Frederick the Great, discussion post 6

[cahn]

...I think we need another one (seriously, you guys, this is THE BEST) and I'd better make it now before I disappear into the wilds of music performance.

(also, as of this week there are two Frederician fics in the yuletide archive and eeeeeeeeeee)
(huh, only one of them is actually tagged with Frederick the Great even though two with Maria Theresia and Wilhelmine, eeeeeee this is awesome I CAN'T WAIT)

Frederick the Great masterpost

Comments

Re: Fredersdorf letters

[mildred_of_midgard]

*bows with deep gratitude for your write-up*

Okay, Editor continues to fanboy Fritz like it's a life or death competition between him and Peter III.

:DDD Laughed so hard at this, you have no idea.

The poet was tied up in his love to a sophisticated woman, the Marquise du Chatelet, despite the fact this otherwise so touchy man saw himself condemned to the tragic-comic role of a lover who did not solely have to put up with a husband, but also a more fortunate second lover. But perhaps he proved in this relationship - which made posterity mock him - to be a decent human being for a change, being content of conducting a purely spiritual love affair, the fervor of which did not lessen.

I mean, she is the usual reason given for why he didn't go, yes, and she is definitely the reason *he* gave *Fritz* (which we all unanimously suspect was one reason of many real reasons), but I have to say, I've often wondered how the Émilie Du Châtelet dynamic with Voltaire worked. Like, she successfully lived with Voltaire for a long time! And she was married in an open relationship! And she was intellectually independent and his clear superior in the quantitative sciences. And I'm just really curious about how she managed all that. She was obviously a truly extraordinary individual on many counts. Hmm, this book looks relevant, is cheap, and is on Kindle. Will put it on my wishlist and let you know if I manage to acquire and read it. Chances of gossipy sensationalism are high!

Wait, ZOMG, my public library has an e-book copy I can check out. Sweet! Now I just have to get my brain to let me concentrate enough to read. Émilie, here I come!

Reader can't help but notice that Voltaire's letter is written in French - the collection contains both the French original and a German translation by editor - which means Fredersdorf knew at least enough French to comprehend this one.

Oh, that is interesting. I have often wondered why Fritz didn't write in French and Fredersdorf in German, aka why Fredersdorf didn't pick up enough French to spare Fritz having to write in the Hated German Tongue. I wonder if Fredersdorf *didn't* know enough French to comprehend this and had to find a translator himself. It's not like I expect Voltaire to have learned German. (I'm not aware that he did, anyway, nor would Fritz have encouraged it; cahn, there's a famous anecdote where some foreign visitor arrived to work at Fritz's court, Fritz asked if he spoke German, he said--like a normal person--"No, but I promise to begin immediately!" and Fritz responded, "No, no! You must NOT learn any German while living in Prussia; it would ruin the purity of your French.") I suppose it's also likely that Fredersdorf and Fritz just started communicating in German and Fredersdorf never felt confident enough in his French to suggest changing that, but his passive comprehension improved after enough time spent at court.

I don't know if it's the same letter or a different one, but I've also seen Voltaire writing to Fredersdorf on this occasion quoted as follows, "I swear that I am in despair over leaving you and the king; but it is a thing I cannot avoid. Please do what you can with the dear marquis, Fredersdorf, good God, with the king himself, find out what can be done to allow me the consolation of seeing him before I leave. I really want it, I want to hug the abbé, and the marquis; the marquis shall have no bigger hug than you; nor the king either."

I'm kind of guessing Fredersdorf's response was to pass these letters onto Fritz without comment, thinking, "Voltaire, I'm not touching this with a ten-foot pole. You made your bed, lie in it." That's one explosion I wouldn't want to get into the middle of. But maybe Fredersdorf is braver and/or nicer than I am.

So was Fritz, though Editor says that Son of Enlightenment Fritz only pretended to be interested to indulge Fredersdorf and really knew it was all rubbish and you couldn't make gold this way.

Without having read the correspondence, the takes I've seen on it in biographers is that Fritz was kind of of two minds about it: he let himself be persuaded into some enthusiasm by Fredersdorf, whose main hobby it was, but retained some skepticism, and was all "I knew it was too good to be true" when it didn't work out.

Conclusion: does not read like taunting mockery to me at all, but more of the concerned and loving vein as previous. Though the Editor does wonder whether the second sentence is Fritz the marriage enemy making a (fatherly) joke.

If it weren't for Fritz's known history as marriage enemy, I wouldn't either, but the "if it helps with your nursing" reads to me like Fredersdorf has had to come up with an acceptable excuse to explain his marriage to an unhappy Fritz. Followed immediately with a sentence that appears to be telling him he won't be happy without a male object of his sexual affections...he comes across as genuinely concerned about Fredersdorf's health but really not thrilled about the marriage. At least with all the context.

So no, it's not unambiguously resentful, but I can see where they're coming from.

Newly revealed detail: Mimi the monkey was a female! Because Fritz writes "die Mimi", and he ought to know. Makes more sense of the name, too.

Makes much more sense! I tell you, even before you asked me, when I was translating the other letter to Suhm, I pored over every letter mentioning her very carefully looking for *any* unambiguous signs of gender, because, yes, Fritz ought to know! I didn't find any and concluded that while *I* thought all the masculine pronouns referred to "le singe" and should be translated as "it", I would follow the biographer I had, in the absence of counterevidence. However, I did know that the biographer I had was incredibly unreliable, in that every time I follow one of his footnotes to a source, I'm like, "I don't even speak this language and *I* can tell that's not what it says!" He's good on providing lots of detail compared to other sources I have (due to being limited to e-books) but very very bad on getting the detail right.

So thank you for setting the record straight!

Also: we were wrong about Fritz not having literal monkeys! I guess this means she was still with him after Sanssouci was built? I need to know more about this monkey; Fritz the only one who talks about her that I know of, and you'd think people who interacted with him would have mentioned a monkey running around. They're hard to miss!

Where on earth did she live? I guess most of his interactions with other people were outside the inner sanctum at Sanssouci, and people in the inner sanctum mostly didn't write memoirs...but, like, Voltaire did, and people like Casanova and Goethe got to wander around his rooms and hear his dogs bark...I guess it's possible Mimi was his only monkey, and she was dead by the time Goethe and Casanova came along (mid 30s to mid 50s sounds about right for the lifespan of most monkeys), so...

But I need to know more about this monkey! As a fanfic writer if nothing else!

Editor, this together with your footnotes on Jewish people makes me fear the worst as to what you'll do in a few years.

*grimace* Same.

There is zilch about an enstragement or dismissal for dishonorable reasons. What happened to Fredesdorf, Editor doesn't say in his his concluding notes, either.

I kind of suspected that might be the case. I had skimmed looking for his name and the relevant dates and keywords, and just didn't see anything jumping out at me. Thank you for confirming.

Sadly, I don't think he means German hearts should be inspired to write tender letters to their life partners.

You mean their adopted sons who are older than they are. :P

But anyway: it was totally worth it, and Mildred, thank you so much for this book!

Thank you so much for reading and summarizing and excerpting it for us! I can't thank you enough! Your Fredersdorf and Lehndorff write-ups have been absolute treasure troves.

Speaking of which, I have obtained Lehndorff 2 and 3, and I'm sending them over now! Gott bewahre dir!

Re: Fredersdorf letters

[mildred_of_midgard]

Re Fritz as marriage enemy, I want to add that if I were a biographer, I would definitely not *assert* that the letter was Fritz being resentful of Fredersdorf's marriage. Just that it's a possibility.

Re: Fredersdorf letters

[selenak]

Incidentally, Lehndorff has gossip on Mrs. Fredersdorf in her widow years. Now I knew she ended up marrying again because she thus became the grandmother of Achim von Arnim (German poet, bff of Clemens Brentano, married to Bettine Brentano, all of whom are nominated characters in this Yuletide's German Literary RPF), and that's also why we still have the letters (the ones she didn't return to Fritz, that is - she left them to her grandkids who of course realised the historical value at once). What I hadn't known was that before marrying Mr. v. Arnim, she had an interlude with someone else. How reliable these stories are, I have no idea, they're not mentioned in any wiki entry, only her two marriages are.

It isn't long ago that a certain Labes, son of a miller, with nothing more than a pretty face had the fortune to please a woman with 160 000 Taler to her name. Good natured as she was, she became engaged to him and thus put him into possession of her entire fortune. One would assume the man to be happy now, but no, he is walking around with a sore face. The woman is the widow of the famous Fredersdorf.

Some months later:

The widow of the famous Fredersdorf, a rich banker's daughter, marries a Herr v. Aschersleben, without a penny to his name but who enables her for the 100 000 Taler she brings him to put a "von" in front of her name at last. (I take it this means Fredersdorf was never ennobled.) Now one should believe that this man was filled of love, joy and delighth for his wife. But nothing of the sort! Fourteen days after her wedding he tells her he wants to divorce her, that he's filled with an unsurmountable revulsion against her and wants to separate. She then decides to give him 10. 000 Taler and break with ihm entirely. People tell me she has become engaged again. This happened in a space of eight days.

Now, which of these stories are true? Both? Neither? Wiki tells me via the entry of her father - she doesn't have one of her own - that Caroline Fredersdorf married Johann Labes (future granddad of Achim von Arnim), and also that he was, wait for it... "Kammerherr", i.e. Chamberlain, of Frederick II. Lehndorff, old buddy, I do suspect you are not reporting proper gossip so much as you're channelling your inner snobbery towards commoners making it good. And getting the jobs you wanted.

Re: Fredersdorf letters

[mildred_of_midgard]

(I take it this means Fredersdorf was never ennobled.)

Well, Editor tells me historians have claimed that he was, but Editor can't agree; he thinks that contemporaries who wrote to him because they wanted something from Fritz used to flatter him by addressing him as though he were a noble (which, imo, probably made them feel better about themselves as well).

Which I guess makes as much sense as anything.

Lehndorff, old buddy, I do suspect you are not reporting proper gossip so much as you're channelling your inner snobbery towards commoners making it good. And getting the jobs you wanted.

Seems plausible!

Re: Fredersdorf letters

[selenak]

Emilie du Chatelet sounds absolutely fascinating, and I look forward to your report. Mind you, from a distance it looks to me as if Voltaire might have gotten along better with women in general? Including those with more social power than him (Madame du Pompadour, Wilhelmine, Catherine), all of whom didn't have the drama going on with him that Fritz did. But then they wouldn't have wanted to elope with him, either. (Yes, that includes Wilhelmine, 1926!Editor. I've read her letters about and to Voltaire, and she's not "ihm hopelessly verfallen", that's her brother.) Another noble woman on friendly footing with Voltaire: one Countess Bentinck (yes, that one), whom he met when getting Fritz' "Anti-Machiavel" to the printing press. Supposedly, she beta-read somewhat, which is one of the reasons she showed up in Berlin later hoping for support for her claim to her inherited principality. (Talk about deja vue: her father had no male heir and tried to get a, yes, really, pragmatic sanction from the Emperor in order to be able for her to inherit regardless while her husband, Reichsgraf Bentinck, was supposed to rule. Alas for her, that guy was no Franz Stephan. They hated each other, she left him after two legal sons and had two illegitimate kids with the cousin she'd been in love with before, then met and befriended Voltaire, then decided new King Frederick sounded like a swell guy to support her claim on Oldenburg and went to Berlin upon Voltaire's reccomendation. Supposedly, the character of Cunegonde in Candide is based on her. As mentioned, Lehndorff started off in an "scandalous woman, paws off my Heinrich!!!!" vein and then found himself climbing the tower of Charlottenburg with her, so she must have been something. After seeing she didn't get anywhere with either brother, she went to Vienna for a while (fellow female Pragmatic Sanction rulers unite) and MT was amazingly cool with her despite the scandalous reputation, but as the principality was firmly in the claws of her husband and the husband was Protestant, there wasn't much to be done. The Countess then went to Hamburg and lived there with her illegitimate kids for the remaining 30 years of her life.

Mimi: look, if the Earl of Rochester could keep a monkey, whom he definitely did not feed and water himself, I'm sure Fritz find the staff. That is, Fredersdorf found them for him. :) But yes, she made it to Sanssouci. I haven't seen mention of another monkey anywhere, so I suppose she was the only one.

Voltaire-Fredersdorf: 1926 Editor claims Voltaire did write him another letter, in (bad) German, as an example of how low Voltaire could sink in attempted flattery, but doesn't quote the other letter. Maybe that one is yours? Anyway, yes, Fredersdorf seems to have just passed it on to Fritz with no comment. Wise man, Fredersdorf. Voltaire of course sounds a bit sniffily about him in the quotes I've seen ("managed everything at Frederick's court and behaved like it, too").

Re: Fredersdorf letters

[mildred_of_midgard]

she's not "ihm hopelessly verfallen", that's her brother.

Indeed, Fritz would have eloped with him to London in a heartbeat if that had been an option. His only really bad judgment when it came to picking a serious partner. (I'm not saying it was sexual, but...something pretty intense there from an intensely homoromantic man.)

Thanks for the Countess Bentinck scoop! Pragmatic Sanction rulers unite!

Mimi: I wasn't wondering who took care of the monkey! Obviously she has staff. The dogs have staff. I was wondering why none of our sources *comment* on the monkey! Monkeys are lively creatures that set manuscripts on fire and do a victory dance over the fiery ashes; they're the sort of thing I'd think you'd notice if you were meeting Fritz and there was one in the vicinity. Especially since his dogs get mentioned all the time. And like you suggested here, how did the dogs and monkey interact? Again, there should be anecdotes!

Gossipy sensationalist wants the gossip, is what I'm saying. :P

1926 Editor claims Voltaire did write him another letter, in (bad) German, as an example of how low Voltaire could sink in attempted flattery

That is low! So Voltaire *did* pick up some German, interesting. I tongue-in-cheek wonder if Fritz thought it contaminated the purity of his French. :P

Fredersdorf is wise, indeed.

Okay, so my most unreliable source has a quote that he says is "almost certainly Voltaire," whatever that means. It's definitely a hilarious quote no matter who said it.

"There is a chancellor, who never speaks, a master of the hunt who wouldn’t dare harm a quail, a grand master who does nothing, a steward who would he hard pressed to tell you whether there is any wine in the cellars, a grand equerry who hasn’t the power to have a horse saddled, a chamberlain, who has never handed him a shirt, a grand master of the wardrobe, who doesn’t know the identity of the court tailor; the functions of all these high-faluting offices are exercised by one man, who is called Fredersdorf."

/snark

Re: Fredersdorf letters

[selenak]

Well, if 1926!Editor, he who swears Fritz did not have a gay bone in his manly fatherly body, finds no other words to describe his hero's feelings for Voltaire than "intellectually in love" - and no, not "loved him spiritually", I know what I'm translating, "intellektuell in ihn verliebt" is the original expression, I think we're all clear that something major was going on.

I sympathize on the frustration of the lack of Mimi anecdotes. Though I sympathize also with whoever was in charge of keeping both Mimi and the dogs happy!

(Lehndorff: this is one job in the Royal household I wold NOT have wanted. Even to be near the King.)

Voltaire picking up some German: he strikes me as a practical man. If you're spending years in Germany where, yes, a great many people speak French, but not necessarily the ones in charge of your well being (servants, cooks etc.), you learn at least enough of the language to say "I like my steak medium, please" or "where do I find the bathroom?". If you additionally are involved in some shady dealings and have ambitions to learn spicy gossip, then knowing the local language is even more useful - at least enough to pick up whether someone is talking about you and/or the King, and whether it's good or bad.

So I doubt whether Voltaire ever cracked a German (untranslated) book, until I'm told otherwise, but I'm not surprised he learned a bit of the language phonetically.

(Since "Candide" actually starts in a German principality and the titular hero as well as his beloved are German, I suppose it also counts as research for a book? And of course Candide is a satire on Leipniz, but I bet, see above, Voltaire read Leipniz in a French translation.)

That is a good quote. :) Though clearly an imperfect list, given that "master of the hunt" is in it and "Spy handler" is not!

Re: Fredersdorf letters

[mildred_of_midgard]

I think we're all clear that something major was going on.

Oh yeah.

Though I sympathize also with whoever was in charge of keeping both Mimi and the dogs happy!

I hope they were separate people! At least at times, they must have been, because Fritz took his dogs on campaign with him, and surely didn't take Mimi or we would have anecdotes. "And then there was the time Mimi fought off the Pandurs single-handedly..." :-P

(Lehndorff: this is one job in the Royal household I wold NOT have wanted. Even to be near the King.)

But Lehndorff! It's not boring! Man, now that you mention it, I wish Lehndorff *had* had this job. Surely, we would have gotten the anecdotes somewhere in those three volumes!

Voltaire: Agreed.

Though clearly an imperfect list, given that "master of the hunt" is in it and "Spy handler" is not!

Ha! Perhaps "spy handler" wasn't common knowledge yet? I don't have a date for this quote, but my impression is that it dates to shortly after Fritz became king, and foreigners are doing their "hot or not?" and "what is the court like?" reports back to their paymasters.

Re: Fredersdorf letters

[cahn]

Man, Countess Bentinck sounds awesome (if lacking in gaydar). I don't suppose she kept a diary? :P

Re: Fredersdorf letters

[mildred_of_midgard]

Good question! Dutch Wikipedia says there are more than 25,000 letters to and from her (including correspondents like Fritz, Voltaire, and Lafayette) that have been digitized and "will" be made available online in 2017.

Okay, here they are. Ugh, the originals have been scanned. I mean, that's great, but that doesn't help us much. There does appear to be at least a partial diary and other documents pertaining to her Grand Tour. And poems, and reflections, and documents pertaining to her numismatic studies, and news items ("Charlotte Sophie was strongly involved in current political and military developments, ordering news reports, newspapers and periodicals from all over Europe"), and financial documents, and instructions to her staff, and inventories of her household goods, and basically a treasure trove, all scanned in a format inaccessible to us, although I'm sure wonderful for proper 18C scholars.

Oh, well. She seems fascinating. If I turn up translations or even translatable transcriptions of any of these, I will pass them on.

(if lacking in gaydar)

Hey, she knew enough to dress up as a man on Mission: Seduce Heinrich. Her gaydar is functioning better than FW's! (Which, as you pointed out, seems to be largely a well-functioning subconscious gaydar from the land of De Nile).

Re: Fredersdorf letters

[cahn]

Oooooh. I'll put it on my list of things to look at after Christmas, although I have soooooo much less historical context that I may not be a good person to read it. But if your brain isn't cooperating perhaps I could at least flag whether I think it might be interesting for you to read later? :) (Actually, what it's bound to do is give me loooooots of questions, which is a Good Thing now that I have two people whose purpose in life is to answer allllll my dumb History Questions who are nice enough to answer them! :D )

Re: Fredersdorf letters

[mildred_of_midgard]

Your list of post-Christmas things to read/watch is going to keep you busy until Easter, at this rate! ;)

I am touched by your offer (even though I know it's also self-serving, lol), and may take you up on it if I can't get my brain to cooperate by then (plus coax it through the items higher on my reading list, of which there are 6 in progress).

whose purpose in life is to answer allllll my dumb History Questions who are nice enough to answer them! :D )

Answering questions is pretty much my purpose in life these days! If I can do it by looking things up without having to read connected text, I'm golden. That's why the Katte family tree, complete with plague year references, happened, but Émilie hasn't yet.

Re: Fredersdorf letters

[mildred_of_midgard]

It turned out to be a very easy read, and my brain cooperated enough today that I managed to read it. I will do a write-up as time and health permit. Initial reactions are twofold:

ILUUUUU Émilie!!!! <33333 *massive hugs* You're the literal best!

Woooow, the author loves Voltaire and haaaates Fritz. It's not that I don't understand hating on Fritz: his death toll is high and the abusiveness in his personal life is undeniable. But it's such a one-sided picture: everything about Fritz's personality except the militarism is a lie he coldly fabricated as a trap for Voltaire, and Voltaire is 100% sympathetic, except when he's bothering Émilie, when he's acknowledged by the author to be mildly annoying.

I just...complexity, people. Fritz had more than one side to his personality, and so did Voltaire.

Emilie du Chatelet

[cahn]

I actually downloaded the kindle sample and thought she was fascinating. Does the book go into her physics at all?

I was thinking of reading this one while traveling:
https://www.amazon.com/Emilie-Du-Chatelet-Daring-Enlightenment/dp/0143112686/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?keywords=emilie+du+chatelet&qid=1576998193&sprefix=emilie+du+chat&sr=8-1

Re: Emilie du Chatelet

[mildred_of_midgard]

Only a little bit. Not at a technical level at all, but given that it's aimed at an audience that knows nothing about physics, you get at least some sense of what kinds of things she was working on.

I highly encourage reading about her! She's my fave now. <3