Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 46

[cahn]

Background: The kids' school has a topic for "Unit" every trimester that a lot of their work (reading, writing, some math) revolves around. These topics range from time/geographic periods ('Colonial America') to geography ('Asia') to science ('Space') to social science ('Business and Economics'). (I have some issues with this way of doing things, but that's a whole separate post.) Anyway, for Reasons, they have had to come up with a new topic this year, and E's 7/8 class is doing "World Fairs" as their new topic.

Me: I know E's teacher is all about World Fairs and I know she is great and will do a good job. But I feel like if we had a different teacher who wasn't so into World Fairs, they wouldn't do such a good job and another topic would be better.
Me: Like... the Enlightenment!
D: Heh, you could teach that! But you'd have to restrain yourself from making everything about Frederick the Great.
Me: But that's the thing! Everyone does relate to each other in this time period! Voltaire -- and his partner Émilie du Châtelet, who was heavily involved in the discourse of conservation of energy and momentum -- well, I've told you Voltaire had a thing with Fritz -- and then there's Empress Maria Theresa, who went to war with him a few times -- and Catherine the Great --
D, meditatively: You know --
Me: *am innocently not warned even though this is the same tone of voice that is often followed by, say, a bad pun*
D: -- it's impressive how everyone from this 'the Great' family is so famous!
Me: *splutters*
D, thoughtfully: But of course there's probably selection bias, as the ones who aren't famous don't get mentioned. You never see 'Bob the Great' in the history books...
Me: *splutters more*

Comments

Hans Pleschinski: Das Flakon, or, Brühl/Glasow: The Novel

[selenak]

Yes, that's right, the same Hans Pleschinski who translated Madame du Pompadour's letters, the Duc de Croy's diaries and most famously the Fritz/Voltaire correspondence into German and thinks they thoroughly deserve each other has written a novel starring the Countess Brühl as its central character, set in 1757, and revolving around the bonkers Glasow affair (sorta).

This is one the one hand a very entertaining book, paying homage, among other things, to Sachsens Glanz und Preußens Gloria, which the author confesses he's imprinted on when young, though the Brühls are the good guys here and devoted to each other, as opposed to the show. In fact, among the bibliography is the very same Brühl biography by the Hungarian Habsburg loyalist I reviewed this very year, and basically, that's his Brühl image. (Though the main character is the wife, as mentioned. Brühl and his King only have cameo appearances first on Königstein and then in Warschau, though these include some Sachsens Glanz und Preußens Gloria gags/homages.) Other characters include Marwitz (yes, that one! He's one of the main characters, in fact!), a fictional sister to Lessing's titular heroine Minna von Barnhelm (= classic and one of the earliest great German language theatre plays, also the first using the 7 Years War as a backstory for its main characters) who is serving the Countess, Luise Gottsched (the Émilie fan and one of German's first female literati) and her husband, the other best known German writer of the era, Gellert, and a guy whom I don't know whether he's invented or historical but whom Pleschinski ships with Marwitz. Lehndorff gets quoted from both as the motto of the book (from his early 1756 visit to Saxony after his heartbreak of not being permitted to leave with his Englishman - it's basically great praise for what a fine lady Countess Brühl is and how lovely Dresden) and at the end (his summary of the Glasow affair). Fritz shows only up in cameos, Heinrich not at all, but both are often discussed.

Basically, the plot, such as it is: After Fritz invades Saxony, the Countess is determined to save her country. Originally she vaguely wonders about negotiations but once Fritz has started to strip everything bare, destroying Brühl property and clipping coins of Saxony's currency, she realises hardcore measures are asked for. After a chance encounter with Marwitz in Dresden, who is nice and charming and a fan of Saxon splendour but not Prussian warring and immediately expositions to her about how Fritz and Heinrich keep tearing him apart between them and how he's heartily sick of being in and out of favour with both of them and basically the bone they're contantly snapping for, she gets him to escort her and her maid (the fictional Baroness von Barnhelm) to Leipzig, where she hopes to persuade either Gottsched or Gellert or both - who are known to be in for a personal audience with Fritz - to help her assassinate him. She doesn't tell Marwitz the last part, of course, she tells him about a petition, but honestly, Marwitz is awfully gullible if he buys that. En route, they also encounter the guy whom I'm not sure whether he's fictional or not and whom Marwitz flirts with and much prefers to his two royal suitors and their fraternal strife. (He doesn't hate them, but being in a triangle with Fritz and Heinrich is just so stressful! Especially since in this reality, it's ongoing, because Pleschinski has pushed its start from the post Silesia2 phase to the previous year. Heinrich's actual current fave Kalkreuth does not exist. Glasow, when he finally shows up, is the portly guy from "Sachsens Glanz...", not the hot red Porsche of hussars. So Marwitz has to fulfill both Fritz' and Heinrich's sexual and emotional needs, and he's just TIRED of it.

Anyway, when the gang finally has arrived in Leipzig (no explanation as to why Marwitz during a war can absent himself from his job to hang out with the Countess), there are some fun scenes with Luise Gottsched, Gottsched and Gellert, during which there is much Fritz discussion, but also discussion as to which future for Germany we want, with ominous forshadowing about what a Prussianized Germany would be like, as opposed to a modernized HRE because yay, Federalism. In fairness, Pleschinski also has some characters point out to the Countess that Fritz himself a) doesn't want all the German states to become Prussia like, b) doesn't want to be the Emperor, and c) would be a super fun witty and smart intellectual if only he wasn't King; Fritz without power would be great. There's the requisite flashback to the Katte saga.

Anyway, both Gottsched and Gellert turn the Countess down, much as they abhorr Fritz' treatment of Saxony, but we've met Glasow who is massively in debts, and it's very clear the Countess is approach him next. And then... the novel is over. We get an epilogue with the Lehndorff quote about how the Glasow affair went down and a short "where are they now?" summary of the historical characters' fates afterwards. And then an afterword where Pleschinski talks about his sources which include Poniatowski's memoirs, Lehndorff's diaries, the Hungarian Habsburg fan's Brühl biography, a newer biography of the Countess Brühl and some Fritz bios, but not, it seems, any of the other Glasow related original material we've found. The review which alerted me to the existence of this book seesm to think Pleschinski thinks that if the Countess had succeeded and Fritz had died in the spring of 1757, it would have been far better for Germany and the world (essentially the Hungarian's theory from his preface, renember?), but I'm not so sure, because there is a passage in the novel where someone points out to the Countess that even if Fritz dies, it's entirely possible that AW or Heinrich continue his politics and history will unfold accordingly.

I found the abrupt ending and Pleschinski choosing not to describe the actual assassination attempt (which in his version happens) unsatisfying for the book as a novel, and while it's entirely possible Marwitz inwardly had reached a "a plague on both your houses" point with Fritz and Heinrich, I very much doubt he'd have talked about his love triangle with Saxony's First Lady (after the Queen) upon a chance encounter. Also, there is some deliberate (on the part of the author) historical alteration - as he says in the afterward, he's moved up the sacking of Hubertusburg, which historically took place much later in the war, to 1757. (Finding Hubertusburg is what makes the Countess decide on poison.) But there are also some clearly not deliberate mistakes - good old Katte gets shot, not beheaded, and Fritz is equally for a time threatened by a excution via shooting. Also, the phrasing makes it sound as if they were running away together, as in physically together. And Fritz at one point makes a Romeo and Julia comparison - which our Fritz, who I very much doubt has read Shakespeare (I'm not even sure whether there was a French translation - Voltaire did read Shakespeare, but in the original), and definitely didn't know the Renaissance Italian collection from which Shakespeare had the story, just wouldn't have made. Not to mention Marwitz earlier references D'Artagnan is the examply of a dashing hero. While D'Artagnan actually did exist in history, I very much doubt a Prussian officer in 1757 would have known who he was, unless he was really super into obscure Louis XIV history. It was Dumas' Three Musketeers which made D'Artagnan a household name, and that novel wasn't published for another century.

Anyway, it's an entertaining book with some witty scenes, though I was a bit disappointed that Heinrich doesn't get even a cameo and is only ever talked about in terms of how he and Fritz are stressing Marwitz out with their rivalry. (I mean, it's clear Pleschinski has read Ziebura's biography, because he lets Marwitz mention the Fritz letters to Heinrich about him in detail, and those letters aren't quoted from anywhere else.) Also, I'm all for Brühl rehabilitation and Fritz criticism, but he didn't invade Saxony in 1756 just because he felt the itch to go to war again and had become bored by peace, which is how the characters in the novel see it - he was caught off guard by the Diplomatic Revolution and responded to that. It doesn't take away from Fritz' ruthlessness to state he would have been fine with no war in 1756, he wanted to isolate MT diplomatically and hadn't counted on her countermove.

But of course a novel in 2023 which deals with with an absolute ruler invading his neigbouring state and declaring it's just to protect himself against NATO everyone else's intentions has certain contemporary echoes to consider. I mean, the Fritz characterisation isn't that of a Putin avatar, in terms of personality, and it's made very clear he doesn't go for the developing dumb nationalism some of his fans go for, but still, I do think the current situation is probably one reason why the novel positions Fritz unquestioningly in the wrong and as the only one who wanted that war. (BTW, it helps that the novel is from the Saxon pov, of course. There is MT criticism - at one point the Countess and her entourage encounter refugee Jews who have been expelled from Prague by MT, which I don't think happened during the 7 Years War, but the Austrian anti Jewish actions did happen earlier - but the Saxons are presented as cultured and fun loving and prefering peace to war and the Germany that wasn't because as the reader knows Prussia will take over instead.

Glasow, as mentioned, is only in the one scene. His age isn't mentioned, nor his good looks, just that he put on weight through the years, is in debts and completly stressed out (him, too) by having to serve Fritz. (As a valet. No mention of anything more.) Fredersdorf is not mentioned at all. Katte and Voltaire are the sole Fritzian objects of affection namechecked. (Other than Marwitz, and Marwitz is basically a pretty distraction and something to argue with Heinrich over, not a boyfriend.)

Re: Hans Pleschinski: Das Flakon, or, Brühl/Glasow: The Novel

[cahn]

and most famously the Fritz/Voltaire correspondence into German and thinks they thoroughly deserve each other

<3 :D

Lehndorff!! :DD <3

and immediately expositions to her about how Fritz and Heinrich keep tearing him apart between them and how he's heartily sick of being in and out of favour with both of them and basically the bone they're contantly snapping for

ahahaha! Aw, Marwitz, we love you.

Heinrich's actual current fave Kalkreuth does not exist. Glasow, when he finally shows up, is the portly guy from "Sachsens Glanz...", not the hot red Porsche of hussars. So Marwitz has to fulfill both Fritz' and Heinrich's sexual and emotional needs, and he's just TIRED of it.

I am DYING here.

(no explanation as to why Marwitz during a war can absent himself from his job to hang out with the Countess)

Hee!

but we've met Glasow who is massively in debts, and it's very clear the Countess is approach him next. And then... the novel is over. We get an epilogue with the Lehndorff quote about how the Glasow affair went down and a short "where are they now?" summary of the historical characters' fates afterwards.

Oh nooooo! but the putative assassination is the most interesting part

(btw, I am going to be swamped with RL stuff for the next couple of weeks so I'm not sure how much I'll be able to salon, if any, during that time -- but will be back after that!)

Re: Hans Pleschinski: Das Flakon, or, Brühl/Glasow: The Novel

[selenak]

Heinrich's actual current fave Kalkreuth does not exist. Glasow, when he finally shows up, is the portly guy from "Sachsens Glanz...", not the hot red Porsche of hussars. So Marwitz has to fulfill both Fritz' and Heinrich's sexual and emotional needs, and he's just TIRED of it.

I am DYING here.

I mean, I can't imagine a more stressful position than having to fulfill both Fritz' and Heinrich's sexual and emotional needs at the same time, honestly. Which is probably why it never happened - I mean, real Marwitz may very well have been Heinrich's first love, i.e. before Heinrich got into the poly habit, but he definitely was never Fritz' sole pretty distraction. (Also, in the relevant era, post Silesia 2, Fredersdorf was of course alive and (relatively) well.) Meanwhile, even boastful Kalckreuth who is convinced he could have had Fritz (and that Heinrich should have been more grateful) doesn't imply he could have managed Fritz and Heinrich at the same time, let alone without any other boytoys. And Fritz loathed Kaphengst, who might have had the self confidence and lack of common sense to try such a mighty feat.

Algarotti: *coughs discreetly*

Selena: Your one night stand with Heinrich is just my personal headcanon, sadly, so I can't quote you as an example. But given your Lord Hervey and Lady Mary AND young Andrew Mitchell at the same time precedent, yes, you, too, would have been insane enough to try. Maybe that's yet another reason why you got the hell out of Prussia and back to Italy?

Re: Hans Pleschinski: Das Flakon, or, Brühl/Glasow: The Novel

[mildred_of_midgard]

Ahahaha, I started laughing out loud at "Kaphengst, who might have had the self confidence and lack of common sense to try such a mighty feat," and was in tears by "But given your Lord Hervey and Lady Mary AND young Andrew Mitchell at the same time precedent, yes, you, too, would have been insane enough to try."

Question: In the AU where Heinrich marries Anhalt!Sophie, and they scheme against each other while remaining best friends (a fic I would stil like to try my hand at, now that I've read some Catherine bios, but not this year), does Kaphengst have the self-confidence and lack of common sense to try satisfying both of them?

Re: Hans Pleschinski: Das Flakon, or, Brühl/Glasow: The Novel

[selenak]

I bet he does! I really have no idea how Heinrich and Sophie (since she'd never become Catherine in such an AU) would take that, though. I mean, Heinrich evidently was okay with his boyfriends having wives and other lovers, most of them did, and Kaphengst really had a lot. I know Catherine was okay with Potemkin having other lovers (andn vice versa he with her having other lovers). But in both cases, they were the ones with the superior social power in all these situations. If Heinrich and Sophie would have been married with each other and living in a state where Fritz had the supreme power over them both, that would have been a different scenario. Then again: they would start out as friends which neither of them did with their rl spouse, so their behaviour vis a vis Peter and Mina isn't a good point of comparison, either.

So you agree with me then that Algarotti would have had the nerve (but not the stamina, clearly, and would have hightailed it out of there for this reason as much as any other) based on presdent :) ?

Re: Hans Pleschinski: Das Flakon, or, Brühl/Glasow: The Novel

[mildred_of_midgard]

I really have no idea how Heinrich and Sophie (since she'd never become Catherine in such an AU) would take that, though.

Yeah, same. Maybe someday I'll explore it in fiction. ;)

So you agree with me then that Algarotti would have had the nerve (but not the stamina, clearly, and would have hightailed it out of there for this reason as much as any other) based on presdent :) ?

Fritz did say Algarotti tried to please everyone! I think your headcanon is self-evident: if the offer had been open, he would have. But not the stamina, agreed.

Re: Hans Pleschinski: Das Flakon, or, Brühl/Glasow: The Novel

[mildred_of_midgard]

Also, let's not forget the AU we discussed where Heinrich is regent and his marriage to Sophie turns into GoT! (But as cahn says, they remain friends while scheming.)

Re: Hans Pleschinski: Das Flakon, or, Brühl/Glasow: The Novel

[selenak]

Catherine/Sophie: Let me put it this way: I would have absolutely no sentimental attachment to no longer future FW2. My opinion of him compared to his uncles wasn't high in the prime timeline anyway. I would certainly believe it was in Prussia's best interest to have another heir instead of giving the country the benefit of my my alt!husband's rule for only a few years. Now, chances are Heinrich and I would not have reproduced together, but that doesn't mean I would have been childless. I'm sure we could have worked something out. If he would have insisted on Hohenzollern genes, well, there were the Schwedt cousins. And once we had a son of our own....

(The big problem for her is of course the legal situation where as opposed to Russia, Sophie would not have been able to become Queen Regnant of Prussia, no matter what. Which means she needs a kid to rule for.)

Game of Hohenzollern Thrones, Anhalt!Sophie Style

[mildred_of_midgard]

If he would have insisted on Hohenzollern genes, well, there were the Schwedt cousins.

Ferdinand who? :P

(The big problem for her is of course the legal situation where as opposed to Russia, Sophie would not have been able to become Queen Regnant of Prussia, no matter what. Which means she needs a kid to rule for.)

Agreed. So, chronologically, how does this work? Does Heinrich agree to her having a kid when AW still has two sons (FW2 and Henricus Minor) alive and well? Or does she only have leverage once *both* AW's heirs are dead? Because if Henricus Minor hasn't been born yet, it's 1744-1747, and AW is alive and well, so Heinrich isn't regent. If HM is already dead, it's 1767, and Catherine's 38. Not *too* late to have a child, but pushing it. And if both no longer future FW2 and Henricus Minor experience mysterious deaths as children...well, once is a misfortune, twice looks like carelessness. :P

Or does Catherine bribe someone to come out and say the late and lamented AW was secretly married before his marriage to Luise, and therefore the children are illegitimate? Ooh, I like it, we could have Richard III echoes! And AW was such a charismatic womanizer that people would believe it. His personality and Edward IV's, while not identical, are not without relevant echoes.

Thoughts?

(Sorry, still more interested in Hohenzollern AU shenanigans than 17th century Stuarts (or 17th century anything), but definitely reading those posts, keep them coming! And yesterday I transitioned from the note-taking and -organizing parts of 1768-1772 to the first of the write-ups. So hopefully soon-ish salon gets to learn more about prime timeline Catherine's ruthlessness.)

Re: Game of Hohenzollern Thrones, Anhalt!Sophie Style

[selenak]

Ferdinand who? :P

For the life of me I can't see Sophie seducing Ferdinand. And he'd have been scared of her.

Does Heinrich agree to her having a kid when AW still has two sons (FW2 and Henricus Minor) alive and well?

Hmmm, good question. In rl, in addition to his feelings (or lack of same) re: Mina and Mina being the symbol of submission to Fritz, he said producing princes who would never have a shot at doing something useful - which sons of third sons would in all likelihood qualify for - struck him as irresponsible, or something similar, I don't remember the quote exactly. But he likes Sophie, and if he has married her not on Fritz' orders but, say, to help her out (as in my story he suggested at one point) before the submission gesture was required, there's a slightly different emotional background there, so if she explicitly wants children, well, Heinrich is an 18th century guy. He would assume it's the normal thing for a woman to want, without which a woman is unfulfilled, and he might not have wanted to do this to his friend Sophie, as opposed to his disliked symbol-of-Fritz-submission Mina. Also, if they have children within the early 1750s, there's no reason for him to believe it will have a dynastic point - AW and AW's kids are alive and well. So it wouldn't even have to be a Hohenzollern lover.

I also like your other idea! True, AW and Edward IV have commonalities, though the big differences include Edward being tough and pragmatic enough to kill brother George when Clarence pushes it one time too many, and of course he's better at this whole military thing. However, I enirely agree a secret marriage for lust that invalidates a subsequent marriage would be believable of AW just as it was of Edward. Because AW and Luise were so young when they married, it would have been in a narrow time window, within FW's life time, which would make the secret part in a way more believable (even a favourite son would have been punished for such a stunt!), or in the first year of Fritz' reign (would also work, in that AW wasn't taken along to Silesia at first, which would explain why it could be kept secret from Fritz all these years). I mean, it has to sound plausible, after all.

Whom would Catherine bribe? The story in Edward IV's case could have been the truth, and might have been a reason for Clarence's death. After all, the bishop who later claimed to have married Edward IV with Lady Eleanor Butler, Stillington, was arrested shortly after Clarence's execution and kept locked up for a few months, and he might have told brother George. And it's telling that the Tudor era account exchange the highborn lady Eleanor Butler - a plausible bride for young Edward - to one of his later mistresses, whom no one seriously could think he would have married, and surppressed the Titulus Regius, the Parliament act declaring the Woodville kids bastards, which named Eleanor Butler. If three copies of the Titulus Regius had not survived despite this, we still wouldn't know any better. The other argument for believing Edward IV might have done hat is that Richard III did neither reward or kill Stillington after Stillington had come forward with his claim. Stillington didn't get any new offices or lands, nor was he later removed so he couldn't change his story again. (And then there was the fact Edward did marry Elizabeth Woodville in secret and didn't tell anyone until Warwick had arranged a marriage to a French princess for him. So, definitely in character.)

All of which is an extremely long tangent to say Catherine/Sophie would need both a plausible (and dead) bride for young AW, and a clergyman willing to swear he'd married her to AW despite the prospect of FW's or Fritz' ire. (Stillington was a bishop of good reputation, who had started out his career with the Butler family, so no obscure country priest, which also enhanced his credibility.) Hmm..... how about this: in her story, young AW fell in love with a sexy Saxon lady, maybe yet another of August the Strong's illegitimate daughters, which would make her of royal blood and a plausible bride, if tainted by illegtimacy. And the clergyman who supposedly married them to each other as well as two witnesses to the ceremony are also Saxon. Why would they swear to this? In revenge for the Scouring of Saxony, of course! Yes, no longer future FW2 is AW's kid, not that of Fritz, but he is Fritz' designed successor, and thus posthumously foiling him might feel satisfying. Maybe the Saxon folk even hope for a Prussian War of Succession, or at least trouble for their arch enemy. Maybe they agree because Heinrich was as decent as an occupier under Fritz' overall direction could be to the Saxons and they think they are doing him a favour this way?

Or.... drumroll... Sophie/Catherine's star witness besides the actual clergyman is Poniatowski! Whom she could have met and romanced when he was in Berlin in the late 1740s in this timeline.

Re: Game of Hohenzollern Thrones, Anhalt!Sophie Style

[mildred_of_midgard]

For the life of me I can't see Sophie seducing Ferdinand. And he'd have been scared of her.

True to all this, but I was thinking along these lines:

Heinrich: Bro! I need an heir, it's got to be a Hohenzollern, and you know I'm not doing it. And I trust you.

Ferdinand: I will do anything for you.

But then I'm being influenced by one of my absolute favorite scenes in a book, in which an impotent ruler needs an heir, his wife wants a kid, and his loyal childless younger brother's up for helping out.

In revenge for the Scouring of Saxony, of course! Yes, no longer future FW2 is AW's kid, not that of Fritz, but he is Fritz' designed successor, and thus posthumously foiling him might feel satisfying. Maybe the Saxon folk even hope for a Prussian War of Succession, or at least trouble for their arch enemy. Maybe they agree because Heinrich was as decent as an occupier under Fritz' overall direction could be to the Saxons and they think they are doing him a favour this way?

I like it!

Or.... drumroll... Sophie/Catherine's star witness besides the actual clergyman is Poniatowski! Whom she could have met and romanced when he was in Berlin in the late 1740s in this timeline.

Ah, yes, excellent. A plot emerges!

Hanbury-Williams: Hooking these two up wherever he goes, in whatever timeline. :D

Re: Game of Hohenzollern Thrones, Anhalt!Sophie Style

[selenak]

Heinrich: Bro! I need an heir, it's got to be a Hohenzollern, and you know I'm not doing it. And I trust you.

Ferdinand: I will do anything for you.

I could see this trust and readiness on both their parts, and also, given Ferdinand in real life flirted with Mina originally (and had to be told by an evidently projecting AW "don't let it get serious, no matter how hot she is!"), it's not like he was per se incapable of romancing sisters-in-law. But again... it's Sophie/Catherine. I can't get the image of Ferdinand hiding behind Heinrich when they all meet as kids out of my head (even though it's just my own headcanon, Catherine in her memoirs just says she was introduced to the girls plus Heinrich and Ferdinand, says nothing about the last one and goes on to say that this is from where she and Heinrich date their friendship). I still think he'd have been afraid of her and thus incapable of getting it on with her. Mind you: maybe I'm projecting later Ferdinand too much on earlyl Ferdinand. Post AW's death Ferdinand was invested in being too sick to fight (and scapegoated by Fritz) and then turned into a full time hypochondriac, but pre AW's death Ferdinand was an enterprising prince partying it up as a member of the Divine Trio in the late 40s and early 50s, wo presumably at this time he could have managed. (As for Sophie, while I don't think she'd have been attracted to him on her own behalf she would have done it if there was no other way to produce an Hohenzollern offspring okay with Heinrich.

Hanbury-Williams: Hooking these two up wherever he goes, in whatever timeline. :D

Clearly, since in this timeline he'd have hung out with SD, EC and the sibs while pointedly not getting a Fritz audience as well, and Sophie would have liked him while also thinking it was useful for the future to have an English diplomat in her pockets.

I'm trying to figure out how all the post Fritz' death players would have reacted once Sophie announces AW was married to the Saxon lady and no longer future FW2 plus siblings are therefore bastards. Within the family, Amalie of course sides with Luise. (EC does too, but no one pays attention to poor EC anyway.) Ulrike in Sweden plus son Gustav: Hm, on the one hand, AW was Ulrike's favourite brother, otoh, she seems to have gotten along well with Heinrich when he visited in real life (enough so to make a return visit to Rheinsberg later), she like her mother was Braunschweig sisters hostile in the early 1740s, and she doesn't know AW's kids in person, so - she might be all for Heinrich as King and his kids as the successors instead of no longer future FW2, if, that is, she thinks that's what Heinrich wants. If she suspects Sophie is after becoming Regent herself, that's another matter. Meanwhile, Gustav can be trusted to go in the other direction to whatever his mother wants.

The Prussian army: anyone who served in the 7 Years War would probably be pro Heinrich, not sure about the younger ones.

The politicians: FW2's real life ministers hated Heinrich's gut, so their counterpart in this timeline would do anything to prevent either Heinrich or Sophie or both from getting anywhere near power.

Joseph and MT (if she's still alive by the time it comes to ahead, which I assume she would be if Fritz dies in the 7 Years War): MT inwardly is "a plague on both their houses" but outwardly supports the line of succession as previously established (though she lets Sophie know Sophie could always suggest a Pragmatic Sanction. (Since MT inherited over her cousins despite her cousins being the daughters of her father's older brother.) Joseph has mixed feelings (strife within the Hohenzollern clan = good for the Habsburgs; but also, younger brothers getting ursurping ideas = bad) but then thinks that no longer future FW2 sounds like one of his annoying brothers-in-law while Sophie wins him around in a personal encounter (not to Team Heinrich, to Team Sophie).

Louis XV and Louis XVI (depending on when this all goes down): are also cool with inner Hohenzollern strife. Louis XV has fond memories of centuries long French policy to try and support one German ruler against the other, though the other used to be always a Habsburg.

The Hannover Cousins: Young G3 is strictly against anyone making any changes to the rule of succession, thinks this whole secret marriage story sounds fishy (his oldest son is not yet old enough to look guilty when he says this), and since everyone is a good Protestant, doesn't think the deposed Stuarts precedent applies. Sir Charles would lobby him except on Sophie's behalf except Sir Charles has had syphilis in this timeline, too, and thus has gone mad and died as in the prime timeline.

Re: Game of Hohenzollern Thrones, Anhalt!Sophie Style

[cahn]

Heeeee I love this!

What I also want to know is, how is Heinrich reacting here! I could imagine him having strong feelings about this AW marriage, which presumably he knows or at least suspects is Sophie's invention. But maybe he also feels like he would be a good king??

Re: Game of Hohenzollern Thrones, Anhalt!Sophie Style

[cahn]

I am loving this secret marriage idea :D I'm cracking up at the star witness being Poniatowski, though :D (Does he go through with it?? Or is it like Poland where he suddenly grows a spine?)

Re: Game of Hohenzollern Thrones, Anhalt!Sophie Style

[mildred_of_midgard]

Ooh, I think you're on to an important plot twist and characterization moment! (This is why I like co-authoring/beta-ing with cahn, y'all. :D) Because as we'll see in the 1768-1772 foreign policy write-up--coming soon to a salon near you--at one point early on, Poniatowski is telling a foreign visitor, "I know I can trust my Sophie not to do authorize unethical use of force!" and everyone around him is like "Uhhhh..."

So yeah, that could be a character arc of painful realization for him.

Re: Hans Pleschinski: Das Flakon, or, Brühl/Glasow: The Novel

[cahn]

I mean, I can't imagine a more stressful position than having to fulfill both Fritz' and Heinrich's sexual and emotional needs at the same time, honestly.

Right?? It's funny because it's true! Of course he would be exhausted! :D