In which I have a lot of messy feelings about Plácido Domingo and Verdi and tenors

[cahn]

-I absolutely think Domingo has been sexually harassing women

-I think it was absolutely the right decision that he not be at the Met anymore

-he's an amazing artist and to be honest I'm sad he won't be at the Met anymore even if I fully support that decision

-wtf Gelb for being all not-believing for frankly bizarre reasons (most of the complaints were anonymous? AP isn't reputable media? WHAT)

-it is the lowest of low bars but it was way more classy of Domingo to resign from LA Opera than James Levine's "I will sue everyone in sight" response

-(let me say I do not mean this as an excuse at ALL) I do kinda feel like he was set up for failure, by which I mean, the guy's career involved a whole heck of a lot of singing Verdi tenors -- they ARE ALMOST ALL SEXUAL HARASSERS (*) who are also considered the heroes, and not only does the narrative almost never call them out for their sexual harassment, indeed it usually celebrates them for being the hero. And it's not even like saying the culture is a culture of harassment, it's saying that your job is literally to glorify it! Honestly, it's surprising to me that all Verdian tenors aren't awful to women -- and of course we're seeing more and more that they are (see also the recent news about Vittorio Grigolo)

-I imagine it's not nearly as bad a problem with Verdian baritones and violence, if it's a problem at all, because that violence is always called out by the narrative even when our sympathies are with it (hiiiiii Renato)

-I suspect that if, for example, Jonas Kaufmann isn't a sexual harasser (I really hope he's not), that it may partially be because he's made a career out of interpretations where the interpretation subtext does the job of calling out the tenor for his harassment (e.g., his twitchy and half-insane Don Carlo).

-I don't know what the solution is, because obviously I ADORE Verdi and I don't want people to stop doing Verdi, nor do I think it's a tenable solution for all Verdi tenors to always be twitchy

-on the other hand, it's probably possible to generally stage things as a little less... leaning on the heroic sexual harassment

-(*) In related news, I realized a couple of weeks ago that Forza is a weird opera for me to listen to because the tenor comes on and my visceral reaction has been conditioned to be OH NO TENOR UGH and then my conscious brain kicks in and is all, oh, no, Don Alvaro is awesome and respectful of everyone! it's the baritone in this one who is the whiny awful harasser! and my visceral hindbrain is all WHAT THAT DOES NOT COMPUTE

Comments

[zdenka]

I've been having so many mixed feelings about it too, ever since I heard the news. I believe it's true, and I'm sad and angry and disappointed, and I think he should suffer consequences. I also have complicated feelings because he was on the first opera recordings I ever owned, and I admired him as a singer and an actor and he was one of the people who was really formative to how I think about opera and to an extent how I perform music myself. He was also the only tenor I've seen who could convince me that Calaf isn't awful ( . . . I may not be able to watch Turandot at all now). Obviously my feelings are less important than those of the women he harassed and anyone else who has been directly affected by it. But they are still feelings which I have, and it's not hurting anyone if I express them here.

That said, I'm kind of sceptical that performing Verdi tenor roles leads to someone becoming a sexual harasser. I would believe that being a superstar and lionized and admired can lead to attitudes which can make some people feel entitled to treat others as less than human, and to a general attitude that lets them get away with it. (It's not only opera stars, but sports stars, movie directors, anyone who is used to being admired and looked up to and getting away with bad behavior.) But an actor isn't the role they play, and any sane person knows how to make that separation between things their character does onstage and things they do offstage.

[cahn]

:( Yeah, as I've been going through this mad opera phase this last year he has been one of the singers who has been instrumental in how I thought about various operas and characters (and as this news broke I was going through this phase of listening on Spotify to a bunch of random early Verdi he did with Milnes and Caballe, all of which is brilliant)(not related to anything, I love Milnes so much!!), and none of this changes that he is a consummate performer and singer and I have always really enjoyed his work :( And, of course, none of this changes what he did, either.

Ha, I should not post late at night -- I don't really mean exactly that performing Verdi (and it's not just Verdi, of course -- Puccini (gah, Calaf really is awful), and all that French opera, but at this point I know a lot more about Verdi) makes someone a sexual harasser, and of course you are right that being a superstar and admired is the main thing going on here. And I agree an actor isn't the role. (otherwise who could ever play Don Giovanni? :) )

But I also feel like -- and I may be off base here because I am piecing this together from somewhat random stories and comments -- I get the feeling that, except for this, Domingo was generally considered (and probably considers himself) a reasonably nice guy, which is part of this whole weird disconnect. And in all these opera stories sexual harassers are portrayed as reasonably nice guys and even heroes, and I could see those lines getting blurred in your head if the stories you're telling are all stories where it's totally OK to do stuff like that and no one objects or thinks it's bad. Does that kind of make sense? I don't mean it as an excuse at all, just sort of thinking through the culture. And maybe I'm totally wrong.

[nineveh_uk]

It makes sense to me, but I think I'd ascribe it to wider culture rather than opera. I'm sure that Domingo was and is otherwise considered a nice guy, lots of sexual harassers are. For one thing, to get into situations when one can harass it's a big help to be personable and able to talk to people without giving off radioactive danger vibes, but also, people compartmentalise and justify what we do. People who steal from their employers tell themselves that they deserve it. Habitual drink drivers tell themselves that they are good drivers and the laws are ridiculous. Harassers do the same, and though Verdi isn't saying it's bad, nor are the people and culture around it, because the narrative has so very much not been that it's a serious thing, and AFAIK know that's very much been the case in theatre and the entertainment world. And once some is established, then even if it is kind of known, well, it's just them, who would ruin a brilliant career over such a minor thing?

Seconds the love for Milnes. My favourite Scarpia.

[cahn]

*nods* Yes, I agree that's the most important thing. Although I do think that culture and the artistic stories that are told and how they're chosen to be told can be all mixed up together -- like in that ROH Nozze, Keenlyside and Harvey were definitely playing up the middle-aged creep vibes in a way that I feel like I haven't seen before; it felt like a very post-#MeToo kind of framing. But of course, as you're saying, that's wider culture influencing the story, rather than the other way around.

ETA: I LOVE Milnes' Scarpia <3

[zdenka]

Don't worry, I don't think you're excusing them. I just think that the messages from the culture that someone is living in every day are a lot more influential than messages from 19th-century opera, even if those messages sometimes overlap (because some things have changed, fortunately, but some really haven't). Like, you're in rehearsal or performances for a few hours, compared to all the rest of life. And as someone who's been in plenty of stage performances myself, though just at an amateur level, I find it hard to believe that someone could really start mixing up themself and their roles. Maybe indirectly, like if someone plays a hot jerk on stage and gets admiring fans because of that . . . but I can't believe that playing the role of a bad person is inherently dangerous. That seems like magical thinking to me. And I've never heard that baritones who play Don Giovanni are more likely to be sexual harassers in real life.

I agree with what nineveh_uk said.

[cahn]

*nods* That makes sense. And I definitely agree with you about Don Giovanni :) I do think that the culture and the stories that are told (and the way they are chosen to be told) can be all mixed up together.

[thistleingrey]

For the last one, heh, like the alto having a successful romance?

[cahn]

Heeeee. Yes, like that! Although I can't even think of any opera, offhand, where the alto/mezzo had a successful romance! I guess in Figaro Marcellina is often played by a mezzo, but does that even count? :)

[nineveh_uk]

Octavian :-)

[cahn]

I have to watch this!! I've been neglecting Strauss (the only one I've seen so far is Arabella, which I really liked).

[zdenka]

Berlioz's Beatrice et Benedict! Benedick is a tenor, Beatrice a mezzo, and the opera ends happily.

In Verdi's Nabucco, the tenor's love interest, Fenena, is a mezzo -- the soprano Abigaile is a villain and loves the tenor unrequitedly!

I'm not sure I'd call Sesto's romance in Clemenza successful, but Annio is also a mezzo or alto and he winds up happily with Servilia. Though I'm not sure it counts if the role was originally written for castrato.

[zdenka]

Oh, and though W.S. Gilbert was notoriously unkind to the alto characters, there are several who wind up happily paired at the end. Off the top of my head there's Lady Sangazure in The Sorcerer, Lady Sophy in Utopia Ltd., and the Fairy Queen in Iolanthe.

[cahn]

...I have gotten off-track in listening to / watching more G&S, I need to get back to that.

It's not textual, and my memory might be off, but I'm pretty sure the Kevin Kline Pirates movie has Ruth getting together with the Pirate King at the end (either that or the production I saw in college did that, or both), so that's always been my headcanon :)

[zdenka]

It's definitely a valid interpretation!

[shewhostaples]

Hannah in Ruddigore; Lady Jane gets a duke in Patience!

And Gilbert might not have liked them much, but Sullivan gave them some glorious music. (I mean, an alto part existing at all is an advance on a lot of grand opera :-/)

ETA: and back on the subject of awful tenors, both Alexis and Colonel Fairfax are particularly unpleasant specimens.

[cahn]

Ahhhhh I also forgot about Lady Jane! I haven't watched Ruddigore yet. Looking forward to it, though :D

[cahn]

I forgot about Fenena, how did I forget about her?! <3

I didn't even know Berlioz wrote an opera! That sounds like a lot of fun.

(I will totally count Annio. But not Sesto :P )

[zdenka]

Berlioz wrote multiple operas! If you have the free time (it's a long opera), Les Troyens (The Trojans) is pretty cool. It's based on the parts of the Aeneid about the Fall of Troy and the Dido and Aeneas love affair.

Beatrice et Benedict is really delightful and I highly recommend it. It cuts out all the "Claudio accusing Hero of infidelity" plot, so it's mostly Beatrice and Benedick shenanigans with Hero and Claudio getting peacefully married in the background.

He also wrote a Faust opera that's less famous than Gounod's, and Benvenuto Cellini, and I forget what else.

(Fair enough! Sesto and Vitellia are a disaster.)

[iberiandoctor]

(Okay, so, today I was coincidentally at a lunch with a Japanese mezzo-soprano who has recently shared the stage with Domingo, and she loudly voiced her support of him, and suggested that much of the criticism was due to cultural misunderstandings. And of course being an older and celebrated European superstar doesn't at all give you licence to harass -- or manhandle! -- women who more often than not would be younger and less powerful and able to say or do anything about it, but at the same time I didn't feel it was my place to run down her views or her lived experience with the man. Apparently, he is headed out to this part of the world next year, with Renee Fleming, no less.)

I'm with you on most of this, of course, save for (1) Gelb and (2) the Verdi staging factor. On (1), as an employment lawyer, I am sympathetic with the view that you don't +always+ suspend the subject pending the outcome of the investigation -- due process does mean innocent until proven guilty -- and the decision should be based on whether the suspension would do the least harm in the circumstances, as opposed to whether you feel there's a prima facie case or not. In these circumstances, suspending early might have been a better least-harm decision than waiting for a week before opening night; in the case of, say, a 2020 performance, it might be better to wait until the outcome before making any moves.

On (2), of course the harassing content of the source material shouldn't inform actual RL offstage behaviour, but I do think there's something to be said for your theory that in a celebrated, long-standing medium where writers write and singers sing material that aggrandizes heroic sexual harassment, a culture is fostered where sexually aggressive and harassing conduct is normalised offstage as well as on. Doesn't excuse things, obviously, but it's entirely understandable, and possibly this is what my new opera singer friend was alluding to.

On Kaufmann, I sincerely hope that he's not a harasser, it would be most upsetting to learn otherwise!

[cahn]

(Huh, that's really interesting.)

Yeah, that makes sense. I went back and checked what I could find of the exact wording Gelb used, and at least in this article the actual statement from the Met follows pretty closely what you say. (The paraphrased bits from the article about "downplaying allegations... since all but two of the complaints were anonymous" and "reputable media" are what I remembered when I wrote the post -- and I still think those if true are lame -- but looking back it's not clear that Gelb actually said that. (It's not clear he didn't, but I am now sufficiently suspicious of media in general that I would prefer an actual quotation.)

in a celebrated, long-standing medium where writers write and singers sing material that aggrandizes heroic sexual harassment, a culture is fostered where sexually aggressive and harassing conduct is normalised offstage as well as on.

Yes! This is what I was trying to say! Only you said it much better :P

I really hope that no other singer I really love is a harasser *sigh*

[iberiandoctor]

On Gelb and investigations generally, what I will say is, things tend to start either from an anonymous whistleblowing email, or a formal complaint lodged with HR with full licence and registration etc etc. Serious investigations ought to ensue regardless of whether it is the former case or the latter, and any suggestion otherwise, as per the article you cite, should be squashed immediately.

That said, of course it is much much easier to come to a conclusion in the investigation if you can get someone to come forward and give evidence, rather than if all you have is an amorphous complaint that can’t be verified — before any employer suspends or sacks an employee, there needs to be reasonable basis that will hold up in a court of law (eg in case the employee sues for wrongful dismissal or defamation). All the more so because labour laws in other parts of the world (eg Europe, where I think Domingo still had a couple of un-terminated gigs?) are much more onerous than in New York, which I gather is an at-will state where you have more leeway to terminate/discipline (disclaimer: IANA US-qualified attorney). So possibly this nuance is what Gelb was trying to refer to, and the article gave it a sensationalist adverse slant.

Not sure if this makes you feel any better about Gelb, or the Met, or this whole sorry mess! I hope so, there’s been enough sadface in the opera world and fandom over this :(

Re: the heroic-sexual-harassment aggrandising milieu of opera, I actually thiiiink this is what Japanese mezzo was trying to say? She kept saying, “It’s opera! It’s cultural! And he’s European, you know?” Possibly something was lost in translation. She was SO lovely, though, and she said my French accent was good, so I’m predisposed to thinking kindly of her <3

[cahn]

*nods* Yeah, I do wonder now whether Gelb was just trying to say what you are saying and either it came out wrong or someone heard it and assumed the adverse slant, or whether he actually did mean exactly what the article said. I suppose it's possible I could dig up the exact words if I tried hard enough, but I don't want to take the time... Anyway, thanks for talking me down <3

Re: the heroic-sexual-harassment aggrandising milieu of opera, I actually thiiiink this is what Japanese mezzo was trying to say? She kept saying, “It’s opera! It’s cultural! And he’s European, you know?” Possibly something was lost in translation.

*nods* I mean, I wouldn't go as far as she seems to, that it was therefore okay (or at least that's what I am vaguely getting thirdhand) but... I could see how all these terrible things might have happened and there still being a ton of people who had good experiences with him.

She was SO lovely, though, and she said my French accent was good, so I’m predisposed to thinking kindly of her <3

hee!

[iberiandoctor]

I wouldn’t go as far as she seems to, that it was therefore okay

No, of course, me neither; I do think, though, that in her mind, much of this stuff could be chalked up to misinterpretation/cultural misunderstanding — in that, given the heroic cultural milieu etc, the maestro didn’t mean to be harassing, nor would he have reasonably interpreted his conduct as harassing (though of course this position does also therefore mean that a reasonable person should not reasonably have felt harassed, which would be a very regrettable thing to say about accusations of this seriousness).

Anyway, as I said, she has her lived experience with him, etc. I would like to think that as a feminist and an attorney (and a decent human being) I would be able to keep an open and impartial mind about misconduct accusations concerning a colleague or friend, but I have no doubt my first instinct would be to be predisposed towards believing, and to try to defend, my colleague/friend — so I guess my encounter with her has helped me better understand the other opera people who are leaping to his defence.

I’m glad to talk you down any time! As I said, hopefully you are feeling better about this!

[(Anonymous)]

Frankly, I wish he retired a decade ago. His "baritone" activity is a crime in itself.

Grew up on his old recordings/films so I'm pretty disappointed he turned out to be a creep. I thought he was a better person than that.

And yeah - so many tenors are horrible! I'd gladly yeet half the tenor characters in opera into a volcano. They almost never get punished. (Oh yeah... Calaf? Fuck him.)

[cahn]

I don't think I mind his baritone activity quite as much as you do, although it's so weird! I mean, it's basically... this... tenor... singing baritone notes.

Yeah, I thought he was a better person than that too :(

Yes, that's what I mean, they never get punished! They're supposed to be the heroes! When a baritone is horrible, at least he usually gets punished for it so you're in no doubt as to whether he's a good guy or not. (Hi Don G!) Well, I guess there's Peter Grimes :P (Which I am watching the Met version of right now. SO GOOD. Also concurrently watching the Met Ballo with Hvorostovsky, also SO GOOD and I am really really enjoying it.)