Frederick the Great, discussion post 6
Dec. 2nd, 2019 02:27 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cahn...I think we need another one (seriously, you guys, this is THE BEST) and I'd better make it now before I disappear into the wilds of music performance.
(also, as of this week there are two Frederician fics in the yuletide archive and eeeeeeeeeee)
(huh, only one of them is actually tagged with Frederick the Great even though two with Maria Theresia and Wilhelmine, eeeeeee this is awesome I CAN'T WAIT)
Frederick the Great masterpost
(also, as of this week there are two Frederician fics in the yuletide archive and eeeeeeeeeee)
(huh, only one of them is actually tagged with Frederick the Great even though two with Maria Theresia and Wilhelmine, eeeeeee this is awesome I CAN'T WAIT)
Frederick the Great masterpost
Re: Barbarina
Date: 2019-12-10 12:07 pm (UTC)You do have a point. In his defense, he hadn't met Voltaire in person before inviting him? Then again, as you say, he probably would have eloped with him later, too, so. Good point about the other serious relationships, too. He certainly shows a better taste in choosing for himself there than Heinrich (mostly).
Alas, google brought me nothing about Hotham Jr. in terms of what he was like, so he could have been anyone between Mr. Perfect and soemone Lehndorff was better off without. Can't help but notice, in any event, that he never came back for Lehndorff. And he hadn't been banished from Prussia, he could have. Perhaps not during the Seven-Years-War, though Britain was an ally, but later? Then again, it was four months. Hotham Jr. could have been a great guy and still be forgiven for not clinging to a four-months love affair years later.
There's also the question as to how much Fritz noticed about Lehndorff anyway. In what I've read, Lehndorff doesn't report a single one on one conversation, which I'm sure he would have if they'd ever had one, or at least he'd have written something like "the King graciously singled me out for conversation". Given the sheer amount of time Lehndorff spent hanging out with the younger brothers, he must have registered at least as something a bit more than "EC's chamberlain", but not much more.
Now, given that when Hotham arrives on the scene, Lehndorff is in a "Heinrich who?" mood and all "ignoring you now, see if I care, here's my new love!", I'm not surprised he didn't ask Heinrich to intercede for him with the King, but it's interesting he doesn't ask AW, either, and AW is the sole royal brother he's consistently on good terms with. So why not ask the Crown Prince to plead on your behalf with the King? Especially since even royal siblings (Ulrike, Wilhelmine during the three years of estrangement) ask AW for mediation, and that's his role in the family from toddlerdom on - when SD & Co. used him to ask FW for favours - until the Seven Years War; he's not likely to refuse without good reason, especially if he likes someone, and he did like Lehndorff. (If the direct German quotes from his last year of life are anything to go by, he called him "Lehndorfchen", i.e. the endearment form.)
Tentative speculation: as much as Lehndorff was in love with Hotham, maybe a part of him didn't want to go and thus subconsicously was holding him back?
Fritz and Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-10 10:05 pm (UTC)Au contraire! He first met Voltaire in 1740, in Cleves, on his trip west to Bayreuth, western Prussian domains, and Strasbourg, right after becoming king. Then Voltaire spent a couple weeks at his court before the Silesian invasion. Voltaire was annoyed because he didn't get an invitation to stay on permanently on that occasion, and people like Maupertuis and Algarotti did.
And then he visited again in 1743, to spy on Fritz for the French court (and Fritz apparently suspected this and kept him away from anywhere he might acquire any useful information). And during this time, they visited Wilhelmine together.
And then Fritz spent years trying to lure him back, and finally got him in 1750, after his mistress Émilie Du Châtelet died in childbirth in 1749. (Poor Émilie. :-( )
So not only had he met Voltaire, Fritz was already snarking about his personality, and he knew Voltaire was willing to spy on him (on behalf of his at-the-time French allies, but still). And Fritz's approach to wooing Voltaire to his court involved publishing a scurrilous poem in Voltaire's name, in hopes of pissing off the French court so that he would need to flee to Prussia for asylum. (Voltaire found out and was not too impressed by the underhandedness.) And between spying on each other and betraying each other, they wanted each other badly enough that 1750-1753 happened.
I can hear you saying, "Good lord." This sort of thing is what their correspondence translator meant by "They so thoroughly deserve each other"!
(You know, this would actually make good fic if I could write at all. Someday.)
But yes, aside from Voltaire, Fritz seems to have had pretty good judgment in selecting partners, even if not always the relationship skills to back it (re Algarotti especially).
Alas, google brought me nothing about Hotham Jr. in terms of what he was like, so he could have been anyone between Mr. Perfect and soemone Lehndorff was better off without.
Agreed. I admit I didn't dig too deeply, but I was looking for what I could find on him, and it wasn't much. It took a fair bit of digging just to work out that he was the nephew of the double marriage Hotham.
Hotham Jr. could have been a great guy and still be forgiven for not clinging to a four-months love affair years later.
Agree completely.
Tentative speculation: as much as Lehndorff was in love with Hotham, maybe a part of him didn't want to go and thus subconsicously was holding him back?
Could be! It's an interesting question that hadn't occurred to me.
Re: Fritz and Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-11 06:59 am (UTC)I'm with the translator -they thoroughly deserve each other.
ETA: Could you tell me more about Voltaire's particular beef with Maupertuis? /end of ETA
re: Hotham - Lehndorff Unplugged has more on that front, too. Including one time when he drags Hotham on one of his farewell visits (since Lehndorff thinks he's emigrating to England, he makes a goodbye tour through the Berlin salons), and wouldn't you know it, it's the one to Heinrich. Whom he's totally indifferent towards now. Bad luck, Prince! See what you'll be missing!
At which point I thought: mayyyyyynbe Hotham Jr. wasn't quite as clueless as Lehndorff, deduced new German boyfriend was just a bit hung up on this Prince Heinrich person, and later, once he's back in England, decided to leave things be. He doesn't write, either, or at least Lehndorff doesn't mention it, and the Unplugged version even mentions all the letters from his mother and siblings.
Re: Fritz and Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-11 07:07 am (UTC)(Mind you, from an individual liberty perspective, I totally think people should be allowed to make their own mistakes and risk disastrous relationships, just as Fritz and Voltaire did. But Fritz may be showing signs of a radar for "This is not serious relationship material" for everyone except Voltaire, about whom he was about as rational as Lehndorff and Lady Mary combined.)
Re: Fritz and Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-11 07:17 am (UTC)Apropos of that, this thread may afford you some brief amusement while you wait.
Re: Fritz and Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-16 10:41 pm (UTC)(well, okay, Fritz/Joe will always have a special place in my heart too)
Re: Fritz and Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-17 12:18 am (UTC)I mean, learning French and reading their 3 volumes of correspondence is a bit ambitious, but aggressively Google translating a bunch of letters: very likely.
They are an awesome crack pairing! Even 1926!Editor admits they're canon to at least some degree! (And aww, we never did get Fritz and Joe together.)
Re: Fritz and Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-21 08:57 pm (UTC)This is Fritz writing to Algarotti in 1749, when he's trying to lure Voltaire into a permanent position at his court:
It is a great pity that such a cowardly soul should be joined to such a great genius. He has all the lovableness and maliciousness of a monkey … I am not going to make a fuss because I need him for the study of French elocution. You may learn pretty things from a scoundrel. I want to know his French: how important is the moral issue? This man has found the means to combine opposites. You admire his mind at the same time as despising his character.
So, on the one hand, Fritz knew. He knew what he was getting himself in for. On the other hand, his protestation that he's only doing it for the French lessons...dude, your French and your poetry are bad enough that there are a number of other people you can get lessons from. You don't get this emotionally invested in a French teacher. You are Head. Over. Heels.
And then there's this quote, which is supposedly from a letter from Voltaire to his niece (Madame Denis' sister) which got translated into the memoirs. Now, I have the memoirs, both in English and in French, and neither of them has this passage. But the original letter may. Anyway. Voltaire has just accepted the position and arrived at Fritz's court. He writes:
I have been formally granted, my dear child, to the king of Prussia. My marriage has been celebrated; will it be a happy one? I have no idea. I could not stop myself from saying yes. The marriage would have happened anyway, after flirting for so many years. My heart beat nervously at the altar.
THEY WRITE THEMSELVES.
(I really need to see the original, though. If I could afford it, I'd love a subscription to E-Enlightenment, which supposedly has his full correspondence as well as that of a lot of other Enlightenment figures, such as Lady Mary, but...it's $40/mo, and even if I could download everything I needed in one month...not until I'm working again. Of course, then I'll have much less time for fandom, but, tradeoffs.)
Re: Fritz and Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-21 11:16 pm (UTC)Remember when
As centuries old conspiracy theories go, this is a new one, at least to me. I mean: how MT would have hired Voltaire to spread gossip about Fritz' sex life (as opposed to Voltaire doing it out of spite), I don't know, but I'm sure Voltaire would have taken the money if he was annoyed and broke enough at the time, principles be damned. It's just that given MT's general opinion on French freethinking philosphers suspected of denying god, he'd probably run once he saw an Austrian agent.
Well, just because Voltaire's ENTIRE LIFE is a crackfic, I have figured out how that would work! Immediately after the whole Frankfurt explosion, Fritz wrote to Marischal that Voltaire "has petitioned the queen of Hungary to enter into her service. She has sent an ingenious reply that there was room for Voltaire only on Mount Parnassus, and as that was not in Vienna, they couldn’t receive him in the manner due. On learning this the poet wrote to the king my uncle, asking him for a pension of £800 a year."
And yes, I have the actual letter where Fritz says this. Now, is Fritz necessarily a reliable source on Voltaire? No, but he's attributing a retort to MT that he calls ingenious, so maybe that's genuine. Or he's just trying to make it look like Voltaire is consorting with his enemies. But I like to think Voltaire asked her and she made that quip.
Voltaire *sitting on a street corner holding up a cardboard sign*: Will Satirize Fritz for Money
Voltaire *sotto voce*: Will also do it on my own time, unpaid.
Re: Fritz and Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-29 12:48 am (UTC)I am not even sure Fritz/Voltaire is a thing a fic could do justice to. It's one of those things where you're like, "but who could really
get more crackficimprove on canon?!"OMG LOL, I am laughing both at Voltaire and at Fritz saying something nice about MT. (Also: MT, I still love you lots!)
Re: Fritz and Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-29 12:51 am (UTC)MT was too smart to invite Voltaire to her court, but we--or at least I--still wish she had. :P Fritz wasn't, and look at all the comedy = tragedy + time that resulted!
Re: Fritz and Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-22 07:52 am (UTC)CITATION NEEDED. CITATION DESPERATELY NEEDED by gossipy sensationalists.
Also, the immediately following line, "Voltaire was willing to do a lot for his country, but Frederick was gay, and Voltaire was not. With a certain amount of deft footwork, he intended to remain that way," in combination with one of my earlier quotes, is hilarious.
"I'm not gay, I just want to marry Frederick."
Oh, man, rarely have I needed two citations as badly as I need the citations for these two quotes.
(Also, the implication that rape turns you gay is...hopefully unintentional, but very unfortunate wording.)
Re: Fritz and Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-29 12:48 am (UTC)Re: Fritz and Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-29 12:59 am (UTC)Heck, I still think it's possible FW expressed some interest in getting Silesia back, just not in the 1722 testament. It would help a great deal if this terrier scholar 1) knew German or even better French, 2) could read physical books.
Re: Fritz and Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-22 09:46 pm (UTC)[Fritz is speaking] "After having depicted Voltaire to you as wicked, faithless, and dangerous, I will say a word to you about those who formerly composed my literary society."
He was at this point, when a letter was brought in to him. He saw the seal and cried: "Ah, Catt, it is from Voltaire. He still remembers then that I exist." He opened and read or rather devoured with his eyes the letter.
And Wilhelmine is the one who's hopelessly fallen for him, riiiight.
Re: Barbarina
Date: 2019-12-16 10:38 pm (UTC)There's also the question as to how much Fritz noticed about Lehndorff anyway.
Heeeeee. I just really don't get the impression Fritz would notice someone like Lehndorff at all. I mean, I'm sure being EC's chamberlain didn't help, but I feel like Fritz went for the brainy and/or competent guys (and not just romantically speaking, although I was sort of thinking about that, but also in general) and... it's not that Lehndorff is incompetent, exactly, but his general cluelessness can't have helped! I bet he would have had a much better chance if he'd run EC's stuff so well that Fritz noticed... although with how much he didn't want to think about EC, that might have also been super difficult, so... Lehndorff may have just been in a no-win situation in terms of getting Fritz' notice!
Re: Barbarina
Date: 2019-12-17 03:21 am (UTC)Even though you are neglecting your true purpose in life, which is to encourage us in ours.I kind of agree re Fritz noticing Lehndorff, and I'm not sure even being hyper-competent would have helped (as you say, EC), but neglecting his job to crush on Heinrich and hang out with the divine trio was not calculated to appeal to Fritz!
Although, idk, it worked out for Marwitz. :P
Only as batman, though, where "charisma + pretty face" seem to have been the main job qualifications. Seriously, Fritz, your serious affairs are solid (unlike your brother's), but your batmen that I know of are Glosow (imprisoned for either attempted assassination or unauthorized use of your seal), Marwitz (Trenck-lite), and, uh, Trenck himself.
Lehndorff does not strike me as either hyper-comptent/brainy *or* charismatic bastard enough to catch Fritz's eye. Plus what
Re: Barbarina
Date: 2019-12-17 05:53 pm (UTC)Batmen: indeed, those seem to have been the qualifications. Though we can add "quick witted" (NOT the same as smart) and "raconteur" for Trenck and "witty" for Marwitz, so I suppose Fritz also liked his batmen to be able to be able to provide some banter?
Re: Barbarina
Date: 2019-12-17 07:31 pm (UTC)Quick-wittedness was moreover a general qualification for Fritz being willing to give you the time of day, not just batmen, at least according to Catt (whom I have no reason to disbelieve), and Catt also reports that Fritz went by first impressions. If he decided you were quick-witted when you met, you were quick-witted forever. If not, you had little to no chance of changing his mind. So Lehndorff I think was SOL from the beginning.
If Catt's right, said line-up of batmen must have each been having a good day when they met him and got the job offer. (Catt's own job offer, as you may recall, came after a single incognito meeting. I've also been impressed just how quickly Fritz started confiding in Catt and telling him things, though it's possible the "Nobody else knows this, only you, my sole confidant" lines Fritz keeps feeding him are not strictly true? Actually, come to think of it, it wouldn't surprise me if it were paranoid Fritz testing him. Or a distortion of memory due to Catt's memoirs being written well after the fact.)
I don't think Lehndorff would have wanted to miss those fifty years of it
That's very true. Poor Lehndorff, caught between the brothers.
Re: Barbarina
Date: 2019-12-18 07:31 am (UTC)My money is on the later. Though you mentioned diaries - do they still exist? The golden standard there is my guy Boswell, since we do have his diaries to compare with the way he used them as material in his Life of Johnson. Which was by no means arbitrary.
Anyway, when famous celebrity X tells someone "only you know this/you're my only confidant" in their memoirs, I tend to be sceptical unless there's contemporary back up material. Everyone likes to feel special. Still, as far as I know no other memoirist claims Fritz talked to him about Katte's death and Küstrin - or is there one? So maybe Henri de Catt was special.