Classics Salon!

[cahn]

So yeah, anyone who has been around this DW for more than a very little while has known that we had a salon in which we discussed Frederick the Great in particular and 18th-century Enlightenment figures in general.

But nooooow we are going to have a Classics salon!

My Classics background is, er, well, I guess my Classics history is pretty much on par with or somewhat worse than my general non-US historical background (read: I know almost nothing, with some random pockets of slight layman knowledge), and my Classics literary background is signficantly worse than my general literary background (no real reason, it's not like I had a vendetta against it or anything, I think I just didn't happen to have a good entry point). I've read the Odyssey last year and the Aeneid reasonably recently, and the Iliad not so reasonably recently (perhaps this will be the impetus for me to check out the Wilson translation), and Ted Hughes' translation of selected Metamorphoses.

Please feel free to tell me what books I really ought to be looking at next! (I believe there has been some discussion of Plutarch?) Feel free to wax eloquent about your favorite translations, whether it's something I've already read or not! Also please free to tell me any of your favorite Classics history you want, because I probably don't know it :)

(This is not supposed to be just for mildred_of_midgard and selenak, although of course I expect them to be prime contributors. I know that many of you, probably all of you, know a lot about Classics that I don't know, so please inform me! Tell me your favorite things! :D )

Comments

Re: Suetonius: The Lives of the Caesars

[cahn]

Ha, this is great except that of course I don't really know much about any of these guys (...I guess I know a little about Julius Caesar, fine, and a little less about Hadrian because I still have to watch the opera, sigh) but this is presumably a good way to learn more!

Augustus, we learn, even as an old man with decades of harping on bringing back Roman morality "greatly enjoyed deflowering virgins", and hey, why not, but the poor man having to banish his daughter Julia and his granddaughter of the same name because they had extramarital sex, the sluts!)

sigh

But it still feels somewhat bizarre, even knowing about this in theory, when again and again, you come across consensual relations between two adult men as being seen as bad whereas any Roman (either gender)/ their own slave or Roman man/young male adolescent relation is not.

Well this definitely seems bizarre to me!

With an equal disregard for the law and the traditions of his country, (...) he admitted into the Senate House men who had actually been given their citzenship - some of them Gauls who had barely left barbarism behind!

That seems very forward-thinking -- I mean, barbaric!

Anyway, that means Julius Caesar being seen as a patron for Judeans wasn't intended as neutral or a compliment. (Suetonius thinks he's interesting and gifted but by and large, he had it coming. I mean, the guy even multitasked and was answering letters and reports during gladiator shows! Augustus never made that mistake.)

I was dying through this whole paragraph, omg. Suetonius!

Re: Suetonius: The Lives of the Caesars

[selenak]

You do already know some, because you know I, Claudius, and Suetonius was Robert Graves' main source. Incidentally, the audio series I reviewed some years back by Mike Walker, Caesar!, also used Suetonius until and including Nero, and then they used the Historia Augustae for the remaining Emperors, and that really is the tabloid/National Enquirer of histories from the ancient world, hailing from the 4th century. In fairness to Mike Walker, he clearly does use other sources as well. The Hadrian episode showcases this because the main character is Suetonius a few years after he's been fired by Hadrian, the characters also include Julia Balbilla, who was a poet, friend and possibly friend with benefits to Hadrian's wife Sabina, and the whole reason why we know about Julia Balbilla isn't from any of the (male written) histories but because she was part of the entourage when Hadrian (and Antinous, and Sabina) visited Egypt (this was the trip where Antinous died), everyone went to the statues of "Memnon" (today known as Ammenophis III.) and Julia not only composed poems about this but had someone engrave them on the already millennia old Egyptian statue, making very sure each poem also includes her name. Anyway, Walker including her does signal he's done his research beyond the prime sources.

Back to The Twelve Caesars - those are the deified Julius himself, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, Nero, the three wannabes Galba, Otho and Vitellius, and the three Flavians, Vespasian, Titus and Domitian. Suetonius's Dad was actually a soldier who fought for Otho, just so you know the temporal distance from his time of writing. (Possibly why Otho goes from being a detestable Nero bff to being an admirable guy looking out for his soldiers and committing suicide rather than escaping once he realises he's losing so the Civil War won't drag on and more of his men get killed.) Sadly, Suetonius other notorious work, "Lives of the Great Whores", was lost to posterity because the medieval monks let us down by not transcribing it.

Well this definitely seems bizarre to me!


I knew about it in theory because it does get mentioned in every (current day) biography of a Roman, pretty much, but it's one thing to do so and another to get textual examples at book length. Like I said, there are other Roman sexual taboos which are also our taboos - in addition to incest, sex with (pre pubescent) children, obviously. But that makes it doubly bizarre to find consensual relations between two male adults listed.

(Suetonius doesn't mention f/f of any variation at all. Now obviously the Romans knew about this - they did love reading and translating Sappho -, but possibly because even free women had lower status than any man anyway, it didn't come with the same kind of hangups. In any case, none of the ladies showing up in Caesars get accused of having sex with each other when Suetonius wants to show them as degenerate. They are always at fault via m/f type of sex. Another reason could be that be that the Romans might not have cared what women did with each other because it didn't impact anyone's family bloodline, whereas sleeping with another man could mean making the paternity of a child questionable, but that's me speculating, and you can argue against this that the Romans were great at adopting, and saw those relationships as completly the equivalent of biological family relationships. Famously Augustus is consistently described as Julius Caesar's son even though he was the great nephew who only got adopted Caesar's will, but it also shows in the way Tiberius is chided for his lack of family feeling re Germanicus (biologically his nephew as the son of his brother Drusus), who is called his son all the time because Augustus made Tiberius adopt him. So who knows.

That seems very forward-thinking -- I mean, barbaric!

LOL. Mind you, the Gauls in question whom Caesar made senators were from Cis-Alpine Gaul, meaning not even from France proper but today's Northern Italy. They had been Romanized since generations. But it's true that Caesar's contemporaries were incredibly upset about this. Not that he did it out of the goodness of his heart - he thereby ensured a lot more clients of his would be in the Senate who because the old school Senators were such snobs would not team up with them against him.

It's interesting how the definition of what it means to be Roman changes throughout Roman history. Romans of Caesar's and Cicero's generation lived only a generation after the "Wars with the Allies", which was about the Italian cities demanding (and eventually getting) full rights and Roman citizenship, as opposed to it being limited to people born in the city of Rome and hardcore Latium. Hence it being a really big deal that Marius, Caesar's uncle, was a "new man" from Arpinum, not Rome. (So was Cicero, a generation later, but he teamed up with the Optimates rather than the Populares like Caesar.) Vespasian was the first Emperor who wasn't even from Latium, he was a Sabine boy. By the time Suetonius is writing, Trajan and his own boss Hadrian hail from Spain, and didn't come to Rome until they were adults, because Roman citizenship had been enlarged correspondingly. After Commodus comes in and starts the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire storyline (which will take some more centuries to happen), we get in the aftermath Septimius Severus, and he's from Africa, his wife from Syria. And it was his son Caracalla, one of the worst Emperors, who put an end to the enlarging definitions by just making it law that anyone born within the Roman Empire was also a Roman citizen. And you may remember that by the time we get to Mildred's guy Diocletian, the Roman Emperors come from the Balcans, and hardly show up in Rome itself at all (Diocletian famously loathed the place). And yet they most definitely saw themselves as Romans.

This goes on into the Middle Ages, because the Byzantines never thought of themselves as Byzantines (we owe 19th century historians for that nomenclature), they considered themselves Romans, the true Romans, directly in a succession from Augustus. That Justinian was the last Emperor who still had Latin as a first language, not Greek, was immaterial for this. So by the time we're in the later fifth century AD, being Roman had become disconnected from the city of Rome, from Italy, and even from the Latin language.

Multitasking during a gladiator show being bad: it's a fine balance you have to strike as a Caesar. On the one hand, palling around with actors and singers, let alone taking the stage like Nero is horrible and utterly destroys your dignity. (God knows what Suetonius would have made of Commodus fighting gladiators himself.) On other hand, ignoring the games while being there, thus signalling you're not really interested when the rest of the population very much is, is also not cool and means you have a tyrannical mindset and think yourself better than the senators betting on gladiators your people. Don't do that.

Incidentally, it's also not like Suetonius always believes the sex stories, and not just when it's his hero the divine Augustus accused. He doesn't think Titus had an affair with his sister-in-law, Domitian's wife whom Feuchtwanger called Lucia but who was in reality called Domitia. (You can see why Feuchtwanger renamed her.) Why?

Domitia swore on everything sacred that no such affair had ever taken place, and she would hardly have done so had there been even an element of truth to the story. Indeed - since she was never a woman to keep quiet about the details of her outrageous sex life - she would have made a great song and dance about it.

Speaking of Titus, the affair with Berenice goes into the minus column, because foreign Queen (Romans: still having a Cleopatra complex in Suetonius' time), but since Titus ends the relationship once he gets the top job, Suetonius treats it as an overall plus: He sent Berenice away from Rome the moment he became emperor: something that caused him no less pain than it did her. (Giving your love up for Rome: following the Aeneas model!)

And mentioning Cleopatra brings me to that letter by Antony to Octavian which Suetonius quotes in his Augustus biography, which is a reply to Octavian using the relationship with Cleopatra in his anti-Antony propaganda. Mildred probably knows it already, but I bet you don't, so here it is, as translated by Tom Holland:

What's worrying you? That I'm fucking the Queen? She is my wife. Did I just start, or have I been at it for nine years now? What about you - you don't just fuck (Livia) Drusilla, right? Since you're a man in your prime, I bet by the time you get to read this letter you've been fucking Tertulla, or Terentilla, or Rufilila, or Salvia Titsenia, or the whole lot of them! What does it really matter where you're sticking your hard cock and who you're fucking?

Re: Suetonius: The Lives of the Caesars

[cahn]

Ah! Yeah, like I think I said above, I need to read I, Claudius again, but I do have a base there.

Sadly, Suetonius other notorious work, "Lives of the Great Whores", was lost to posterity because the medieval monks let us down by not transcribing it.

Monks! Come on now! Surely you could have come up with some... metaphorical... reason why you could have kept it!

I knew about it in theory because it does get mentioned in every (current day) biography of a Roman, pretty much, but it's one thing to do so and another to get textual examples at book length.

Haha, yeah, like I said above, I've actually heard of this, but it's still utterly bizarre to me because of being just SO substantially different than the way I look at the world.

and you can argue against this that the Romans were great at adopting, and saw those relationships as completly the equivalent of biological family relationships.

Huh, interesting. I could see the Romans being into full disclosure, though, so adopting someone where you knew adoption was taking place might be OK while being a cuckold was not?

(God knows what Suetonius would have made of Commodus fighting gladiators himself.)

Omg, I think this factoid shows up somewhere in a Rick Riordan book. (In one of the series, various not-so-nice Roman emperors are brought back to life. Nero, Commodus, and... I forget the third one.)

Indeed - since she was never a woman to keep quiet about the details of her outrageous sex life - she would have made a great song and dance about it.

OMG. I laughed. Suetonius!

(Giving your love up for Rome: following the Aeneas model!)

Public duty over private happiness?

Wow, no, I didn't know that letter at all! That's amazing.

Re: Suetonius: The Lives of the Caesars

[selenak]

Not having read Rick Riordan, my guess is Number 3 could be either Elagabolus, Caracalla or Caligula. These usually make the worst Emperors list. Something to remember which was which (not Caligula, you do know about Caligula):

Commodus: the one with the gladiators. Played by Joaquin Phoenix in the movie. Was the son of Marcus Aurelius, thereby ending the run of the “five good Emperors” (Nerva - the guy instrumental in offing Domitian -, Trajan, Hadrian, Antonius Pius, Marcus Aurelius) who had all adopted each other as a grown man showing ability. Managed to make the Empire go from “peak condition” to “decline and fall”. As opposed to Nero, definitely did not get flowers on his tomb post murder.

Caracalla: into soldiers the way Commodus was into gladiators. Killed his brother Geta in their mother Julia Domna’s arms. Built still famous baths in Rome and made everyone within the borders of the Empire a citizen, but had zero economic skills and massive sadism issues. Killed anyone who dared to laugh at him and then some, including lots of people in Alexandria. Got murdered and replaced by the first non-noble Emperor, a general named Macrinus.

Elagabolus: Grandson of Julia Domna’s sister Julia Maesa whom Maesa cunningly claimed to have been Caracalla’s illegitimate son (he wasn’t). Was fourteen when his grandmother, aunt and mother managed to turn the family fortune around, because they got the better of Macrinus by presenting young E to the troops who changed sides and made him Emperor. Within the next few years, E managed to outrage pretty much everyone in Rome - imagine teen becoming all powerful worst case scenario - , including his grandmother, who eventually replaced him by his even younger cousin Severus Alexander. By murder, natch. Famous E misdeeds include drowing guests in rose petals, being into changing his sexual identity, letting himself be topped, raping people of both genders and marrying a Vestal virgin - and trying to introduce the god from his hometown to Rome as surpassing Jupiter.

Re: Suetonius: The Lives of the Caesars

[cahn]

It was Caligula! (This was a failure just of my remembering the Riordan plot, not that I didn't remember Caligula himself. Commodus had been new to me, though.) BTW, I don't recommend Rick Riordan for adults -- I'm glad my 10-year-old is reading him, and I didn't dislike the ones he made me read, but it's a little too, hm, middle-grade for me to really recommend, and certainly not to someone who actually knows about Classics!

Famous E misdeeds include drowing guests in rose petals, being into changing his sexual identity, letting himself be topped

This is totally sending me. Again, not able to suppress my twenty-first-century instincts!

Re: Suetonius: The Lives of the Caesars

[selenak]

I think I did link this before, but check out the Evil Emperors Song from Horrible Histories for more.

Rick Riordan

[mildred_of_midgard]

Haha, I was chatting a couple weeks ago with a Classics professor, who recounted a story that happened to him a few years ago in a Greek myth course he was teaching:

Student: *refers to Percy Jackson*
Prof: Who's that?
Student: Omg. Who else in this class is only here because of Percy Jackson?
Every student: *raises their hand* (with one exception, and she was from China)

The next day:
Prof: *brings a boxed set to class and slams it down on his desk*
Prof: Challenge accepted!

And he ended up reading them to his kid. :'D

The prof's verdict was that they were fine, but I don't think he loved them. So pretty similar to your verdict.

Re: Rick Riordan

[cahn]

Haha, that is a great story! Go prof!

Now, my kid did read D'Aulaire's Greek Myths before he read Riordan, buuuuut if he took a Greek myths class it would definitely be because of Percy Jackson!

They are fine! And they definitely rank in the top half of things my kid has made me read. But yeah.

Re: Rick Riordan

[selenak]

Like I said, I haven't read them, but I am following the tv show on Disney, and find it charming and clever in how it uses the myths, way better than Disney used to use them (no Hades-is-the-devil nonsense, for starters, nor Zeus as a white-haired, white-bearded benevolent patriarch). But as entertaining as I find it, it hasn't compelled me yet to want to read the books.

Re: Rick Riordan

[mildred_of_midgard]

I only saw the first movie, and yeah, it was fine, but it didn't inspire me to pick up the books or watch anything more.

Me, throughout the entire movie: "The son of the sea god keeps denying that he stole the thing. Has anyone tried asking the son of the god of stealing things? Seriously, tho, have you tried??"

Lol.

Elagabalus

[mildred_of_midgard]

Famous E misdeeds

Or, perhaps more accurately, Cahn, famous misdeeds attributed to E. Much of the historiography on him comes from the Historia Augusta, which is definitely the Nancy Goldstone of its time, if not worse (it may have been intended as fiction), and much of the rest comes after E's murder by people who had a vested interest in portraying him as deserving to be overthrown (think Richard III). Some brief prior discussion Selena and I had on the subject.

The famous rose petal scene as depicted by Alma-Tadema: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Roses_of_Heliogabalus#/media/File:The_Roses_of_Heliogabalus.jpg

Per the Historia Augusta: "In a banqueting-room with a reversible ceiling he once buried his guests in violets and other flowers, so that some were actually smothered to death, being unable to crawl out to the top."

Like you do!

Re: Elagabalus

[cahn]

Heh, I mean, that picture really does bring home that if it were true that would have been A LOT of flowers :P But gosh, tabloid history is definitely sensationalistic!

Re: Elagabalus

[selenak]

You have no idea. There are some incredibly horrible details in what Suetonius claims Tiberius was up to on Capri in his last years, some of which involve babies (not as in small kids, though they are there, too, but as in literal babies). (The depressing thing is that on the one hand, this could be like those "Hillary is running a pedophile ring from a Washington, DC Pizza restaurant's cellar" stories making the rounds in Rome about their weird Emperor who won't come back from the island where only a very few people are allowed to visit.... or it could be the truth, because sadly, in this day and age, we do know there are people doing this.

Tabloid history offers both the fun part of sensationalistic ("Nero and Otho had sex with each other AS ADULTS!), the ridiculous as in the rose petals business... and the makes-you-throw-up part.

Re: Elagabalus

[mildred_of_midgard]

Yeah, seriously, I only read Suetonius once, twenty-five years ago, and I've never been able to obtain enough brain bleach to forget about Tiberius and the babies.

Suetonius does hedge his bets as to whether it's credible, though, doesn't he? Am I remembering right?

Re: Elagabalus

[selenak]

There is an “it is claimed” early on in the entire ghastly paragraph, yes. Without saying who does the claiming; as mentioned, it’s only the Augustus biography which stands out with source-of-sexual-slander notations.