Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 46

[cahn]

Background: The kids' school has a topic for "Unit" every trimester that a lot of their work (reading, writing, some math) revolves around. These topics range from time/geographic periods ('Colonial America') to geography ('Asia') to science ('Space') to social science ('Business and Economics'). (I have some issues with this way of doing things, but that's a whole separate post.) Anyway, for Reasons, they have had to come up with a new topic this year, and E's 7/8 class is doing "World Fairs" as their new topic.

Me: I know E's teacher is all about World Fairs and I know she is great and will do a good job. But I feel like if we had a different teacher who wasn't so into World Fairs, they wouldn't do such a good job and another topic would be better.
Me: Like... the Enlightenment!
D: Heh, you could teach that! But you'd have to restrain yourself from making everything about Frederick the Great.
Me: But that's the thing! Everyone does relate to each other in this time period! Voltaire -- and his partner Émilie du Châtelet, who was heavily involved in the discourse of conservation of energy and momentum -- well, I've told you Voltaire had a thing with Fritz -- and then there's Empress Maria Theresa, who went to war with him a few times -- and Catherine the Great --
D, meditatively: You know --
Me: *am innocently not warned even though this is the same tone of voice that is often followed by, say, a bad pun*
D: -- it's impressive how everyone from this 'the Great' family is so famous!
Me: *splutters*
D, thoughtfully: But of course there's probably selection bias, as the ones who aren't famous don't get mentioned. You never see 'Bob the Great' in the history books...
Me: *splutters more*

Comments

Re: Løvenørn letters: Sept 2, 1730

[selenak]

Katte is thrown in prison with irons on his hands and feet. Did we know that? It's very plausible, but I know Wilhelmine has him writing a poem on the windowsill.

Wilhelmine isn't the only one, and I'm not talking about other memoirists. Remember Braunschweig envoy Stratemann? Unless I recall wrongly, he even gave us the same text of the poem, minus two lines. So allow me to doubt the irons on his hand and feet. I don't think the guy Nicolai talked to - the one who gave us the "the tyrant wants to see blood" quote, from Katte's regiment - mentions Katte being shackled, either. Now I know FW's gonna FW, but being clapped in iron would be extremely atypical for a prisoner of the nobility. (Unless he's Trenck after a previous successful escape, and the Trenck story in any version lives from Fritz being extra harsh there.) Allow me therefore to file this under the same type of rumor Guy Dickens reports of Fritz some weeks later, where he has him with wild growing hair and beard and getting starved, all incorrectly.

BTW, of course Stratemann is the Disney envoy and sole FW fan among envoys, but him in every report insisting Katte's pardon by the King and release is imminent until Katte loses head is a fascinating contrast to Dickens and Lövenörn insisting Fritz and Katte are in the dungeons and what not. Or in Vienna, which cracks me up. Of course it's the Protestant Danish envoy who's heard the rumor of evil Catholic Austrians taking Fritz to Vienna. (As if FW would have let them, or any other foreign nation who'd take punishment control from him.)

Lövenörn hating on Grumbkow: him and most people, though I think that as opposed to, say, Guy Dickens and Sir Charles Hotham the elder, I don't recall Grumbkow bothering with any face off/intrigues in the Danish direction.

Re: Løvenørn letters: Sept 2, 1730

[mildred_of_midgard]

Re irons: good points all! I remembered that there was another source besides Wilhelmine, but I couldn't remember if it was Pöllnitz, who's not an independent source. Stratemann, right!

Or in Vienna, which cracks me up. Of course it's the Protestant Danish envoy who's heard the rumor of evil Catholic Austrians taking Fritz to Vienna.

This also cracked me up! Hey, it fits in with the case we're building that the rumors about Crown Prince future August III being kidnapped by Catholics led directly to the Klements episode in 1718-1719 which led directly to Fritz, Wilhelmine, Charlotte, and Katte all believing this was totally plausible!

Which reminds me, do you have a source for the Charlotte/Anna Amalia/Carl August episode where there were rumors about a plot to kidnap baby Carl August? I'm thinking of putting together an essay about this whole forced conversion to Catholicism thing, since as far as I know, no one has connected all these disparate episodes.

Lövenörn hating on Grumbkow: him and most people, though I think that as opposed to, say, Guy Dickens and Sir Charles Hotham the elder, I don't recall Grumbkow bothering with any face off/intrigues in the Danish direction.

Same, although since Løvenørn *did* get sucked into this, maybe Grumbkow was encouraging FW? Not that FW needed any encouragement once he found out you were siding with Wretched Son...

Re: Løvenørn letters: Sept 2, 1730

[selenak]

Which reminds me, do you have a source for the Charlotte/Anna Amalia/Carl August episode where there were rumors about a plot to kidnap baby Carl August?

That's from the Anna Amalia biography I read, which I had from a library and do not own. However, I can reorder it once I'm back in Munich, which won't be before next year. Or I can check our local Bamberg library, it's a relatively recent one, they might have it.

Re: Løvenørn letters: Sept 2, 1730

[mildred_of_midgard]

Or you could tell me the name of the author, and I could see if I can acquire the book!

Re: Løvenørn letters: Sept 2, 1730

[selenak]

Carolin Phillips, "Anna Amalia von Weimar", I think, but I'm not 100% sure whether that was the one, so I'd rather you let me check it out first. (There are severl AA biographies out there.)

Kidnapping and forced conversion to Catholicism

[mildred_of_midgard]

I've been looking for a new book for German practice, and this one was available as an e-book for only 12 euros, so naturally I bought it. ;)

The episode is indeed in there, but I'm still going to ask you to check the book out for me, because the e-book copy I have is missing the end notes. *grumbles*

The episode does seem legit, though, as the main text cites an entire thick folder in the state archives in Weimar called "Sicherstellung der Durchl. Erb- und Landprinzen", and the author summarizes the contents.

I see nothing about Charlotte, it's her husband Karl I who's said to have believed the rumors completely. And much to my surprise, it's not the evil Catholics of Vienna who are the suspects here, but the evil Catholics of Warsaw: August III! It's 1758 and he wants Saxony back from Fritz. Karl of Brunswick, the baby's grandfather, thinks kidnapping the baby prince in Weimar is just the ticket to August getting more troops to help in in the noble cause of "kick Fritz out of Saxony." Of course, since it's the Seven Years' War, Saxony and Vienna are working hand-in-glove against Fritz, but I was still surprised to see August III, the guy whose childhood and conversion were rife with all these rumors that cast a very long shadow, showing up in the narrative.

So now August III--who was named co-guardian for the baby by FS--has been on both sides of the Catholic kidnapping and forced conversion rumors: as the alleged kidnapee and the alleged kidnapper!

Re: Kidnapping and forced conversion to Catholicism

[selenak]

So now August III--who was named co-guardian for the baby by FS--has been on both sides of the Catholic kidnapping and forced conversion rumors: as the alleged kidnapee and the alleged kidnapper!

LOL. What I'd like to know is how people thought this particular kidnapping scheme would work out - I mean, other than Carl August becoming an obedient Son of Rome, obviously. (BTW: when I wonder whether FW truly thought Fritz would end up as an obedient RC, knowing Fritz and his obstinacy, when believing in the 1718/1719 "plot", I remind myself FW probably thought Fritz would be capable of it if only to spite him.) In August 3 telling Fritz "Hand back Saxony, or your baby grand nephew will go to mass as soon as he can walk?"

Re: Kidnapping and forced conversion to Catholicism

[mildred_of_midgard]

Lol! No, the idea seems to be that as Carl August's guardian, August III can act as regent and keep Weimar from joining Fritz in the Seven Years' War.

As a reminder to cahn (and luzula, if reading), Carl August is the son of Anna Amalia, who is the daughter of Fritz's sister Charlotte and her husband the Duke of Brunswick. Fritz, AW, and Charlotte are all married to these Brunswick siblings. One of the Brunswick brothers died fighting in Fritz's army at Soor (candidate for the worst condolence letter ever). Another will die fighting in Fritz's army in the battle of Hochkirch this very year (1758). Another, Ferdinand, is one of Fritz's greatest generals during the Seven Years' War, and certainly his most independent one.

This is a family that has close ties to Fritz, is what I'm saying.

So the Saxons and Austrians have every reason to believe that if the Brunswick family gets its way, and the regency is handed over to Anna Amalia and her father (Charlotte's husband), Weimar will be on the side of Fritz in this war (and future wars).

To counter that, FS makes August III co-regent over Carl August, and it's quite understandable that kidnapping the baby would not only lead to his conversion to Catholicism, but to greater control by August over Weimar foreign policy and troop commitment. It would also make Weimar a more natural ally for Austria and Saxony in future wars. Even if the Treaty of Westphalia means Carl August can't change the local religion for his subjects, a conversion by a ruling prince can have foreign policy implications (that's actually why many of the German princes, including the Hohenzollerns way back when, converted in the first place).

"Hand back Saxony, or your baby grand nephew will go to mass as soon as he can walk?"

This made me laugh, but I think everyone, even August III, knew that argument would just result in Fritz justifying the occupation of Saxony for the Protestant cause, not in handing over Saxony. Troops. Weimar troops are where it's at.

Re: Kidnapping and forced conversion to Catholicism

[cahn]

Ha, thank you as always for the reminder!

(I will always remember Ferdinand of Brunswick being a better candidate for regent than the Hohenzollern Ferdinand, but I forgot that there were so many of them...)

Re: Kidnapping and forced conversion to Catholicism

[mildred_of_midgard]

I meant to mention the regent thing! I guess it's good that you'll always remember it, so I don't have to. :D

Re: Kidnapping and forced conversion to Catholicism

[luzula]

and luzula, if reading

I have Salon posts tracked and get emails for every comment (though they're autosorted to a certain folder in my email, to be read when I have time). So in a sense I am always reading, and will certainly see if I'm mentioned. But I skip or skim things I'm less interested in.

Thanks for the explanation, it did contextualize the thread for me! : )

Re: Kidnapping and forced conversion to Catholicism

[mildred_of_midgard]

Okay, good to know! Pretty much the same for me: autosorted to a folder, and I will skim things I'm less interested in (non-18th century, music, etc.), but I will at least take a quick look at every post.

Re: Kidnapping and forced conversion to Catholicism

[mildred_of_midgard]

The plot thickens! The evil Catholics of Vienna have just made an appearance. They're now suspected (by the Brunswick minister, I think? I can't keep track of all these minor players) of possibly wanting to kidnap the baby and stash him away in a third place (I assume this means not Vienna) as soon as they can convince others that Fritz wants to take the baby into custody.