cahn | Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 48

Some awesome historical RPF

candyheartsex stories for meeeeee (or by me, in one tiny case) with historical characters! I'm just going to note whom the stories are about here. They are all so good!!

Anne Boleyn/Catherine of Aragorn
Frances Howard and Frances Coke (or: James I's court was basically a HOTBED of scandal, omg)

And two that are also historical RPF but also consistent with the Jude Morgan novel The King's Touch, which is an excellent historical novel narrated by James ("Jemmy") Scott, Duke of Monmouth, Charles II's illegitimate son.

Princess Henrietta of England (Charles II's sister and wife of Philippe I duc d'Orleans)
James of Monmouth/William/Mary

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

mildred_of_midgard

This was a great find!

as I haven't yet read a biography of G3, though I mean to in the long run.

Please do, and please summarize for salon when you do!

Fritz of Wales would die three years later and as this letter is a "just in case I'm not around when you reach your majority" thing, might have had an inkling he wasn't the healthiest?

Oof, it sounds like it. Wikipedia tells me he probably died of a pulmonary embolism, so yeah, maybe. Sad.

Some fascinating details: G1 is referred to by Fritz of Wales as "my Grand-Father, and Best Friend", and the monarch future G3 is supposed to model himself after. Now given that Fritz of Wales actually did see his grandfather during his childhood and youth, as opposed to his parents, when growing up in Hannover because G1 went visiting ever so often, it makes sense they had a relationship

It is not uncommon in dysfunctional families for people who don't get along with their parents to either get along better with their grandparents if they're alive, or to romanticize them if they're not. The lure of the alternate parental figure is strong.

Which leads me to Fritz. He may have trashed F1 in his history books and praised his father, but I'm willing to bet that if F1 had been king while Fritz was growing up, and FW had just been crown prince...F1 would have been the new SD.

Fritz of Wales mentions he gives this letter to his wife, G3's mother, and the mention here and in other parts is always affectionate, so hopefully despite the fact he put her through a ghastly birth to annoy his parents, he otherwise proved to be an okay husband.

Let's hope! Of course, deranged alcoholic Frederik V of Denmark wrote some very affectionate letters to his Moltke...

If you can be without War, let not Your ambition draw you into it. A good deal of the
National Debt must be pay’d off, before England enters into a War:

Don't worry, Fritz of Wales! Your son will learn all about the national debt thanks to the Seven Years' War (which I note that his father and his father's government were the ones who got Britain into), and attempts to pay it off will cost him and his government some colonies (thirteen, to be precise).

Also, this got me wondering what year this was written: 1748/9. So just at the end of the War of the Austrian Succession. Makes sense!

cahn, the 1748/49 means 1748 in the Julian calendar (which Britain was on until 1752) and 1749 on the Gregorian calendar (which most other European countries were on by that point--Russia and Sweden being notable exceptions). Since the calendars were not only offset by 12 days, but the new year started March 25 in Britain and January 1 elsewhere, January 13, 1748 in Britain was January 25, 1749 elsewhere. This was frequently marked by listing both years in the "1748/9" style.

Certainly G2 never got over his suspicion Fritz of Prussia might get grabby with Hannover one day, and there was that RP between Heinrich and AW where Heinrich played Fritz and did just that...

Yep, that's a significant theme in 1750s foreign policy! At one point in 1752, G2 was giving his troops orders about what to do in case of a Prussian invasion. And even in the 1760s, Fritz is supposed (according to Joseph) to have told Joseph that they didn't need to worry about Britain, because Hanover could always be invaded at need.

Our gangster with good PR.

But all in all, Fritz of Wales comes across as someone who has definite ideas and ideals about how to be King who are anything but silly or frivolous; a counterpoint to his image in vengeful Hervey's memoirs, I'd say.

Indeed! Thank you for sharing.

From:

selenak

Which leads me to Fritz. He may have trashed F1 in his history books and praised his father, but I'm willing to bet that if F1 had been king while Fritz was growing up, and FW had just been crown prince...F1 would have been the new SD.

You know, I think you're right. A living F1 would have been just the type to be an indulgent grandfather. At the very least he'd have offered a court where interest in literature, languages and music would have been regarded as cool and very becoming a prince, not shameful and effeminate.

Would have been a true test to FW's "A father is always right!" principle, though. I mean, he could chew SD out, but hardly his father and King. Might he have modified his principle to "a father is always right... except mine" like his cousin G2 did, or would he have gritted his teeth and endured HIS OLDEST SON returning from Grandpa with a silver flute and wearing the latest French fashion?

Don't worry, Fritz of Wales! Your son will learn all about the national debt thanks to the Seven Years' War (which I note that his father and his father's government were the ones who got Britain into), and attempts to pay it off will cost him and his government some colonies (thirteen, to be precise).

*snorts* Yankee Taxdodgers were not among the dangers Fritz of Wales could warn his son about. Alas.

From:

cahn

Might he have modified his principle to "a father is always right... except mine"

Yeah, I'm betting on this one. Pretty common for people to be hypocritical about this -- such and such should always be the case, unless of course it inconveniences ME or (as mildred has told me many times sets off stress reactions) messes with MY worldview!

From:

selenak

To be fair to FW, he famously gave F1 the kind of opulent funeral F1 would have wanted against his own inclinations and out of filial respect, and from what I recall from the correspondence between Grandma Sophie and FW, and Sophie and F1, despite young FW wanting to fight in the War of the Spanish Succession all the time, he took the traditional road of cajoling and pleading and enlisting his grandmother to persuade his father as opposed to argue with his father. Plus he did marry, and not marry, as his father wanted. All this being said, this was young teenage and early 20s FW. F1 died at just the right point when FW was ready to take over as King, so to speak. If F1 had lived long enough for FW to become increasingly impatient for kingdom reforming action (which he couldn't do as Crown Prince) while cooling his heels and to however inadvertendly spoil FW's dream of raising his eldest as a little FW replica - it might have been a far harsher test on FW's filial piety. (Cousin G2 had to wait far longer for the top job, by comparison.)

On a related note: arguably FW's (in)famous remark to Fritz that if his father had ever treated him the way he, FW, was treating Fritz, he'd have killed himself, is of course in itself telling: F1 (son of a harsh Dad who increasingly loathed him) would never have treated FW this way.

From:

cahn

Ha, well, I appreciate your being as fair even to FW as possible :P

On a related note: arguably FW's (in)famous remark to Fritz that if his father had ever treated him the way he, FW, was treating Fritz, he'd have killed himself, is of course in itself telling: F1 (son of a harsh Dad who increasingly loathed him) would never have treated FW this way.

:( Poor Fritz.

From:

selenak

No kidding. Also, before Mildred says it: when considering why FW found it easier to practice the „sons must always put their Dad‘s wishes first“ doctrine even when he was the son while cousin G2 did not and openly declared „Dads are always in the right, except mine!“, one should look at their respective father‘s type of parenting. G1 started out being distant to G2 during G2‘s childhood, and it went downwards from there, even disregarding the part where G2s and SD‘s mother gets locked up during their childhood by their Dad. Infamously, G1 after the big argument with (future) G2 apropos the godfather he imposed on G2‘s latest kid which led to a public spectacle of G2 refusing said Godfather in the church itself didn‘t just kick G2 and Caroline out of the palace, he took their (non Fritz of Wales) kids away from them and punished Caroline along with (future)G2 for being a loyal wife to G2 by forbidding her access to her kids as well for a good while. Meanwhile, F1: doesn‘t come across as a hands-on Dad in that we don‘t get reports about him hanging out with FW a lot during FW‘s childhood (it‘s SC who is arguing and fretting about teachers and FW‘s (lack of) learning and making him do ballet etc., but what paternal actions are recorded, like giving 12 years old FW Wusterhausen as his personal estate to do with what he wants are benevolent, his not wanting FW to go campaigning in the War of the Spanish Succession comes across as fear for FW‘s life in his letters to Sophie, and he certainly does not make an attempt to keep FW and SD from their babies for the few years his own life overlaps with that of his grandkids. It‘s far easier to be obedient towards a father who is kind to you and doesn‘t try to make you his replica. (Sidenote: except for the part where F1 made FW wear an exact copy of the Dauphin‘s wedding outfit for his marriage to SD as we know from the Hohenzollern letters to Sophie. Bet FW hated that. But it‘s still not the same as what G1 did to G2.)

From:

cahn

Ah, right! Ugh, G1 :(

except for the part where F1 made FW wear an exact copy of the Dauphin‘s wedding outfit for his marriage to SD

Heeee. Yes, not really the same :P (But I'm going to laugh at it.)