-would you pronounce "Liberum veto" as a latin phrase, that is with the e in veto being sort of a long a sound?
I would not, I would Anglicize it, since "veto" is such a common English word.
Lady Mary, Catherine Charles the 12th and Bonnie Prince
This doesn't really rhyme? Did you intend that?
First answer: yes, since the original (medieval) version I was riffing was:
Henry Tudor, Saladin Richard and the Winter King
and I figured "Bonnie Prince" was a good metrical and semantic match for "Winter King", and the near-rhyme of Catherine/Prince was as good as Saladin/King.
Second answer: But now that you force me to scrutinize it more, I see that "Richard" and "Winter" have more in common than I thought. (I got nothing on "Henry Tudor" and "Saladin", though.)
I suppose "Charles the Sixth" (MT's dad) would go better with "Bonnie Prince", but Charles the Twelfth is *way* more important and interesting to me. Meh!
-Okay, I had always thought the American pronunciation of "Rothschild" was with a short i sound, but google tells me that this is the German pronunciation and the American pronunciation is with a long i?? IDK, I think I like it with the short i better
See, I always learned it as "Roth's child", which Wikipedia tells me is the American way.
My history teacher who first introduced us to the family was named Mrs. Roth, so I always remember the pronunciation of that word, because the class instantly started making jokes about her child.
Now, since I learned a bit of German, it does hurt a little inside not to say "rot Schild", but I feel like I have to say "Roth's child" when speaking English, otherwise 1) it's too pretentious even for me, 2) no one will know what I'm talking about.
-Tsarevitch Alexei - I would Americanize this as "tsarevitch alexi" -- ?
See, I would not, because I was in skating fandom umpteen years ago, and my favorite skater was Alexei Yagudin, and his name consistently got pronounced "A-lek-say" by commentators, even in English. Example.
Which is why I rhymed it with my Anglicization of "Châtelet."
ETA: No, I'm wrong, it's not consistent. I'm rewatching some videos and it seems to be a mixture of A-lek-say and Alexi. Well, I clearly imprinted on the one, hence the rhyme. ;)
OK! -- I think my advisor used to say Alexi actually :) I'll maybe try to do something in between the two sounds (which is what the Russian sounds like to me anyway)
I listened to a Russian speaker and he says "Tsarevitch" with a "k" sound at the end -- I would say "Tsarevitch" with a "ch" sound at the end but then I realized I also have never actually heard it said out loud so this is probably just me anglicizing it on my own.
and the near-rhyme of Catherine/Prince was as good as Saladin/King
See, I feel like Saladin/King is a near-rhyme but that Catherine/Prince does not sound like a near-rhyme to me at all! I feel like n/ng sounds much more similar than in/ince. Hmm, maybe I'll make a poll about this :)
I listened to a Russian speaker and he says "Tsarevitch" with a "k" sound at the end -- I would say "Tsarevitch" with a "ch" sound at the end but then I realized I also have never actually heard it said out loud so this is probably just me anglicizing it on my own.
Merriam Webster and I agree with you. :)
Wikipedia is telling me that in Russian it's this sound, which is closer to "ch" than any other English sound. I'm curious where you heard the "k" at the end?
See, I feel like Saladin/King is a near-rhyme but that Catherine/Prince does not sound like a near-rhyme to me at all! I feel like n/ng sounds much more similar than in/ince. Hmm, maybe I'll make a poll about this :)
Huh. I feel like it's at least as good as most of my other near- and not-so-near-rhymes: pamphlet/head, trade/campaign, back/Bach, man/hats, sides/dies, -craft/Saxe, -quieu/coups, Vienna/Encyclopedia, -burg/burn, cold/coats, -rists/Fritz, Versailles/Jacobites, ships/digs, forms/more/wars. I was surprised you chose to query Catherine/Prince out of that list!
I really ended up leaning more on assonance than on rhyme in this one.
Huh, okay, now that I go back and look it's apparently just one clip that is a Bad Clip :)
pamphlet/head,
This one only works because of the rhythm, where let has equal stress with head, and t and d being paired consonants.
trade/campaign,
Yeah, this one's pretty iffy. It doesn't ping me as hard because of the triple trade-campaign-made.
back/Bach,
I mean. Who among us has not tried to rhyme back and Bach at some point? :P
man/hats,
I... did not realize that man and hats were supposed to rhyme :P I thought it was Telemachus and hats, which is not much better but at least has two voiceless consonants plus s at the end :P
sides/dies,
This one works nicely because of the transposition! :D
-craft/Saxe,
Yeah, this one is pretty iffy.
-quieu/coups,
Oh, I thought this one was actually a brilliant almost-rhyme! It works because in French it would actually rhyme, no? so in English you just barely pronounce that s :)
Vienna/Encyclopedia,
Aw, they both end in the same vowel, my standards are not high :D
-burg/burn
Gotta say this one is not my favorite
cold/coats,
Yeah... okay, yeah :P
-rists/Fritz,
I actually didn't see those were supposed to rhyme, lol, but wits and Fritz is great!
Versailles/Jacobites,
This one I like. I think it works because the t in Jacobites is not so stressed? maybe? Or maybe because I get a kick out of assonance with different spelling!
I mean. Who among us has not tried to rhyme back and Bach at some point? :P
:'D
Now I'm imagining Selena raising her hand and thinking, "Only every German ever?" :PP
-craft/Saxe,
Yeah, this one is pretty iffy.
That one works really well for me, but only because I Anglicize "Saxe" to be "sax" like the instrument, and then it feels like the Sixth/Prince pair I proposed earlier. If I tried doing a "socks" pronunciation, any similarity to "craft" would vanish.
It works because in French it would actually rhyme, no?
Huh. Not for me. For me it works for the same reason "homicide" and "regicides" work: sometimes there's a stray plural at the end, and you gotta do what you gotta do.
-burg/burn
Gotta say this one is not my favorite
That one is me copying the medieval Gutenberg/burn rhyme as closely as I can!
ships/digs
Yeah, idk why this doesn't bother me as much
This works for me the same way my trade/campaign and the medieval pikes/knights (which admittedly is made stronger by Hussites) work.
man/hats,
I... did not realize that man and hats were supposed to rhyme :P
Well, obviously they don't rhyme, much as "Notre Dame" and "Afghanistan" don't rhyme, but what I tried to do there was pick a pair that had approximately the same level of similarity as "Notre Dame" and "Afghanistan". There are quite a few non-rhyming-but-vaguely-similar pairs in the medieval version, like Fechtbuch/Seljuks, which I used as a baseline for the amount of flexibility I allowed myself. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of relying on assonance rather than strict rhymes makes this more of an earworm than pure rhymes would. But that is cog sci speculation. ;)
Finally, I want to point out that for some dialects (mine :P), "Saladin" and "king" not only have a different consonant at the end, but a different vowel, and thus don't even resemble a rhyme. To me it's the equivalent of trying to rhyme "din" and "keep". Like, at that point you've not only abandoned rhyming but also assonance, and are basically just asking me to pretend. :P
And yes, having a minority dialect does mean I'm often annoyed by song rhymes...but it also means I'm extra excited when I find a song that rhymes words that *I* think rhyme. I start going, "See? See! That is a *correct* rhyme! You sing the song of my people!"
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Re: We didn't start the fire, 18th century version
Date: 2024-08-20 04:00 pm (UTC)I would not, I would Anglicize it, since "veto" is such a common English word.
Lady Mary, Catherine
Charles the 12th and Bonnie Prince
This doesn't really rhyme? Did you intend that?
First answer: yes, since the original (medieval) version I was riffing was:
Henry Tudor, Saladin
Richard and the Winter King
and I figured "Bonnie Prince" was a good metrical and semantic match for "Winter King", and the near-rhyme of Catherine/Prince was as good as Saladin/King.
Second answer: But now that you force me to scrutinize it more, I see that "Richard" and "Winter" have more in common than I thought. (I got nothing on "Henry Tudor" and "Saladin", though.)
I suppose "Charles the Sixth" (MT's dad) would go better with "Bonnie Prince", but Charles the Twelfth is *way* more important and interesting to me. Meh!
-Okay, I had always thought the American pronunciation of "Rothschild" was with a short i sound, but google tells me that this is the German pronunciation and the American pronunciation is with a long i?? IDK, I think I like it with the short i better
See, I always learned it as "Roth's child", which Wikipedia tells me is the American way.
My history teacher who first introduced us to the family was named Mrs. Roth, so I always remember the pronunciation of that word, because the class instantly started making jokes about her child.
Now, since I learned a bit of German, it does hurt a little inside not to say "rot Schild", but I feel like I have to say "Roth's child" when speaking English, otherwise 1) it's too pretentious even for me, 2) no one will know what I'm talking about.
-Tsarevitch Alexei - I would Americanize this as "tsarevitch alexi" -- ?
See, I would not, because I was in skating fandom umpteen years ago, and my favorite skater was Alexei Yagudin, and his name consistently got pronounced "A-lek-say" by commentators, even in English. Example.
Which is why I rhymed it with my Anglicization of "Châtelet."
ETA: No, I'm wrong, it's not consistent. I'm rewatching some videos and it seems to be a mixture of A-lek-say and Alexi. Well, I clearly imprinted on the one, hence the rhyme. ;)
Yay music in progress! \o/
Re: We didn't start the fire, 18th century version
Date: 2024-08-20 09:17 pm (UTC)I listened to a Russian speaker and he says "Tsarevitch" with a "k" sound at the end -- I would say "Tsarevitch" with a "ch" sound at the end but then I realized I also have never actually heard it said out loud so this is probably just me anglicizing it on my own.
and the near-rhyme of Catherine/Prince was as good as Saladin/King
See, I feel like Saladin/King is a near-rhyme but that Catherine/Prince does not sound like a near-rhyme to me at all! I feel like n/ng sounds much more similar than in/ince. Hmm, maybe I'll make a poll about this :)
Re: We didn't start the fire, 18th century version
Date: 2024-08-20 09:47 pm (UTC)Merriam Webster and I agree with you. :)
Wikipedia is telling me that in Russian it's this sound, which is closer to "ch" than any other English sound. I'm curious where you heard the "k" at the end?
See, I feel like Saladin/King is a near-rhyme but that Catherine/Prince does not sound like a near-rhyme to me at all! I feel like n/ng sounds much more similar than in/ince. Hmm, maybe I'll make a poll about this :)
Huh. I feel like it's at least as good as most of my other near- and not-so-near-rhymes: pamphlet/head, trade/campaign, back/Bach, man/hats, sides/dies, -craft/Saxe, -quieu/coups, Vienna/Encyclopedia, -burg/burn, cold/coats, -rists/Fritz, Versailles/Jacobites, ships/digs, forms/more/wars. I was surprised you chose to query Catherine/Prince out of that list!
I really ended up leaning more on assonance than on rhyme in this one.
Re: We didn't start the fire, 18th century version
Date: 2024-08-21 05:35 am (UTC)pamphlet/head,
This one only works because of the rhythm, where let has equal stress with head, and t and d being paired consonants.
trade/campaign,
Yeah, this one's pretty iffy. It doesn't ping me as hard because of the triple trade-campaign-made.
back/Bach,
I mean. Who among us has not tried to rhyme back and Bach at some point? :P
man/hats,
I... did not realize that man and hats were supposed to rhyme :P I thought it was Telemachus and hats, which is not much better but at least has two voiceless consonants plus s at the end :P
sides/dies,
This one works nicely because of the transposition! :D
-craft/Saxe,
Yeah, this one is pretty iffy.
-quieu/coups,
Oh, I thought this one was actually a brilliant almost-rhyme! It works because in French it would actually rhyme, no? so in English you just barely pronounce that s :)
Vienna/Encyclopedia,
Aw, they both end in the same vowel, my standards are not high :D
-burg/burn
Gotta say this one is not my favorite
cold/coats,
Yeah... okay, yeah :P
-rists/Fritz,
I actually didn't see those were supposed to rhyme, lol, but wits and Fritz is great!
Versailles/Jacobites,
This one I like. I think it works because the t in Jacobites is not so stressed? maybe? Or maybe because I get a kick out of assonance with different spelling!
ships/digs
Yeah, idk why this doesn't bother me as much
forms/more/wars
more/wars is great! Forms maybe not so much.
:)
Re: We didn't start the fire, 18th century version
Date: 2024-08-21 06:22 pm (UTC):'D
Now I'm imagining Selena raising her hand and thinking, "Only every German ever?" :PP
-craft/Saxe,
Yeah, this one is pretty iffy.
That one works really well for me, but only because I Anglicize "Saxe" to be "sax" like the instrument, and then it feels like the Sixth/Prince pair I proposed earlier. If I tried doing a "socks" pronunciation, any similarity to "craft" would vanish.
It works because in French it would actually rhyme, no?
Huh. Not for me. For me it works for the same reason "homicide" and "regicides" work: sometimes there's a stray plural at the end, and you gotta do what you gotta do.
-burg/burn
Gotta say this one is not my favorite
That one is me copying the medieval Gutenberg/burn rhyme as closely as I can!
ships/digs
Yeah, idk why this doesn't bother me as much
This works for me the same way my trade/campaign and the medieval pikes/knights (which admittedly is made stronger by Hussites) work.
man/hats,
I... did not realize that man and hats were supposed to rhyme :P
Well, obviously they don't rhyme, much as "Notre Dame" and "Afghanistan" don't rhyme, but what I tried to do there was pick a pair that had approximately the same level of similarity as "Notre Dame" and "Afghanistan". There are quite a few non-rhyming-but-vaguely-similar pairs in the medieval version, like Fechtbuch/Seljuks, which I used as a baseline for the amount of flexibility I allowed myself. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of relying on assonance rather than strict rhymes makes this more of an earworm than pure rhymes would. But that is cog sci speculation. ;)
Finally, I want to point out that for some dialects (mine :P), "Saladin" and "king" not only have a different consonant at the end, but a different vowel, and thus don't even resemble a rhyme. To me it's the equivalent of trying to rhyme "din" and "keep". Like, at that point you've not only abandoned rhyming but also assonance, and are basically just asking me to pretend. :P
And yes, having a minority dialect does mean I'm often annoyed by song rhymes...but it also means I'm extra excited when I find a song that rhymes words that *I* think rhyme. I start going, "See? See! That is a *correct* rhyme! You sing the song of my people!"
:'D
Re: We didn't start the fire, 18th century version
Date: 2024-08-21 06:25 pm (UTC)Back to work...
Re: We didn't start the fire, 18th century version
Date: 2024-08-21 06:28 pm (UTC)