Okay, revised version which fits the meter better. I sometimes had to sacrifice the rhymes, but I tried to keep couplets rhyming, at least. I also tried to copy the theme and even wording where possible.
Francis Stephen of Lorraine George the 3rd has gone insane Independence Incognito, Duke of Marlborough Whiff of grapeshot, Wolfgang Mozart Cameralism, Reign of Terror Sturm und Drang, Romanticism Liberum veto
Adam Smith, pamphlet Antoinette without a head Plenty here to read Pamela, Voltaire's Candide Victory with Washington Painting Emma Hamilton Rococo, phlogiston Johnson writes a lexicon
We did not start the fire It was always burning as the world was turning We did not start the fire No, we did not light it, but we tried to fight it
Lady Mary, Potemkin Charles the 12th and Bonnie Prince Colonies, slave trade Eugene on campaign Rousseau, Diderot Casanova, Crusoe Edward Gibbon Rothschild fortune made
Hussars horseback Johann Sebastian Bach Siege of Dresden, Rights of Man Telemachus, Caps and Hats Grand Tour, Corsica Prussian muskets, Oglethorpe Louverture, Pompadour Battle of Poltava!
We did not start the fire It was always burning as the world was turning We did not start the fire No, we did not light it, but we tried to fight it
Spanish Bourbons, Poniatowski Struensee, Stanislaus Leszczynski Savoy changing sides Painfully the Sun King dies Amber Room, Wollstonecraft Gulliver, Maurice de Saxe Treatise by Montesquieu Several Russian palace coups
Guillotine, Vienna French Encyclopedia Tsarevitch Alexei Émilie du Châtelet Potsdam, Petersburg Turk ships at Chesma burn Great Frost, too cold Panic, it's the Redcoats!
We did not start the fire It was always burning as the world was turning We did not start the fire No, we did not light it, but we tried to fight it
Salonistes, satirists French is spoken everywhere Famous wits, Old Fritz Saxony invasion Franklin's Philadelphia Giant soldier–mania Meissen, Versailles Executing Jacobites That's Tsar Peter building ships Scientific Pompeii digs Black plague, go away What else do I dare to say?
We did not start the fire It was always burning as the world was turning We did not start the fire No, we did not light it, but we tried to fight it
Porcelain, Bonaparte Hapless Damiens torn apart Silkworms, Hochkirch, Second round: Falkirk Bleeding counts as medicine Orlovs oust a sovereign Washout of the Medici British navy rules the sea
Pragmatic Sanction Fake memoirs are fiction Minden, Maxen Habsburgs, Brandenburg Joseph clawing back reforms Once-great Poland is no more Curse all these succession wars I can't take it anymore!
We did not start the fire It was always burning as the world was turning We did not start the fire But when we are gone, it shall still burn on and on and on
We did not start the fire It was always burning as the world was turning We did not start the fire No we did not light it, but we tried to fight it
"Pamela" is next to "Voltaire's Candide" for reasons best known to salon. :D Likewise, I think Fritz would appreciate rhyming and alliterating with "famous wits."
I lip-synced the results while listening to the bardcore version, and there are only a few deviations from meter, and I think all can be handled by stretching out a syllable or pronouncing all syllables with equal weight. This version is definitely easier to sing along to than my first draft.
It also slants American, obviously, where Selena slanted Prussian. I tried to minimize overlap between our songs, but I did borrow "porcelain" (good thinking!).
Yes this is much better! And ahahahaha I love the Pamela/Candide line :D
What about "Another Russian palace coup"?
(I am visiting family right now and don't have the stuff I need to experiment with the music, so no progress right now from my end. Going home soon though!)
Not only does it fit the meter better, but I'm pleased I managed to work in some catchier lines like:
Rousseau, Diderot, Casanova, Crusoe
I'd rather have "Defoe" than "Crusoe", but "Crusoe" near-rhymes with "Rousseau" (or at least they can be rhymed better when singing than speaking) and alliterates with "Casanova", so "Crusoe" it is!
What about "Another Russian palace coup"?
I had tried it, but it didn't fit "Seven papal regicides," having an extra syllable. You see, my whole MO was, "I have no idea how to create an earworm, but these people obviously do, so copy what they did as CLOSELY as possible!!"
That said, it works by itself, being iambic, and does rhyme better with "Montesquieu", so if you think it sounds better, go for it! (The singer gets a say in what sounds better. ;))
I am visiting family right now and don't have the stuff I need to experiment with the music, so no progress right now from my end.
This is good, because I'm still tweaking! (I wanted to tell you not to spend too much time practicing pronunciation on mine and to start with Selena's, because I had a feeling my second draft was going to be substantially different than my first, and it was!)
Reach out to me when you're ready to start practicing, and we can settle on a finalized version. This is going to be fun!
(Though I do sometimes feel like that Conan satire of GRRM doing being willing to do literally anything else besides finish the next book. Mildred: will do literally anything rather than finish writing about Peter Keith and Fredersdorf!)
Fritz definitely would. I'm also tickled about "Giant soldier–mania" - so FW did find his way into your version!
Fake memoirs are fiction
As we had plenty of opportunity to find out. Several times. BTW, as what do we count Henri de Catt? It's definitely RPF, but it's not a fake memoir in the sense that the fake Eugene/Austrian Trenck/Maintenon etc. memoirs are fake in that these are really the memoirs by the person whose name is on the title page, and he was Fritz' reader.
Yay for Emma Hamilton (and thus painter Romney) showing up in this version! I felt a bit guilty about not being able to work any of the Hervey stuff in, as I now have a soft spot for the entire mad clan. But then as you say, mine was Prussian-centric. I will say that Franklin shows up in mine, too, in the sole other line dealing with USian matters (in addition to the one about tax dodging). :)
It occurs to me he'd also appreciate near-rhyming with "satirists" two lines up. And invading Saxony in the next line. (Oh, Fritz.)
I'm also tickled about "Giant soldier–mania" - so FW did find his way into your version!
He did! You took Voltaire-mania, and I was pleased when I remembered FW, then was able to make the meter work by dint of using "giant" instead of "tall". (So many good ideas I had to discard because of uncooperative meter or rhyme.)
BTW, as what do we count Henri de Catt?
Good question. Fictionalized but not fake memoirs, maybe?
Yay for Emma Hamilton (and thus painter Romney) showing up in this version!
Yeah, it was a two-for-one deal, and I knew you'd like it! :D
I felt a bit guilty about not being able to work any of the Hervey stuff in
I feel guilty about not working in Maria Theresia! I tried in the first draft, but her name just doesn't match meter very well, nor is it a particularly good rhyme, nor is she recognizable with "Maria" or "Theresia" alone, "Queen of Hungary" is an insult (though I might include it in a Fritzian one, since him insulting her is part of their story), and "Holy Roman Empress" is way too vague. I tried, MT! Sorry your husband made it in and you didn't!
That makes me realize that I lost Catherine, too, and she's actually a better meter fit than "Potemkin" to replace "Saladin", and she's more significant. I think I might go ahead and make that substitution.
I will say that Franklin shows up in mine, too, in the sole other line dealing with USian matters (in addition to the one about tax dodging). :)
Indeed! You have some US references and I have some Prussian references (quite a few, actually, more than I realized). But I was actually out walking yesterday and listening to the bardcore version, while mentally composing replies to your and cahn's comments, and the line "Gustav at the opera" popped into my head as a possible replacement for "Franklin's Philadelphia." It doesn't rhyme with "soldier–mania" quite as well, but it is more salon-relevant, and gets us more representation of an under-represented country. You notice I managed to work in Charles the Twelfth, Poltava, and Hats and Caps, Gustav's assassination would round out the Swedish 18th century nicely. Though I guess technically it was a masked ball at the Opera House, not an actual opera? Do we know if any operas were performed/scheduled to be performed that night?
-would you pronounce "Liberum veto" as a latin phrase, that is with the e in veto being sort of a long a sound?
Lady Mary, Catherine Charles the 12th and Bonnie Prince
This doesn't really rhyme? Did you intend that?
-Okay, I had always thought the American pronunciation of "Rothschild" was with a short i sound, but google tells me that this is the German pronunciation and the American pronunciation is with a long i?? IDK, I think I like it with the short i better
-Tsarevitch Alexei - I would Americanize this as "tsarevitch alexi" -- ?
-would you pronounce "Liberum veto" as a latin phrase, that is with the e in veto being sort of a long a sound?
I would not, I would Anglicize it, since "veto" is such a common English word.
Lady Mary, Catherine Charles the 12th and Bonnie Prince
This doesn't really rhyme? Did you intend that?
First answer: yes, since the original (medieval) version I was riffing was:
Henry Tudor, Saladin Richard and the Winter King
and I figured "Bonnie Prince" was a good metrical and semantic match for "Winter King", and the near-rhyme of Catherine/Prince was as good as Saladin/King.
Second answer: But now that you force me to scrutinize it more, I see that "Richard" and "Winter" have more in common than I thought. (I got nothing on "Henry Tudor" and "Saladin", though.)
I suppose "Charles the Sixth" (MT's dad) would go better with "Bonnie Prince", but Charles the Twelfth is *way* more important and interesting to me. Meh!
-Okay, I had always thought the American pronunciation of "Rothschild" was with a short i sound, but google tells me that this is the German pronunciation and the American pronunciation is with a long i?? IDK, I think I like it with the short i better
See, I always learned it as "Roth's child", which Wikipedia tells me is the American way.
My history teacher who first introduced us to the family was named Mrs. Roth, so I always remember the pronunciation of that word, because the class instantly started making jokes about her child.
Now, since I learned a bit of German, it does hurt a little inside not to say "rot Schild", but I feel like I have to say "Roth's child" when speaking English, otherwise 1) it's too pretentious even for me, 2) no one will know what I'm talking about.
-Tsarevitch Alexei - I would Americanize this as "tsarevitch alexi" -- ?
See, I would not, because I was in skating fandom umpteen years ago, and my favorite skater was Alexei Yagudin, and his name consistently got pronounced "A-lek-say" by commentators, even in English. Example.
Which is why I rhymed it with my Anglicization of "Châtelet."
ETA: No, I'm wrong, it's not consistent. I'm rewatching some videos and it seems to be a mixture of A-lek-say and Alexi. Well, I clearly imprinted on the one, hence the rhyme. ;)
OK! -- I think my advisor used to say Alexi actually :) I'll maybe try to do something in between the two sounds (which is what the Russian sounds like to me anyway)
I listened to a Russian speaker and he says "Tsarevitch" with a "k" sound at the end -- I would say "Tsarevitch" with a "ch" sound at the end but then I realized I also have never actually heard it said out loud so this is probably just me anglicizing it on my own.
and the near-rhyme of Catherine/Prince was as good as Saladin/King
See, I feel like Saladin/King is a near-rhyme but that Catherine/Prince does not sound like a near-rhyme to me at all! I feel like n/ng sounds much more similar than in/ince. Hmm, maybe I'll make a poll about this :)
I listened to a Russian speaker and he says "Tsarevitch" with a "k" sound at the end -- I would say "Tsarevitch" with a "ch" sound at the end but then I realized I also have never actually heard it said out loud so this is probably just me anglicizing it on my own.
Merriam Webster and I agree with you. :)
Wikipedia is telling me that in Russian it's this sound, which is closer to "ch" than any other English sound. I'm curious where you heard the "k" at the end?
See, I feel like Saladin/King is a near-rhyme but that Catherine/Prince does not sound like a near-rhyme to me at all! I feel like n/ng sounds much more similar than in/ince. Hmm, maybe I'll make a poll about this :)
Huh. I feel like it's at least as good as most of my other near- and not-so-near-rhymes: pamphlet/head, trade/campaign, back/Bach, man/hats, sides/dies, -craft/Saxe, -quieu/coups, Vienna/Encyclopedia, -burg/burn, cold/coats, -rists/Fritz, Versailles/Jacobites, ships/digs, forms/more/wars. I was surprised you chose to query Catherine/Prince out of that list!
I really ended up leaning more on assonance than on rhyme in this one.
Huh, okay, now that I go back and look it's apparently just one clip that is a Bad Clip :)
pamphlet/head,
This one only works because of the rhythm, where let has equal stress with head, and t and d being paired consonants.
trade/campaign,
Yeah, this one's pretty iffy. It doesn't ping me as hard because of the triple trade-campaign-made.
back/Bach,
I mean. Who among us has not tried to rhyme back and Bach at some point? :P
man/hats,
I... did not realize that man and hats were supposed to rhyme :P I thought it was Telemachus and hats, which is not much better but at least has two voiceless consonants plus s at the end :P
sides/dies,
This one works nicely because of the transposition! :D
-craft/Saxe,
Yeah, this one is pretty iffy.
-quieu/coups,
Oh, I thought this one was actually a brilliant almost-rhyme! It works because in French it would actually rhyme, no? so in English you just barely pronounce that s :)
Vienna/Encyclopedia,
Aw, they both end in the same vowel, my standards are not high :D
-burg/burn
Gotta say this one is not my favorite
cold/coats,
Yeah... okay, yeah :P
-rists/Fritz,
I actually didn't see those were supposed to rhyme, lol, but wits and Fritz is great!
Versailles/Jacobites,
This one I like. I think it works because the t in Jacobites is not so stressed? maybe? Or maybe because I get a kick out of assonance with different spelling!
I mean. Who among us has not tried to rhyme back and Bach at some point? :P
:'D
Now I'm imagining Selena raising her hand and thinking, "Only every German ever?" :PP
-craft/Saxe,
Yeah, this one is pretty iffy.
That one works really well for me, but only because I Anglicize "Saxe" to be "sax" like the instrument, and then it feels like the Sixth/Prince pair I proposed earlier. If I tried doing a "socks" pronunciation, any similarity to "craft" would vanish.
It works because in French it would actually rhyme, no?
Huh. Not for me. For me it works for the same reason "homicide" and "regicides" work: sometimes there's a stray plural at the end, and you gotta do what you gotta do.
-burg/burn
Gotta say this one is not my favorite
That one is me copying the medieval Gutenberg/burn rhyme as closely as I can!
ships/digs
Yeah, idk why this doesn't bother me as much
This works for me the same way my trade/campaign and the medieval pikes/knights (which admittedly is made stronger by Hussites) work.
man/hats,
I... did not realize that man and hats were supposed to rhyme :P
Well, obviously they don't rhyme, much as "Notre Dame" and "Afghanistan" don't rhyme, but what I tried to do there was pick a pair that had approximately the same level of similarity as "Notre Dame" and "Afghanistan". There are quite a few non-rhyming-but-vaguely-similar pairs in the medieval version, like Fechtbuch/Seljuks, which I used as a baseline for the amount of flexibility I allowed myself. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of relying on assonance rather than strict rhymes makes this more of an earworm than pure rhymes would. But that is cog sci speculation. ;)
Finally, I want to point out that for some dialects (mine :P), "Saladin" and "king" not only have a different consonant at the end, but a different vowel, and thus don't even resemble a rhyme. To me it's the equivalent of trying to rhyme "din" and "keep". Like, at that point you've not only abandoned rhyming but also assonance, and are basically just asking me to pretend. :P
And yes, having a minority dialect does mean I'm often annoyed by song rhymes...but it also means I'm extra excited when I find a song that rhymes words that *I* think rhyme. I start going, "See? See! That is a *correct* rhyme! You sing the song of my people!"
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Re: We didn't start the fire, 18th century version
Date: 2024-07-29 05:27 pm (UTC)Francis Stephen of Lorraine
George the 3rd has gone insane
Independence
Incognito, Duke of Marlborough
Whiff of grapeshot, Wolfgang Mozart
Cameralism, Reign of Terror
Sturm und Drang, Romanticism
Liberum veto
Adam Smith, pamphlet
Antoinette without a head
Plenty here to read
Pamela, Voltaire's Candide
Victory with Washington
Painting Emma Hamilton
Rococo, phlogiston
Johnson writes a lexicon
We did not start the fire
It was always burning as the world was turning
We did not start the fire
No, we did not light it, but we tried to fight it
Lady Mary, Potemkin
Charles the 12th and Bonnie Prince
Colonies, slave trade
Eugene on campaign
Rousseau, Diderot
Casanova, Crusoe
Edward Gibbon
Rothschild fortune made
Hussars horseback
Johann Sebastian Bach
Siege of Dresden, Rights of Man
Telemachus, Caps and Hats
Grand Tour, Corsica
Prussian muskets, Oglethorpe
Louverture, Pompadour
Battle of Poltava!
We did not start the fire
It was always burning as the world was turning
We did not start the fire
No, we did not light it, but we tried to fight it
Spanish Bourbons, Poniatowski
Struensee, Stanislaus Leszczynski
Savoy changing sides
Painfully the Sun King dies
Amber Room, Wollstonecraft
Gulliver, Maurice de Saxe
Treatise by Montesquieu
Several Russian palace coups
Guillotine, Vienna
French Encyclopedia
Tsarevitch Alexei
Émilie du Châtelet
Potsdam, Petersburg
Turk ships at Chesma burn
Great Frost, too cold
Panic, it's the Redcoats!
We did not start the fire
It was always burning as the world was turning
We did not start the fire
No, we did not light it, but we tried to fight it
Salonistes, satirists
French is spoken everywhere
Famous wits, Old Fritz
Saxony invasion
Franklin's Philadelphia
Giant soldier–mania
Meissen, Versailles
Executing Jacobites
That's Tsar Peter building ships
Scientific Pompeii digs
Black plague, go away
What else do I dare to say?
We did not start the fire
It was always burning as the world was turning
We did not start the fire
No, we did not light it, but we tried to fight it
Porcelain, Bonaparte
Hapless Damiens torn apart
Silkworms, Hochkirch,
Second round: Falkirk
Bleeding counts as medicine
Orlovs oust a sovereign
Washout of the Medici
British navy rules the sea
Pragmatic Sanction
Fake memoirs are fiction
Minden, Maxen
Habsburgs, Brandenburg
Joseph clawing back reforms
Once-great Poland is no more
Curse all these succession wars
I can't take it anymore!
We did not start the fire
It was always burning as the world was turning
We did not start the fire
But when we are gone, it shall still burn on and on and on
We did not start the fire
It was always burning as the world was turning
We did not start the fire
No we did not light it, but we tried to fight it
"Pamela" is next to "Voltaire's Candide" for reasons best known to salon. :D Likewise, I think Fritz would appreciate rhyming and alliterating with "famous wits."
I lip-synced the results while listening to the bardcore version, and there are only a few deviations from meter, and I think all can be handled by stretching out a syllable or pronouncing all syllables with equal weight. This version is definitely easier to sing along to than my first draft.
It also slants American, obviously, where Selena slanted Prussian. I tried to minimize overlap between our songs, but I did borrow "porcelain" (good thinking!).
Re: We didn't start the fire, 18th century version
Date: 2024-07-30 03:57 am (UTC)What about "Another Russian palace coup"?
(I am visiting family right now and don't have the stuff I need to experiment with the music, so no progress right now from my end. Going home soon though!)
Re: We didn't start the fire, 18th century version
Date: 2024-07-31 02:24 pm (UTC)Not only does it fit the meter better, but I'm pleased I managed to work in some catchier lines like:
Rousseau, Diderot,
Casanova, Crusoe
I'd rather have "Defoe" than "Crusoe", but "Crusoe" near-rhymes with "Rousseau" (or at least they can be rhymed better when singing than speaking) and alliterates with "Casanova", so "Crusoe" it is!
What about "Another Russian palace coup"?
I had tried it, but it didn't fit "Seven papal regicides," having an extra syllable. You see, my whole MO was, "I have no idea how to create an earworm, but these people obviously do, so copy what they did as CLOSELY as possible!!"
That said, it works by itself, being iambic, and does rhyme better with "Montesquieu", so if you think it sounds better, go for it! (The singer gets a say in what sounds better. ;))
I am visiting family right now and don't have the stuff I need to experiment with the music, so no progress right now from my end.
This is good, because I'm still tweaking! (I wanted to tell you not to spend too much time practicing pronunciation on mine and to start with Selena's, because I had a feeling my second draft was going to be substantially different than my first, and it was!)
Reach out to me when you're ready to start practicing, and we can settle on a finalized version. This is going to be fun!
(Though I do sometimes feel like that Conan satire of GRRM doing being willing to do literally anything else besides finish the next book. Mildred: will do literally anything rather than finish writing about Peter Keith and Fredersdorf!)
Re: We didn't start the fire, 18th century version
Date: 2024-07-30 07:13 am (UTC)Fake memoirs are fiction
As we had plenty of opportunity to find out. Several times. BTW, as what do we count Henri de Catt? It's definitely RPF, but it's not a fake memoir in the sense that the fake Eugene/Austrian Trenck/Maintenon etc. memoirs are fake in that these are really the memoirs by the person whose name is on the title page, and he was Fritz' reader.
Yay for Emma Hamilton (and thus painter Romney) showing up in this version! I felt a bit guilty about not being able to work any of the Hervey stuff in, as I now have a soft spot for the entire mad clan. But then as you say, mine was Prussian-centric. I will say that Franklin shows up in mine, too, in the sole other line dealing with USian matters (in addition to the one about tax dodging). :)
Re: We didn't start the fire, 18th century version
Date: 2024-07-31 02:04 pm (UTC)It occurs to me he'd also appreciate near-rhyming with "satirists" two lines up. And invading Saxony in the next line. (Oh, Fritz.)
I'm also tickled about "Giant soldier–mania" - so FW did find his way into your version!
He did! You took Voltaire-mania, and I was pleased when I remembered FW, then was able to make the meter work by dint of using "giant" instead of "tall". (So many good ideas I had to discard because of uncooperative meter or rhyme.)
BTW, as what do we count Henri de Catt?
Good question. Fictionalized but not fake memoirs, maybe?
Yay for Emma Hamilton (and thus painter Romney) showing up in this version!
Yeah, it was a two-for-one deal, and I knew you'd like it! :D
I felt a bit guilty about not being able to work any of the Hervey stuff in
I feel guilty about not working in Maria Theresia! I tried in the first draft, but her name just doesn't match meter very well, nor is it a particularly good rhyme, nor is she recognizable with "Maria" or "Theresia" alone, "Queen of Hungary" is an insult (though I might include it in a Fritzian one, since him insulting her is part of their story), and "Holy Roman Empress" is way too vague. I tried, MT! Sorry your husband made it in and you didn't!
That makes me realize that I lost Catherine, too, and she's actually a better meter fit than "Potemkin" to replace "Saladin", and she's more significant. I think I might go ahead and make that substitution.
I will say that Franklin shows up in mine, too, in the sole other line dealing with USian matters (in addition to the one about tax dodging). :)
Indeed! You have some US references and I have some Prussian references (quite a few, actually, more than I realized). But I was actually out walking yesterday and listening to the bardcore version, while mentally composing replies to your and
Re: We didn't start the fire, 18th century version
Date: 2024-08-20 05:38 am (UTC)-would you pronounce "Liberum veto" as a latin phrase, that is with the e in veto being sort of a long a sound?
Lady Mary, Catherine
Charles the 12th and Bonnie Prince
This doesn't really rhyme? Did you intend that?
-Okay, I had always thought the American pronunciation of "Rothschild" was with a short i sound, but google tells me that this is the German pronunciation and the American pronunciation is with a long i?? IDK, I think I like it with the short i better
-Tsarevitch Alexei - I would Americanize this as "tsarevitch alexi" -- ?
Re: We didn't start the fire, 18th century version
Date: 2024-08-20 04:00 pm (UTC)I would not, I would Anglicize it, since "veto" is such a common English word.
Lady Mary, Catherine
Charles the 12th and Bonnie Prince
This doesn't really rhyme? Did you intend that?
First answer: yes, since the original (medieval) version I was riffing was:
Henry Tudor, Saladin
Richard and the Winter King
and I figured "Bonnie Prince" was a good metrical and semantic match for "Winter King", and the near-rhyme of Catherine/Prince was as good as Saladin/King.
Second answer: But now that you force me to scrutinize it more, I see that "Richard" and "Winter" have more in common than I thought. (I got nothing on "Henry Tudor" and "Saladin", though.)
I suppose "Charles the Sixth" (MT's dad) would go better with "Bonnie Prince", but Charles the Twelfth is *way* more important and interesting to me. Meh!
-Okay, I had always thought the American pronunciation of "Rothschild" was with a short i sound, but google tells me that this is the German pronunciation and the American pronunciation is with a long i?? IDK, I think I like it with the short i better
See, I always learned it as "Roth's child", which Wikipedia tells me is the American way.
My history teacher who first introduced us to the family was named Mrs. Roth, so I always remember the pronunciation of that word, because the class instantly started making jokes about her child.
Now, since I learned a bit of German, it does hurt a little inside not to say "rot Schild", but I feel like I have to say "Roth's child" when speaking English, otherwise 1) it's too pretentious even for me, 2) no one will know what I'm talking about.
-Tsarevitch Alexei - I would Americanize this as "tsarevitch alexi" -- ?
See, I would not, because I was in skating fandom umpteen years ago, and my favorite skater was Alexei Yagudin, and his name consistently got pronounced "A-lek-say" by commentators, even in English. Example.
Which is why I rhymed it with my Anglicization of "Châtelet."
ETA: No, I'm wrong, it's not consistent. I'm rewatching some videos and it seems to be a mixture of A-lek-say and Alexi. Well, I clearly imprinted on the one, hence the rhyme. ;)
Yay music in progress! \o/
Re: We didn't start the fire, 18th century version
Date: 2024-08-20 09:17 pm (UTC)I listened to a Russian speaker and he says "Tsarevitch" with a "k" sound at the end -- I would say "Tsarevitch" with a "ch" sound at the end but then I realized I also have never actually heard it said out loud so this is probably just me anglicizing it on my own.
and the near-rhyme of Catherine/Prince was as good as Saladin/King
See, I feel like Saladin/King is a near-rhyme but that Catherine/Prince does not sound like a near-rhyme to me at all! I feel like n/ng sounds much more similar than in/ince. Hmm, maybe I'll make a poll about this :)
Re: We didn't start the fire, 18th century version
Date: 2024-08-20 09:47 pm (UTC)Merriam Webster and I agree with you. :)
Wikipedia is telling me that in Russian it's this sound, which is closer to "ch" than any other English sound. I'm curious where you heard the "k" at the end?
See, I feel like Saladin/King is a near-rhyme but that Catherine/Prince does not sound like a near-rhyme to me at all! I feel like n/ng sounds much more similar than in/ince. Hmm, maybe I'll make a poll about this :)
Huh. I feel like it's at least as good as most of my other near- and not-so-near-rhymes: pamphlet/head, trade/campaign, back/Bach, man/hats, sides/dies, -craft/Saxe, -quieu/coups, Vienna/Encyclopedia, -burg/burn, cold/coats, -rists/Fritz, Versailles/Jacobites, ships/digs, forms/more/wars. I was surprised you chose to query Catherine/Prince out of that list!
I really ended up leaning more on assonance than on rhyme in this one.
Re: We didn't start the fire, 18th century version
Date: 2024-08-21 05:35 am (UTC)pamphlet/head,
This one only works because of the rhythm, where let has equal stress with head, and t and d being paired consonants.
trade/campaign,
Yeah, this one's pretty iffy. It doesn't ping me as hard because of the triple trade-campaign-made.
back/Bach,
I mean. Who among us has not tried to rhyme back and Bach at some point? :P
man/hats,
I... did not realize that man and hats were supposed to rhyme :P I thought it was Telemachus and hats, which is not much better but at least has two voiceless consonants plus s at the end :P
sides/dies,
This one works nicely because of the transposition! :D
-craft/Saxe,
Yeah, this one is pretty iffy.
-quieu/coups,
Oh, I thought this one was actually a brilliant almost-rhyme! It works because in French it would actually rhyme, no? so in English you just barely pronounce that s :)
Vienna/Encyclopedia,
Aw, they both end in the same vowel, my standards are not high :D
-burg/burn
Gotta say this one is not my favorite
cold/coats,
Yeah... okay, yeah :P
-rists/Fritz,
I actually didn't see those were supposed to rhyme, lol, but wits and Fritz is great!
Versailles/Jacobites,
This one I like. I think it works because the t in Jacobites is not so stressed? maybe? Or maybe because I get a kick out of assonance with different spelling!
ships/digs
Yeah, idk why this doesn't bother me as much
forms/more/wars
more/wars is great! Forms maybe not so much.
:)
Re: We didn't start the fire, 18th century version
Date: 2024-08-21 06:22 pm (UTC):'D
Now I'm imagining Selena raising her hand and thinking, "Only every German ever?" :PP
-craft/Saxe,
Yeah, this one is pretty iffy.
That one works really well for me, but only because I Anglicize "Saxe" to be "sax" like the instrument, and then it feels like the Sixth/Prince pair I proposed earlier. If I tried doing a "socks" pronunciation, any similarity to "craft" would vanish.
It works because in French it would actually rhyme, no?
Huh. Not for me. For me it works for the same reason "homicide" and "regicides" work: sometimes there's a stray plural at the end, and you gotta do what you gotta do.
-burg/burn
Gotta say this one is not my favorite
That one is me copying the medieval Gutenberg/burn rhyme as closely as I can!
ships/digs
Yeah, idk why this doesn't bother me as much
This works for me the same way my trade/campaign and the medieval pikes/knights (which admittedly is made stronger by Hussites) work.
man/hats,
I... did not realize that man and hats were supposed to rhyme :P
Well, obviously they don't rhyme, much as "Notre Dame" and "Afghanistan" don't rhyme, but what I tried to do there was pick a pair that had approximately the same level of similarity as "Notre Dame" and "Afghanistan". There are quite a few non-rhyming-but-vaguely-similar pairs in the medieval version, like Fechtbuch/Seljuks, which I used as a baseline for the amount of flexibility I allowed myself. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of relying on assonance rather than strict rhymes makes this more of an earworm than pure rhymes would. But that is cog sci speculation. ;)
Finally, I want to point out that for some dialects (mine :P), "Saladin" and "king" not only have a different consonant at the end, but a different vowel, and thus don't even resemble a rhyme. To me it's the equivalent of trying to rhyme "din" and "keep". Like, at that point you've not only abandoned rhyming but also assonance, and are basically just asking me to pretend. :P
And yes, having a minority dialect does mean I'm often annoyed by song rhymes...but it also means I'm extra excited when I find a song that rhymes words that *I* think rhyme. I start going, "See? See! That is a *correct* rhyme! You sing the song of my people!"
:'D
Re: We didn't start the fire, 18th century version
Date: 2024-08-21 06:25 pm (UTC)Back to work...
Re: We didn't start the fire, 18th century version
Date: 2024-08-21 06:28 pm (UTC)