cahn | Frederick the Great, discussion post 6

...I think we need another one (seriously, you guys, this is THE BEST) and I'd better make it now before I disappear into the wilds of music performance.

(also, as of this week there are two Frederician fics in the yuletide archive and eeeeeeeeeee)
(huh, only one of them is actually tagged with Frederick the Great even though two with Maria Theresia and Wilhelmine, eeeeeee this is awesome I CAN'T WAIT)

Frederick the Great masterpost

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only | Expand All

From:

selenak

You do such good character voices. (Trenck's "protesting too much" was brilliant!)

Thank you. :) Mind you, I had assistance from Trenck himself, who protests a lot of how innocent and naive he was. Well, his description of the second Silesian War was just poor poor Fritz gallantly wanting to save the poor robbed of his Homeland Karl Abrecht of Wittelsbach certainly is… innocent… yeah.

Incidentally, so what do you think we have here? Another case of Fritz lusting after someone who has something with one of his younger siblings? Fritz sincerely thinks Trenck sold him out to the Austrians despite being until then a favored and trusted officer? Fritz jumps on that excuse? Trenck, despite having a sweet deal going on in Prussia, DID spy for the Austrians? I certainly think it's possible; he protests such an awful lot, he was young and adrenaline addicted, that's a good condition for doing stupid things. Also all this "you owe me!" insistence to the Habsburgs later - what exactly did they owe him, if he wasn't spying? Those few years of service between Glatz and Danzig didn't involve any great efforts, other than going to Russia and having another affair.

I do suspect one reason why Fritz was a very bad enlightened monarch and didn't even give him a proper trial - which even FW did for Katte, only to override the sentence, to be sure, but he did give him a trial first - was because he thought Trenck the bragger wouldn't be able to resist bringing up Amalie. And regardless of how much or little Fritz felt for his youngest sister at that point, that would have wrecked her marriage chances for good. That she would never marry at all was not something anyone could have foreseen back then. Though it's interesting that Fritz never forced her to. Question: If Wilhelmine hadn't already been married when FW died, would Fritz have married her off? Or would the combination of her being in her early 30s - and thus for her contemporaries no longer desirable marriage material, though the occasional match for royal women at that age did still happen - and her being his favourite sister have meant a life time in Prussia?

Mighty fortresses are useful for when you want to keep anyone from hurting your kid, and also for when you want to keep them from rescuing your kid while you hurt him.

They're also useable for one's nieces-in-law. Was somewhat stunned to discover this bit from the fallout of FW2's first marriage, you know, the one where Fritz briefly discovers his inner feminist. To recapitulate:

Young future FW2: *in love with Wilhelmine Encke, daughter of trumpetter*
Fritz: You're the crown prince, so of course I ridicule you in public and bully you. And marry you off to a Braunschweig girl. Your aunt Charlotte's daughter Elisabeth is even beautiful and spirited, so consider yourself lucky.

FW 2 & Elisabeth: *dislike on sight*

FW2: *cheats, continues affair with Wilhelmine Encke*

Elisabeth: *cheats, has affairs with various officers because fuck that, she's not going to take this lying down like her precedessors as crown princess*

Friederike, baby of uncertain paternity: *is born

Elisabeth: *pregnant again*

Heinrich: *throws a mask ball*

Courtier to future FW during said masked ball, i.e. at a public occasion": So, your wife? Total ho!

FW: Uncle Fritz, watch me show of the education you gave me. "Caesar's wife must be above suspicion. I am sadly forced to ask you to allow me to divorce my wife.

Fritz: Dear Charlotte, it's all our idiot nephew's fault for neglecting his wife's charms, I mean, what kind of royal bastard does that to his wife? But anyway. Literal bastards are a no go for the line of succession, so divorce it'll have to be. Mind taking your daughter back?

Charlotte: I do mind. She's disgraced me and my family. Do with her what you want, I am not taking her back.

(Me: Ooookay. Definitely your parents' daughter here, Charlotte.)

Fritz: Küstrin comes to mind for some reason. Elisabeth, sorry, I actually like you, but you're going to spend some months there to cool off. Then you're allowed to go to Stettin and retire to a country mansion, but you'll have to stay there. Also, Louise is going to raise your kid Friederike. You can keep the other one.

Elisabeth: *has miscarriage in Küstrin, then goes off to Stettin*

*flash forward to FW2 ascending to the throne*

FW2: Dear Liz, seeing as you are the mother of my eldest daughter and I'm no longer married to you but to another wife I didn't want, I think enough is enough. You can come to the capital if you like. Or go home to Braunschweig if you want.

Elisabeth: Thanks but no thanks. I like it here in Stettin. As for Braunschweig, when I eventually die at 92, outliving you all, there will be a clause in my Last Will stating that under no circumstances is my dead body going to lie among that lot, because fuck you, Mom, for not taking me back. Hohenzollern are the worst, forever and ever.

Diana Gabaldon: have read the first of those novels, know who she is, have even seen her in person at a Bavarian book festival.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Incidentally, so what do you think we have here?

Ahahaha, I'm flattered that you think I have anything to contribute, just like I'm flattered you thought I could make sense of the Marwitz letters.

I agree it's far from impossible that Trenck might have been up to *something* for the Austrians. He's always given off shady vibes for me, but, you know, innocent until proven guilty.

I kinda doubt it was *just* Fritz lusting after him. I feel like he had grounds of suspicion (if only in his own head) for Amalie, spying, or both, to get that kind of reaction. But who knows?

*throws up hands*

he thought Trenck the bragger wouldn't be able to resist bringing up Amalie. And regardless of how much or little Fritz felt for his youngest sister at that point, that would have wrecked her marriage chances for good.

This makes perfect sense.

Question: If Wilhelmine hadn't already been married when FW died, would Fritz have married her off?

Remember when we we were discussing the "FW retires to a religious hermit life" AU? And my gut reaction was "I have to imagine step 1 is: Fritz summons Wilhelmine to court for Very Important Reasons and just never lets her go again"? That's still my gut reaction to what happens if Wilhelmine is unmarried when Fritz inherits at whatever age. My guess is Wilhelmine, honorary man that she is, falls into the category of beloved friends who he will be very unhappy about if they start showing interest in being married to anyone except *him*. I mean, unless you think there's a political alliance that Fritz both could have gotten through her and would have wanted badly enough...he *could* be ruthless as king and override his personal wishes. But I think it would take a lot. And as you say, 30+ year-old Wilhelmine doesn't have kings falling all over themselves for her face or her childbearing prospects. I say Fritz keeps her.

FW: Uncle Fritz, watch me show of the education you gave me. "Caesar's wife must be above suspicion."

Fritz: Dear Charlotte, it's all our idiot nephew's fault for neglecting his wife's charms, I mean, what kind of royal bastard does that to his wife?

Elisabeth: fuck you, Mom, for not taking me back. Hohenzollern are the worst, forever and ever.

+1

From:

selenak

...and now that I'm reading Lehndorf's diary, I just came across an entry where he's all "our princes are the best! I mean, the Saxons are dumb as nails, Wüttemberg, eh, Palatinate, haven't produced anything interesting in the last century, Braunschweigs I guess I have so say are alright, seeing whom I'm nominally working for, but I immediately add saying they're alright because they're so closely related to ours that you can't judge them as a separate entity, but how wonderful,how superior to all other Germans are the Hohenzollerns!"

Look, I know you've got it bad for Heinrich, Lehndorf, and you're still hoping Fritz will promote you from his wife's Hhousehold into his own, but SERIOUSLY? That's patriotism gone too far.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

I mean, *I* always thought the Hohenzollerns were the best, from my safe popcorn-munching remove, but if you have to *live* with them? Hell no, that's crazy talk.

It's like that ancient ~~Chinese~~ German curse goes: may you live with an interesting family.

(Wikipedia tells me it's not actually Chinese.)

ETA: Oh, and in case it's not obvious to

cahn (forgive me if it is), "Braunschweig" is "Brunswick" in English.

Edited Date: 2019-12-05 07:30 am (UTC)

From:

selenak

may you live with an interesting family.

Precisely. so, when EC finally seems to lose her patience and reminds Lehnsdorff that his job description isn't "crushing on Prince Heinrich" or "hanging out with the divine trio" and he's supposed to attend her more, and he's mentally all "yeah, but you're boring!", I on the one hand can see where he's coming from: EC is bound to be more dull than Hohenzollern drama. And I know whom I'd rather read about if I must choose. But on the other hand: for God's sake and for the sake of your emotional and mental health, Lehnsdorff, treasure what you have! EC is nice! It's easy money!

(Of course, it doesn't help that when he took the job he did so under the delusion he'd see lots of the King whom he's very curious about and wants to serve directly. Naturally, then he has to find out that working for the Queen is a guarantee to see as little of the King as possible.)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Ahahahaha, Lehndorff, I get you. But there is a difference between "these are the most interesting princes" and "these are the best princes and why aren't the others more like them."

From:

cahn

Not obvious, thank you!

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Also, Lehndorff fell in love with an English aristocrat, Sir. Charles Hotham, and wanted to join him in England. But as a Prussian, he had to ask the King's permission to leave the country. Fritz said no. "I cry, and I cry, and I cry," Lehndorff writes. No reason given for the refusal, but I think we all know the real reason is: "If *I* can't go to England with my lover, *nobody* gets to go to England with their lover."

So I knew the name Hotham was ringing a bell, and I thought I recognized it from the English double marriage negotiations. Sure enough, it was Sir Charles Hotham, 5th Baronet of Scorborough, who makes so many appearances in Wilhelmine's memoirs as the English envoy, and who in the end fails to convince FW to let Fritz and Wilhelmine to marry their cousins. Judging by the dates, Lehndorff's Sir Charles Hotham must have been the 8th baronet, the nephew of the 5th, bearing the same name.

Oh, Fritz.

From:

selenak

:( Yeah, this.

On a more cheerful note, must share this latest detail: remember when I mentioned Wilhelmine had composed an opera version of Voltaire's play Semiramis (that he shopped around for a while before it could get staged)? What the content was?

Now, see below, in 1753, SD got the premiere performance of her son's opera "Sulla" for her Birthday. In 1754... she gets Wilhelmine's "Semiramis".

Writes Lehndorff: "What a strange choice for a birthday celebration. The opening image is that of a tomb, and it is about a son murdering his mother in revenge."

Fritz uses his younger siblings for self therapy. Wilhelmine clearly uses operas. That is so marvellously passive-aggressive, I have no words. And of course lost on Lehnsdorff entirely.

From:

cahn

HAHAHAHA omg that is amazing, I am totally dying at the opera-for-self-therapy-and-passive-aggressive-insulting. And also at the totally oblivious narrator.

Re: Lehndorff

From:

selenak - Date: 2019-12-06 12:38 pm (UTC) - Expand

From:

cahn

I say Fritz keeps her.

...I agree with this totally.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Letting people go: not Fritz's strong point. I mean, kicking them to the curb, yes. But letting them out of arm's reach when he still wants them? That's in Interpersonal Relations 102, which he never even got through the 101 course.

From:

cahn

Mind you, I had assistance from Trenck himself

Gonna take this as an in to reply to your writeup on Trenck last post:

Woooooow. First, that is an amazing writeup. Second, Trenck sounds like a piece of work. ...I don't mean that as a total diss, I mean, I can totally imagine him being someone you really wanted to have at your party, lol ~~unless you were a woman whom he's telling stories about~~

An Unmarried Lady Of The Highest Rank whom I, being a gentleman, will not identify by name until volume 3 gets published, but we're talking Highest Family here, wink, nudge. I scored!

OMG.

I, a naive innocent, believed it was cousinly feeling that made him make me his heir, but really, it was because he knew Fritz would never believe I was innocent if I accepted the heritage!

Wait, so, was this actually the case?

but hey! Did anything so far make you think I have common sense?

HAHAHAHAHAH

also: the surprise reveal of AMALIE! eeeee

But in 2008, they found a letter from me to her, written in 1787, the year of her death, which "at least indicates great familiarity", which is their way of phrasing I totally scored!

LOL! Now I want fic where everyone we're talking about has hilarious Opinions about what historians say (I guess this is the reincarnation fic mildred is writing)

From:

selenak

Trenck: definitely great as the life of the party, less so as someone you want to have an affair with. Mind you, supposedly he wrote a pamphlet to comment on Mirabeau's trashy tell all, though whether to support or counter Mirabeau's claims on the royal family, his wiki entry doesn't say. (And the Gutenberg edition of his memoirs don't, either.)

Wait, so, was this actually the case?

Over to Mildred. I have no idea whether or not the fact that Prussian Trenck became Austrian Trenck's universal heir settled his guilt in Fritz' eyes. Trenck himself thinks so, because he also claims he later found out his one year in Glatz was just supposed to be some loyalty test from Fritz and if he hadn't escaped and gone to Vienna then, he totally would have been released just a few days later and reinstated. He does not tell us who exactly told him this Fritzian plan.

As you might guess, Trenck/Amalie proved irresistable to 19th century novelist and 20 century scriptwriters. The latest of many efforts is called "Zwei Herzen gegen die Krone" - "Two hearts against a crown" - and no, I haven't watched it, but the internet tells me that here, the two even get a happy ending as Fritz relents at the end and allows Amalie to leave Prussia with Trenck.

...somehow the fictional Amalie/Friedemann subplot in "Mein Name ist Bach" complete with Fritz/Friedemann UST scene strikes me as more realistic...

From:

mildred_of_midgard

I, a naive innocent, believed it was cousinly feeling that made him make me his heir, but really, it was because he knew Fritz would never believe I was innocent if I accepted the heritage!

Wait, so, was this actually the case?

Over to Mildred. I have no idea whether or not the fact that Prussian Trenck became Austrian Trenck's universal heir settled his guilt in Fritz' eyes.

If we're asking what Fritz thought, I can speculate. If we're asking what the Trencks were up to, LOLOLOL I have no idea, no one I know of has any idea. Those two are such shady characters. I had to read up on Austrian Trenck as part of research for my fic set at Soor, the battle where Austrian Trenck was busy plundering Fritz's camp instead of fighting, was accused of letting Fritz escape capture, and returned Prussian cousin Trenck's horses, thus leading to suspicions that Austrian Trenck was working for the Prussians and that Prussian Trenck was working for the Austrians, omg, you guys.

With them, it really becomes a question of what you should attribute to malice and what to incompetence. Austrian Trenck keeps giving things to Prussian Trenck. Because Austrian Trenck has Prussian sympathies? Because he's trying to implicate Prussian Trenck as an Austrian spy? Because he's an idiot? Neither of these two seems to have any common sense at all, which is how they both end up in and out of prisons and death sentences.

As for what Fritz thought, honestly, I'm sure it didn't help, but my gut instinct is that it was a drop in the bucket of reasons Fritz had for suspecting this guy of, like, everything that had ever happened in the history of ever. Fritz is ready to believe the worst to begin with, and this guy gives off vibes even to me, and god help him if Fritz *had* been attracted to him, because hell hath no fury, and...yeah.

...somehow the fictional Amalie/Friedemann subplot in "Mein Name ist Bach" complete with Fritz/Friedemann UST scene strikes me as more realistic...

Somehow I agree. "You're always saying in your country everyone has freedom of the penis, but by 'everyone' you mean 'you'."

From:

selenak

Neither of these two seems to have any common sense at all, which is how they both end up in and out of prisons and death sentences.

No kidding. It strikes me as a not so minor miracle that Prussian Trenck lived long enough to get himself beheaded by French Revolutionaries after name dropping how MT personally got him out of prison.

Austrian Trenck made it into the movies as well, btw, though not as often as Prussia Trenck. Otoh, Austrian Trenck's movie has him played by the (very unAustrian and NorthGerman) Hans Albers, the male sex symbol of his day, so there was that.

How famous was Prussian Trenck for his shenanigans and his memoirs (which, as I'll remind you, he started publishing during the last years of Fritz' life), though? So famous that Lorenzo da Ponte, in his memoirs half a century later, thinks he can throw shade at Casanova by (wrongly) claiming Casanova shamelessly ripped off Trenck's story and even titled his memoirs "The Second Trenck".

(DaPonte had a (one sided) competitive thing going on with Casanova in general, more on Da Ponte below because it belongs in the Mozart/Salieri thread.)

Basically the one thing Prussian Trenck undoubtedly achieved was making later 17th century readers, out of and in Prussia, going "OMG! What a gallant fellow! How could Fritz be so heartless? And that's totally one of the sisters, amirite?" Which is probably what FW2 gave him the pension for, along with feeling for the guy because those years chained to a wall in Magdeburg truly do sound horrid.) (I guess that's why MT asked for his release as part of the peace talks.)

One more Trenck thing: he hadn't completely given up on his idea of getting money out of the Habsburgs that did not come in the shape of a rich widow by the time he settled down in Aachen and got married. He then tried to pull this one:

Trenck: Dear Joseph, congratulations on your mother's death and finally achieved single rule, your majesty! Now, it just so happens I've become a Dad, and you know what I've decided my boy will be called? JOSEPH! Of course, you'll totally become his godfather and send appropriate gifts and MONEY on a regular basis, right?

Joseph: Dear Baron Trenck, congratulations on the birth of your son, thanks for the unasked for honor of naming him after me. I wish you two all the best for the future. Yours not at all, Joseph.

Trenck: ...and that, dear readers, was that from Joseph. WHAT A HEARTLESS BASTARD!

From:

cahn

OMG, TRENCK. That is awesome. Where by "awesome" I mean WTF, Trenck!

Re: Trenck affair, continued

From:

selenak - Date: 2019-12-10 01:10 pm (UTC) - Expand

From:

selenak

Okay, have asked YouTube, and it seems there's also a five part straightforward tv adaption of Trenck's bestselling memoirs which is unknown to me. Enjoy the trailer, which speaks for itself even in German:

They are so going for a sibling love triangle in this one!

ETA: And a Trenck Music vid based on "Zwei Herzen gegen eine Krone" (Two hearts against a Crown) (That one is straight, by contrast.)

Not to be outdone, Austrian Trenck got his own open air theatre Festival play with trailer:

Trenck the Pandur trailer - theatre edition

And there's the old black and White movie:

Trenck the Pandur trailer - Hans Albers Edition (co-starring MT in the later section)

Edited Date: 2019-12-07 10:53 am (UTC)

From:

From:

mildred_of_midgard - Date: 2019-12-30 02:06 am (UTC) - Expand

From:

cahn

Hahahaha, I meant what were the Trencks up to. I guess it seems pretty in-character that no one knows because they're so crazy!

From:

mildred_of_midgard

LOL! Now I want fic where everyone we're talking about has hilarious Opinions about what historians say (I guess this is the reincarnation fic mildred is writing)

Lol, "writing" is overstating it a bit. "Imagining" might be more accurate, but Fritz definitely has *opinions*. Katte is just like, "EEEEE I made it into a big-name opera where I'm the hero! :D :D :D Be quiet, Fritz, I know this kind of thing happens to you all the time. Don't rain on my parade."

From:

cahn

lol, Rodrigo is not actually the hero of the opera, everyone just thinks he is. There are a lot of tenors who would take issue to that!

(Although I am on the mailing list for the LA Opera, and when Domingo played Rodrigo last year they sent out email blasts what seemed like every week where Domingo's name was in large flashy font and you could maybe sometimes see Carlo's name in much smaller font, but often not at all. Anyone who didn't know the opera would totally think Rodrigo was the star!)

~~Rodrigo totally is the star~~

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Lol, I KNOW that--despite my otherwise complete lack of musical knowledge, you have successfully conveyed to me that people think of him as the real protagonist even though he's not the official one, and that's what I'm getting at with Katte being all gleeful and Fritz snarking. Katte of all people is *totally* going to home in on Rodrigo as the real hero and maintain that interpretation against all comers. :-PPP

Re: Trenck affair, continued

From:

cahn - Date: 2019-12-16 10:42 pm (UTC) - Expand

From:

cahn

This is wonderful. Also batshit insane, as par for the course.

Fritz: Dear Charlotte, it's all our idiot nephew's fault for neglecting his wife's charms, I mean, what kind of royal bastard does that to his wife? But anyway.

Oh Fritz. *facepalm*

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Fritz from the beyond: Look, people. My wife has no charms! And I'm not that way inclined anyway. Nephew has no such excuse.

Fritz: *goes back to the beyond*