mail to Hans Heinrich got respected because man of god, bereft father, etc.?
While it‘s frustrating that he didn‘t render Katte‘s words to Fritz verbatim - because he was standing close enough to hear and understand - and instead just says they were in French, at least he says there were final words. And I‘m still intrigued von Schack bypassed the Fritz encounter entirely. Did he believe that his letter, unlike the Pastor‘s letter, would be read and might be shown to the King? (Who might not be keen on what was meant as a punishment - Fritz having to watch Katte die - also afforded an emotional goodbye. Especially if the version including „there‘s nothing to forgive“ applies.)
Re: Blanning 2
Date: 2020-02-24 10:39 am (UTC)HAHAHA. It had occurred to me that the David-Saul relationship is missing from this parallel, but the Potsdam Giants quip is awesome. I guess this Saul sent for Goliath instead of David!
Oh, get this. The version of Katte's final letter to FW that I put in Rheinsberg has an ellipsis in it. Quite by accident, I ran across a fuller version, in French, yesterday, and I saw what was in the ellipsis. Paraphrase: "Saul, David, and Manasseh were all great sinners, and *they* repented, and God gave them grace. You too can be like God, FW!"
So here, Katte's comparing *himself* to both Saul and David, which is interesting.
I do wonder whether FW ever saw that particular letter, or whether Müller‘s mail to Hans Heinrich got respected because man of god, bereft father, etc.?...Did he believe that his letter, unlike the Pastor‘s letter, would be read and might be shown to the King?
Ooh, those are interesting questions! Especially given:
Did he believe that his letter, unlike the Pastor‘s letter, would be read and might be shown to the King?
Yesss. I like it. Maybe both of them were hedging their bets. Although the Jonathan comparison is a little surprising if you're actively worried about the King reading your mail.
I can see not flaunting the fact that Fritz got to say goodbye, and what the final words were, though, but given that all the foreign envoys knew within 5 days, and all of Cologne within a couple months, it's difficult to imagine anyone could keep FW from finding out. I guess neither Schack nor Besser would have taken the fall for that if they were worried about punishment (Münchow and Lepel being the decision makers), so just omitting the fact from their letters would be sufficient to protect them.
Anyway, you may be onto something about the omissions.
I *still* want to know what Fontane's source was.
Re: Blanning 2
Date: 2020-02-28 05:25 am (UTC)Re: Blanning 2
Date: 2020-02-28 01:16 pm (UTC)