cahn | Legacy (LM Bujold)

My homework for last weekend was reading Legacy. (Next weekend it will be to start looking up all these fabulous book recs I keep getting, yay, thanks!) I... didn't hate it. Probably from the Magic of Low Expectations-- I knew not to expect much, and, well, I wasn't disappointed.

It is a romance book. Fortunately, I was warned multiple times of this in advance. And seeing as how a) romance as a genre kind of bores me, and b) Bujold doing romance presses none of my adoration buttons and many of my rant buttons (more on this in a sec), well, there was a limit to much I'd like it, and I knew that going in.

I see (and I saw dimly after the first book) what Bujold is trying to do-- because she is a Real Writer, she can't stay in stasis doing the same thing forever; she needs to experiment. And I'm glad she does, because what she did in Chalion she could never have done on Barrayar, and in that case her experimentation was a grand success. However, her experiment with romance... well, now you've done the experiment, and now I hope you go on to experiment with something else. Please. Because romance is simply not Bujold's strength, though she may believe it is from the success of ACC. Although I loved ACC, the actual romances were not its strength; the comedy of errors and the tight plotting and the weaving of romance together with ruminations on biology and politics were its strengths.

What I liked: It was nice to get more backstory and more insight into the world, although... the mysteries set up were really relatively mild, and nothing really got resolved.

I quite liked the scene where Fawn gets totally whammed by Dag's mother, because I was so afraid that MarySue!Fawn would walk all over Dag's mother By Teh Power Of Her Rightness, and of course realistically that would never occur, because Dag's mom is older, has much more fighting experience, and can read Fawn like a book. I should have trusted Bujold more on that.

Stuff that didn't bother me as much as I expected it to: I liked Fawn much, much better in this book, actually. She did have some of a personality transplant-- somehow the girl who was immature enough to run away from home without actually telling anyone (I mean, hello, don't you think they might worry and think you had been kidnapped or something?) became all cool and mature once she got married. (The girl who had sex with Sunny so she would feel wanted and valid didn't once act unhealthily-clingy towards Dag? Um, from my limited understanding of human nature, I Don't Think So.) But since I hated Immature!Fawn, and couldn't see what Dag saw in her, I was more okay with that than I usually would be.

I'd also been told Fawn was aspiring to be a Totally!Smart!BujoldHeroine. I was okay with the way that was done-- she doesn't know much, and is not exactly totally introspective, but she's bright and curious, and sometimes has dizzying intuitive leaps. Coming at this right after Harry Potter, the king of intuitive leaps... I can't argue with that. Bujold was also at pains to point out that Intuitive Leap != Right Answer For Right Reasons, and that also reconciled me a huge amount.

I was rather more sympathetic towards Dag's dealings with his family than I was with Fawn's dealings with hers. Maybe because, you know, he didn't run away without telling anyone and then expect them to treat him as a mature adult. Also because Fawn's family seemed relatively normal (though with homicidally-stupid brothers, yes), and Dag's family seemed, well, to have deep-seated psychological Issues.

What I didn't like: The May-December romance thing really kept squicking me out, because it would not die-- characters kept commenting on it. Which on one hand is a testament to Bujold's careful writing craftsmanship, because in reality, yeah, everyone would be commenting on it. However, since I was kind of on everyone else's side and not on Fawn and Dag's side on this, it didn't really work.

What I hated so much that the margins of this post cannot contain it: Well, the ending. I was all, hey, this isn't so bad, and then the ending happened and if I had been reading my own copy I would have thrown it, well, across the bed. I have a whole other rant about Dag and responsibility and girls and Miles, but I'll post that later.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

ase.livejournal.com

Although I loved ACC, the actual romances were not its strength; the comedy of errors and the tight plotting and the weaving of romance together with ruminations on biology and politics were its strengths.

World of yes. I find Mark and Kareen impossibly cute, but I think a lot of their romance had to do with growing up and finding out who they were in the context of their families. The Miles/Ekaterin romance had problems for me.

Re: Totally!Smart!Fawn: it may be my perspective betraying me. Have you ever read Rosemary Kirstein's Steerswoman series? It features a very smart protagonist logicking her way through the world in a way that rings true to me. There are passing superficial similarities in the worldbuilding that make me think that if Kirstein had written SK, Fawn would actually feel as smart as Dag says she is.

I was so afraid that MarySue!Fawn would walk all over Dag's mother By Teh Power Of Her Rightness

While I do not like some of Dag's relatives as people, I am mad about them as characters.

I also disliked the ending. It failed to resolve anything, and created a situation where both characters ran away from their families. Which is all well and good in August, when you can live off the land, but not so much by December.

What did you specifically see Bujold experimenting with in SK? The romance elements? Fantasy? I think the "many years after the apocalypse, these are the problems" setup is a little unusual, but I don't know enough about the

From:

almeda.livejournal.com

I have had the chance to have several long discussions about her books with Lois at cons (she's good friends with a guy who runs a dealer's table I help staff), and, um, she thinks she's been writing romance novels all along.

She likes romance.

A lot.

Um, yeah.

From:

charlie-ego.livejournal.com

Yeah... I get that impression, that she likes romance a lot. And that's fine. But it was always "romance and politics and universe-smashing and psychological examinations and sociology and characters and rational exploration and worldbuilding," which meant I could ignore the romance parts that I didn't like.

SK is, well, just the romance and the worldbuilding and some characters, with everything else toned down a LOT, and it makes it a lot harder to ignore the romance. Plus which my definition of "romance" includes "some things, like personal honor, are more important than romance," and this book... didn't go that way.

From:

charlie-ego.livejournal.com

Argh, I just deleted the comment I was writing for this. That was smart. So sorry, this comment won't be as expansive as it might have been.

Fawn would actually feel as smart as Dag says she is.

Yeah, maybe it's because I was so firmly convinced Fawn was not so smart in Beguilement, but I was always taken a little aback when Dag was all, "Fawn's so smart and mature!" and I'd be, "Wait, this is the same girl who thought it would be a good idea to get knocked up by Sunny?"

I thought that SK was Bujold experimenting with non-book-larned characters, which I think is done well, though it's not really my thing, and with romance as the primary focus, which, I hope she stops very very soon. Chalion was her experimenting with high-fantasy-ish world and with theology, and because one of her strengths is careful craftmanship of these sorts of things, I thought her theology was really a resounding success.

From:

ase.livejournal.com

Argh, I just deleted the comment I was writing for this.

Oh, I love when that happens. For values of "love" that include frantic clickback attempts.

I was always taken a little aback when Dag was all, "Fawn's so smart and mature!" and I'd be, "Wait, this is the same girl who thought it would be a good idea to get knocked up by Sunny?"

In Fawn's defense, it seems to have been less "get knocked up by Sunny" and more "have sex with Sunny, with a poor understanding of the consequences". In other words, perfect recipe for bad teenage motherdom.

with romance as the primary focus, which, I hope she stops very very soon

You and I both. Romance is not so much my thing, unless something plotty is blowing up but good in the background.

I'm not enormously fond of the Chalion books, but I think that has a lot to do with my complete lack of religion. Unitarian religious ed does not a strong connection to faith - or organized religion - make. I liked The Hallowed Hunt because Horseriver is one of my favorite Bujold villains, thanks to his tendency to dole out half-truths that made Ingrey's head spin trying to put them together. But the rest of the book felt a bit unbalanced. (Also, I will never forgive Hallana for existing during my "three exams in 24 hours" spring 2005 finals. Reading the HH sample chapters was not a good study break.) The theology she makes up is interesting, but the nature of the five gods means that most of the narratively interesting stories will probably fall into the Bastard's domain.

From:

charlie-ego.livejournal.com

In Fawn's defense, it seems to have been less "get knocked up by Sunny" and more "have sex with Sunny, with a poor understanding of the consequences".

Well, that's exactly it... I mean, the girl lives on a farm, right? Doesn't that automatically give one a fairly decent understanding of mating and consequences thereof?

Hm, interestingly enough, my extremely strong religious, um, trinitarian? (this seems an injustice to both Trinitarians and my home religion (Mormonism), but I don't understand enough about the doctrine of the Trinity in mainstream Christianity to know what the proper term should be) upbringing made me actually feel very strongly and negatively about Curse of Chalion the first time I read it. Then, I got over myself and quite liked/admired it after that.

I thought Caz's story was more interesting than Ista's (though Ista had a couple of amazing moments unparalleled in Curse, like her last conversations with Arhys and Cattilara *shiver* (yeah, the redemption theme gets me Every Time Bujold does it)), but now that Caz has managed to save the world, yeah, I agree, there's not much there to do anymore. Hm, I never really got into Hallowed Hunt. Maybe I'll go read it again.

From:

ase.livejournal.com

Well, that's exactly it... I mean, the girl lives on a farm, right? Doesn't that automatically give one a fairly decent understanding of mating and consequences thereof?

It should. However, I'm assumpting that teenagers are universally stupid about sex, are perfectly willing to believe whatever their feckless peers tell them, and that she's - yes - not paying attention to details. I think what I'm trying to say here is that Fawn is that stupid, but has intellectual smarts. I am unimpressed with her street smarts to date.

I think the Chalion books might speak more strongly to people who have greater religious background than me. They read as adequate novels to me, but I don't feel a deep resonance. Does that make sense? One could write a novel about Cazaril's adventures as Iselle's Prime Minister (for lack of a better term) and ex-saint, but it would be a very different book, with a very different tone. I liked the sense of chance and inevitability in Curse: the long unwinding of how Caz got to be in a place to help break the curse. That was really neat. But it was a technical sort of neat, rather than pinging one of my major themes.

I really only like Hallowed Hunt for the Horseriver head-games. And oh, maybe Ingrey getting mocked a bit for his manpain. (Alcohol! This is a man who needs booze and a polar bear in his life.)

From:

almeda.livejournal.com

I'm not Devout, myself, but I deeply appreciated her using fantasy novels to show a *working*, not-our-world system of religion, that not only is internally consistent, and has 'real gods' (meaning, they can intervene in the world like DnD gods do), but where the hierarchy of the religion has a SOCIAL PURPOSE, just like in, oh, every single real-world religion ever.

As opposed to fantasy novels that (a) rub all the serial numbers off Christianity, (b) only use the gods as plot devices, and/or (c) pretend that nobody's faith ever has any real-world consequences in terms of social action or choices.

From:

charlie-ego.livejournal.com

As opposed to fantasy novels that (a) rub all the serial numbers off Christianity, (b) only use the gods as plot devices, and/or (c) pretend that nobody's faith ever has any real-world consequences in terms of social action or choices.

Yesyesyesyesyes. (Whenever we got "Jad" in the Sarantium books I would roll my eyes. I mean, yes, it's Byzantium, but geez, just call it Christianity and be done with it!)

I would add (d) postulate a not-very-thought-out fertility Goddess(es) religion that mostly results in everyone having a lot of sex and being very happy. (And/or sometimes there being a masculine God whose followers are repressed and annoying.) (Diane Duane and Sanderson, I'm looking at you!)

I hadn't thought about it exactly that way before-- though I had definitely admired her theological workings out-- how many fantasy novels with gods acknowledge theological problems about free will at all?-- but yeah, it's really cool that people in Chalion can both be religious and *use* that religion for either good or evil. The more I think about this, the more impressed I get.

From:

almeda.livejournal.com

In the way that some fantasy novels have a Really Neat Magic System, she's got a really neat god system in Chalion.

She herself says she was deliberately trying to have a non-binary religion (not just Good/Evil -- the Bastard is there to make it multivalent, and accepting of Weirdness), but that as she wrote the first book the Quadrene heresy just suddenly popped up and insisted that even in a world like that, binarism WOULD show up again, because it's just too damn convenient to the people in power.

From:

charlie-ego.livejournal.com

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that the system *was* good or evil (and I *love* the Bastard, and I also love how it's so balanced-- someone once asked me if the Holy Spirit in Christianity was female, because she thought it was kind of weird that the Trinity is always male, and I had no good answer) just that people can always use it for one or the other. I totally love the Quadrene heresy-- that's so, well, sensible. In the sense of, that would totally happen, and I love when things are thought out so well.

From:

ase.livejournal.com

I am a fan of gods as plot device only when I get prophecy as plot device out of the deal, and I never get good prophecy plots. The narrative fails to do anything fun and devious with the Hallowed Prophecy of Old. "And oh, if you read the fine print, the common translation dropped a syllable, so it shouldn't read 'the Dark Lord is defeated by the first son of the kingdom', it should read, 'the Dark Lord is defeated by the first child of the kingdom' and by 'child' I think they meant your illegitimate daughter who just lopped off the Sauron analog's head. Sire. And perhaps Sire would see fit to decently funding the Chair of the Library of Ancient Knowledge so we can hire the good translators?"

This may be why I started actively avoiding fat fantasy epics a couple years back.

From:

charlie-ego.livejournal.com

Huh. It's true, I can't think of any besides Chalion (which I don't know if you count, but like you said before, it's satisfying to see how it all works out (and, kind of, how it doesn't)) and LOTR, which didn't really focus on prophecies, really. (And didn't have any gods to speak of, I mean, sure, Manwe and all that, but they didn't really show up explicitly in LOTR... which I think was a good thing.) Ah well.

And HP, I guess, but I totally don't count that because even now that I know how it all turns out, I *still* can't parse the darn thing.

I started avoiding fat fantasy epics because... the fatter they are, the worse the writing tends to be.

From:

ase.livejournal.com

I hadn't considered Chalion, but it's lurking in the background of the thought process, yes. An inexplicable prophecy turned explicable after the fact and on a technicality or two.

And HP, I guess, but I totally don't count that because even now that I know how it all turns out, I *still* can't parse the darn thing.

I, um, never really tried. HP is working off fantasy conventions, but with limited consideration of second-order effects.

I started avoiding fat fantasy epics because... the fatter they are, the worse the writing tends to be.

There's that aspect, too. I'm actively avoiding 1,000 page doorstops these days because the payoff is rarely worth the time investment.

From:

almeda.livejournal.com

If you have the willpower to STOP after book three, and never know 'how it comes out', the Wheel of Time is actually pretty cool.

However, after book 3, he wrote an endlessly growing series of difficult middle books that cover less and less actual TIME per doorstop, with the viewpoint characters growing exponentially, and UCK. I gave up after a book that, in its Jordanesque Doorstopness, covered *six days* of time. Six days. Plus, there were so many sidelong references to plots five books ago (with very few incluing details; things like, "In the city of many bridges over glittering canals, a shadowy figure with many clinking braids organized in a way you ought to remember, smiles to himself and thinks, "Ahh, my plan is coming together." And then he cuts away) that it was hopeless to UNDERSTAND it unless you'd just read all of them back to back.

That said, the first three, though totally unresolved, have some neat worldbuilding and magic in them.

From:

charlie-ego.livejournal.com

I stopped after about book 5 or so. I remember the first three as being fairly cool, but I'm also allergic to not knowing how things come out, so if I'd known I would skid to a halt I wouldn't've begun in the first place.

There's also the Martin Song of Ice and Fire fat fantasy epic, which is the only fat fantasy epic (now that HP's ended) I'm following nowadays, if I can define "following" as "skimming very quickly in bookstore when it comes out." After the first couple, it broke my first cardinal rule of books, which is: I have to like at least one of the characters. Which is too bad, since the plotting and all is pretty good.

From:

ase.livejournal.com

Aw. I stopped reading Fire and Ice after the second, when Martin broke the "he's dead - no, he's not!" rule a little too often. There's battlefield chaos, and then there's messing with your readers' heads because, ha ha ha, you're the author and you can.

From:

charlie-ego.livejournal.com

Heh. I think by that time I already didn't care enough about the characters to care if Martin had killed them off or not.

Guy Gavriel Kay is the one I always think of as being really annoying about the "he's dead - no he's not" rule. I'm in the process of writing up a rant about why GGK annoys me to the point I can barely read his books, even though everyone else seems to love him.

From:

almeda.livejournal.com

I can't read GGK because he's smug about being the author and knowing evvvvverything, and I don't, because I'm the iggerant reader.

Also, at least in Sarantium (which is all I've read), he keeps removing (or never giving them anything to do) the characters I like best, and taking the people I find boring and embroiling them in politics he gives me no reason to care about.

Totally not my kink.

From:

charlie-ego.livejournal.com

I can't read GGK because he's smug about being the author and knowing evvvvverything, and I don't, because I'm the iggerant reader.

Yes, exactly!

Hee, Sarantium was the one GGK I actually got through without hating too much... but mostly because I was all, "Hey, wait, that guy is Emperor Justinian!" and that interested me enough to get through it (and probably made me care about the politics much more than you did).

From:

almeda.livejournal.com

Thank God it's not just me; all of my GGK-worshipping friends look at me funny when I articulate that dislike.

The only two things that kept me reading Sailing-to to the end were (a) all the mosaicsgeeking, and (b) the bird. Yes, I took four years of Latin in high school. No, I was not uber-enchanted by the fact that Justinian is a character.

If you took Latin, too, btw, I can highly recommend Somtow Sucharitkul (or SP Somtow, as he's now known)'s Aquiliad books as HILARIOUS alternate roman history. Head and shoulders above Sarantium, and not just because he has the sense of humor GGK was clearly born entirely lacking ...

From:

charlie-ego.livejournal.com

ahaha. You have incited me a) to finish Arbonne, and b) write a rant about it (see my latest lj post). I actually didn't hate it, because it turned out not to have a lame plot. But I also skipped all the annoying teaser "ha, I know and you don't!" by reading only the last half-third.

oh, yeah, the mosaicsgeeking! I did like that. Someday I shall go visit Ravenna and Constantinople. Was not particularly entranced by the bird. I have had a Thing for Justinian and Theodora ever since reading The Dragon Waiting which led me to seduction by John Julius Norwich, so it *did*, in fact, uber-enchant me. What can I say? I'm easy to please if you punch the right buttons. (If the author shows me s/he's read The White Goddess or The Triads of the Island of Britain or the Mabinogion, I'll lap it up, even if it's complete drivel! )

I have not taken Latin, but actual history-based stuff is sufficiently interesting to me that I think I'd really like Somtow. Will make a note. Ah, it would be nice to read something with a sense of humor, now that I've gotten through more GGK.

From:

almeda.livejournal.com

The Aquiliad is funny to most people, but hiLARious to anyone who had a latin teacher like mine ... and Mr. Somtow's, clearly. :->

I should note, it's 'alternate history' in big scare quotes: the what-if is "What if a time-travelling criminal gave Nero's empire the steam engine and Romans conquered North America?" ... for starters.

That said, all the American place-names (rivers, etc) that in our world were frenchified into English from Native words are Latinized, often hilariously. Our viewpoint character is a stuffy unreliable narrator Roman centurion; our protagonist is his sidekick, an American native named Aquila.

One of the things that corpsed me is that ... well. In the latter Roman empire, all educated high-class Romans spoke Greek fluently and casually, and spoke Latin for formal occasions and oratory. Therefore, in the Aquila books, whenever they'd be speaking Greek it's rendered as colloquial modern American English. Whenever they're speaking Latin, it's rendered as, "Oh, I say, old chap, pip pip!" stilted British Edwardian cant. :->

From:

charlie-ego.livejournal.com

ha! that sounds hilarious! Hm, I didn't know that about the language; I expect that it won't be quite as funny to me... But I love books like that, that are funnier (or more meaningful or whatever) the more you know, because it gives room for rereading later.

(btw, speaking of books that are funnier when you know a bit of history, this reminds me very vaguely of the "textbook" Dave Barry Slept Here, which is hilarious after taking ordinary high-school american history (at least, if you like Dave Barry, which I totally do); my roommate and I used it in high school to study for the AP exam.)

I looked for Somtow unsuccessfully this weekend at the library but I am overdue for an amazon bookrun...

From:

almeda.livejournal.com

Especially because he has two different names depending on when the edition was printed, some of his books are really hard to find.

Also, mostly they're in small editions. Mallworld is another of his that I really like, for very different reasons -- it's a bunch of interleaved stories (think Thieves' World, only all by one author) that take place on a space station that is basically one huge mall.

From:

ase.livejournal.com

I stopped around the eighth, and wish I'd dropped it closer to the sixth. I wouldn't tell people to read the series now; I value narrative resolution too much.

From:

charlie-ego.livejournal.com

I think what I'm trying to say here is that Fawn is that stupid, but has intellectual smarts. I am unimpressed with her street smarts to date.

...Yeah. I'm with you. I think this is why her portrayal didn't bother me, because her character seemed fairly consistent with your summation.

That being said, I would think that street smarts would be WAY more useful than intellectual smarts in this world, and it's still surprising to me that Dag thinks she is smart/mature.

I think the Chalion books might speak more strongly to people who have greater religious background than me. They read as adequate novels to me, but I don't feel a deep resonance.

Yeah. I mean, I think you can totally admire her worldbuilding without a religious background (although it probably also helps there too-- like, if you've gotten into arguments with pastors about free will, it's more fun to see an explanation for free will in this theology show up in Chalion), but it's certainly true that they hit all kinds of themes for me (redemption redemption redemption!) and I can see those themes not being hit for someone else. And they are, sometimes, very different themes than the Vor universe usually hits.

...Which is all to say, I appreciated Bujold playing with these different things. But I *really* don't think her romance-in-fantasy worked. I mean, I'd rather get Lackey to write another romance-in-fantasy where the Heroes Run Off Together (....although, you know, they tend not to do that in Lackey either!), and get Bujold doing something more tailored to her strengths.

From:

ase.livejournal.com

That being said, I would think that street smarts would be WAY more useful than intellectual smarts in this world, and it's still surprising to me that Dag thinks she is smart/mature.

I'm a little clueless on that one, too. I think we are in agreement on this point. Let's not talk about that unsubtle corner of my mind that says, "if you make this science fiction, where the malices are nanotech gone horribly wrong, I could solve everything!" There might even be aliens. Which is totally not where the books are going. (And when we've hit the, "but I can fix it!" part of the discussion, you know I'm less than thrilled about some part of the novel.)

like, if you've gotten into arguments with pastors about free will, it's more fun to see an explanation for free will in this theology show up in Chalion

See, that's a pleasure I've never had, so the free will arguments are pretty without being particularly resonant.

...Which is all to say, I appreciated Bujold playing with these different things. But I *really* don't think her romance-in-fantasy worked.

Yes and yes. I think romance is where she fails to tweak the tropes, and that just doesn't work for me. I want a long, gooey Miles/Taura type relationship, and that isn't what she's doing these days.

From:

almeda.livejournal.com

Reading this post, I just realized something: Fawn and Dag are some of her first non-extremely-mentally-messed-up-then-fixed characters (with a possible pass for Dag from widower trauma).

Fawn's too healthy to be a Bujold character, and it makes her head feel funny, to me.

I love Mark/Kareen because Mark is SO VERY BROKEN and yet he's doing his best to act like a Real Boy for Kareen. Ekaterin is getting glimpses of just how nuts (though functional) Miles is, and she's not running screaming. Cordelia is almost aggressively, thoughtfully sane, by *choice*, and she deals with great aplomb with the madness that is Barrayar, and with her family's particular madnesses.

And if anyone thinks any of the Chalion protagonists are 'normal', I'd like to hear about it. :->

From:

charlie-ego.livejournal.com

errmm. You have a bit of a point there. Though Aral is rather less messed-up mentally than Dag, I think. Also, he is not running after teenagers, which I approve of. (Aral, not Dag.)

Yeah, I think that was what drove me nuts about Fawn in Beguilement particularly-- she had not undergone anything but normal teenage angst, but I felt like we were being asked to treat that teenage angst with the same gravity that we treat LMB's totally-messed-up-character's angst. And that didn't work for me.

And if anyone thinks any of the Chalion protagonists are 'normal', I'd like to hear about it. :->

Iselle and what's-his-name are not particularly messed up internally (yeah, he did get kidnapped by pirates paid by his brother, but he seems to have bounced back all right, and he did seem to have a loving childhood), but externally they do have this curse thingie and all. On the other hand, they're not really protagonists. Beatriz seems pretty much perfectly normal, though going through some tough times as a teenager/young woman. (And I really want a crossover fic where Beatriz kicks Fawn's butt, because she totally could.) Caz and Ista, on the other hand, have SO much messed-up-ness going on that they pretty much make up for all the rest of them :)

From:

almeda.livejournal.com

I realized after hitting 'post' that I'd skipped Ethan and Elli, as viewpoint main-characters of Bujold books, but Elli's definitely a grownup, and Ethan gets tossed so far out of the water in his book that it keeps it interesting. Plus, by Galactic standards he's nuts, even if by Athosian standards he's completely well-adjusted and upstanding.