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cahnBackground: The kids' school has a topic for "Unit" every trimester that a lot of their work (reading, writing, some math) revolves around. These topics range from time/geographic periods ('Colonial America') to geography ('Asia') to science ('Space') to social science ('Business and Economics'). (I have some issues with this way of doing things, but that's a whole separate post.) Anyway, for Reasons, they have had to come up with a new topic this year, and E's 7/8 class is doing "World Fairs" as their new topic.
Me: I know E's teacher is all about World Fairs and I know she is great and will do a good job. But I feel like if we had a different teacher who wasn't so into World Fairs, they wouldn't do such a good job and another topic would be better.
Me: Like... the Enlightenment!
D: Heh, you could teach that! But you'd have to restrain yourself from making everything about Frederick the Great.
Me: But that's the thing! Everyone does relate to each other in this time period! Voltaire -- and his partner Émilie du Châtelet, who was heavily involved in the discourse of conservation of energy and momentum -- well, I've told you Voltaire had a thing with Fritz -- and then there's Empress Maria Theresa, who went to war with him a few times -- and Catherine the Great --
D, meditatively: You know --
Me: *am innocently not warned even though this is the same tone of voice that is often followed by, say, a bad pun*
D: -- it's impressive how everyone from this 'the Great' family is so famous!
Me: *splutters*
D, thoughtfully: But of course there's probably selection bias, as the ones who aren't famous don't get mentioned. You never see 'Bob the Great' in the history books...
Me: *splutters more*
Me: I know E's teacher is all about World Fairs and I know she is great and will do a good job. But I feel like if we had a different teacher who wasn't so into World Fairs, they wouldn't do such a good job and another topic would be better.
Me: Like... the Enlightenment!
D: Heh, you could teach that! But you'd have to restrain yourself from making everything about Frederick the Great.
Me: But that's the thing! Everyone does relate to each other in this time period! Voltaire -- and his partner Émilie du Châtelet, who was heavily involved in the discourse of conservation of energy and momentum -- well, I've told you Voltaire had a thing with Fritz -- and then there's Empress Maria Theresa, who went to war with him a few times -- and Catherine the Great --
D, meditatively: You know --
Me: *am innocently not warned even though this is the same tone of voice that is often followed by, say, a bad pun*
D: -- it's impressive how everyone from this 'the Great' family is so famous!
Me: *splutters*
D, thoughtfully: But of course there's probably selection bias, as the ones who aren't famous don't get mentioned. You never see 'Bob the Great' in the history books...
Me: *splutters more*
Re: Hans Pleschinski: Das Flakon, or, Brühl/Glasow: The Novel
Date: 2023-11-04 06:44 pm (UTC)So you agree with me then that Algarotti would have had the nerve (but not the stamina, clearly, and would have hightailed it out of there for this reason as much as any other) based on presdent :) ?
Re: Hans Pleschinski: Das Flakon, or, Brühl/Glasow: The Novel
Date: 2023-11-04 07:01 pm (UTC)Yeah, same. Maybe someday I'll explore it in fiction. ;)
So you agree with me then that Algarotti would have had the nerve (but not the stamina, clearly, and would have hightailed it out of there for this reason as much as any other) based on presdent :) ?
Fritz did say Algarotti tried to please everyone! I think your headcanon is self-evident: if the offer had been open, he would have. But not the stamina, agreed.
Re: Hans Pleschinski: Das Flakon, or, Brühl/Glasow: The Novel
Date: 2023-11-04 07:46 pm (UTC)Re: Hans Pleschinski: Das Flakon, or, Brühl/Glasow: The Novel
Date: 2023-11-05 04:23 pm (UTC)mymy alt!husband's rule for only a few years. Now, chances are Heinrich and I would not have reproduced together, but that doesn't mean I would have been childless. I'm sure we could have worked something out. If he would have insisted on Hohenzollern genes, well, there were the Schwedt cousins. And once we had a son of our own....(The big problem for her is of course the legal situation where as opposed to Russia, Sophie would not have been able to become Queen Regnant of Prussia, no matter what. Which means she needs a kid to rule for.)
Game of Hohenzollern Thrones, Anhalt!Sophie Style
Date: 2023-11-05 06:20 pm (UTC)Ferdinand who? :P
(The big problem for her is of course the legal situation where as opposed to Russia, Sophie would not have been able to become Queen Regnant of Prussia, no matter what. Which means she needs a kid to rule for.)
Agreed. So, chronologically, how does this work? Does Heinrich agree to her having a kid when AW still has two sons (FW2 and Henricus Minor) alive and well? Or does she only have leverage once *both* AW's heirs are dead? Because if Henricus Minor hasn't been born yet, it's 1744-1747, and AW is alive and well, so Heinrich isn't regent. If HM is already dead, it's 1767, and Catherine's 38. Not *too* late to have a child, but pushing it. And if both no longer future FW2 and Henricus Minor experience mysterious deaths as children...well, once is a misfortune, twice looks like carelessness. :P
Or does Catherine bribe someone to come out and say the late and lamented AW was secretly married before his marriage to Luise, and therefore the children are illegitimate? Ooh, I like it, we could have Richard III echoes! And AW was such a charismatic womanizer that people would believe it. His personality and Edward IV's, while not identical, are not without relevant echoes.
Thoughts?
(Sorry, still more interested in Hohenzollern AU shenanigans than 17th century Stuarts (or 17th century anything), but definitely reading those posts, keep them coming! And yesterday I transitioned from the note-taking and -organizing parts of 1768-1772 to the first of the write-ups. So hopefully soon-ish salon gets to learn more about prime timeline Catherine's ruthlessness.)
Re: Game of Hohenzollern Thrones, Anhalt!Sophie Style
Date: 2023-11-07 10:04 am (UTC)For the life of me I can't see Sophie seducing Ferdinand. And he'd have been scared of her.
Does Heinrich agree to her having a kid when AW still has two sons (FW2 and Henricus Minor) alive and well?
Hmmm, good question. In rl, in addition to his feelings (or lack of same) re: Mina and Mina being the symbol of submission to Fritz, he said producing princes who would never have a shot at doing something useful - which sons of third sons would in all likelihood qualify for - struck him as irresponsible, or something similar, I don't remember the quote exactly. But he likes Sophie, and if he has married her not on Fritz' orders but, say, to help her out (as in my story he suggested at one point) before the submission gesture was required, there's a slightly different emotional background there, so if she explicitly wants children, well, Heinrich is an 18th century guy. He would assume it's the normal thing for a woman to want, without which a woman is unfulfilled, and he might not have wanted to do this to his friend Sophie, as opposed to his disliked symbol-of-Fritz-submission Mina. Also, if they have children within the early 1750s, there's no reason for him to believe it will have a dynastic point - AW and AW's kids are alive and well. So it wouldn't even have to be a Hohenzollern lover.
I also like your other idea! True, AW and Edward IV have commonalities, though the big differences include Edward being tough and pragmatic enough to kill brother George when Clarence pushes it one time too many, and of course he's better at this whole military thing. However, I enirely agree a secret marriage for
lustthat invalidates a subsequent marriage would be believable of AW just as it was of Edward. Because AW and Luise were so young when they married, it would have been in a narrow time window, within FW's life time, which would make the secret part in a way more believable (even a favourite son would have been punished for such a stunt!), or in the first year of Fritz' reign (would also work, in that AW wasn't taken along to Silesia at first, which would explain why it could be kept secret from Fritz all these years). I mean, it has to sound plausible, after all.Whom would Catherine bribe? The story in Edward IV's case could have been the truth, and might have been a reason for Clarence's death. After all, the bishop who later claimed to have married Edward IV with Lady Eleanor Butler, Stillington, was arrested shortly after Clarence's execution and kept locked up for a few months, and he might have told brother George. And it's telling that the Tudor era account exchange the highborn lady Eleanor Butler - a plausible bride for young Edward - to one of his later mistresses, whom no one seriously could think he would have married, and surppressed the Titulus Regius, the Parliament act declaring the Woodville kids bastards, which named Eleanor Butler. If three copies of the Titulus Regius had not survived despite this, we still wouldn't know any better. The other argument for believing Edward IV might have done hat is that Richard III did neither reward or kill Stillington after Stillington had come forward with his claim. Stillington didn't get any new offices or lands, nor was he later removed so he couldn't change his story again. (And then there was the fact Edward did marry Elizabeth Woodville in secret and didn't tell anyone until Warwick had arranged a marriage to a French princess for him. So, definitely in character.)
All of which is an extremely long tangent to say Catherine/Sophie would need both a plausible (and dead) bride for young AW, and a clergyman willing to swear he'd married her to AW despite the prospect of FW's or Fritz' ire. (Stillington was a bishop of good reputation, who had started out his career with the Butler family, so no obscure country priest, which also enhanced his credibility.) Hmm..... how about this: in her story, young AW fell in love with a sexy Saxon lady, maybe yet another of August the Strong's illegitimate daughters, which would make her of royal blood and a plausible bride, if tainted by illegtimacy. And the clergyman who supposedly married them to each other as well as two witnesses to the ceremony are also Saxon. Why would they swear to this? In revenge for the Scouring of Saxony, of course! Yes, no longer future FW2 is AW's kid, not that of Fritz, but he is Fritz' designed successor, and thus posthumously foiling him might feel satisfying. Maybe the Saxon folk even hope for a Prussian War of Succession, or at least trouble for their arch enemy. Maybe they agree because Heinrich was as decent as an occupier under Fritz' overall direction could be to the Saxons and they think they are doing him a favour this way?
Or.... drumroll... Sophie/Catherine's star witness besides the actual clergyman is Poniatowski! Whom she could have met and romanced when he was in Berlin in the late 1740s in this timeline.
Re: Game of Hohenzollern Thrones, Anhalt!Sophie Style
Date: 2023-11-09 01:32 am (UTC)True to all this, but I was thinking along these lines:
Heinrich: Bro! I need an heir, it's got to be a Hohenzollern, and you know I'm not doing it. And I trust you.
Ferdinand: I will do anything for you.
But then I'm being influenced by one of my absolute favorite scenes in a book, in which an impotent ruler needs an heir, his wife wants a kid, and his loyal childless younger brother's up for helping out.
In revenge for the Scouring of Saxony, of course! Yes, no longer future FW2 is AW's kid, not that of Fritz, but he is Fritz' designed successor, and thus posthumously foiling him might feel satisfying. Maybe the Saxon folk even hope for a Prussian War of Succession, or at least trouble for their arch enemy. Maybe they agree because Heinrich was as decent as an occupier under Fritz' overall direction could be to the Saxons and they think they are doing him a favour this way?
I like it!
Or.... drumroll... Sophie/Catherine's star witness besides the actual clergyman is Poniatowski! Whom she could have met and romanced when he was in Berlin in the late 1740s in this timeline.
Ah, yes, excellent. A plot emerges!
Hanbury-Williams: Hooking these two up wherever he goes, in whatever timeline. :D
Re: Game of Hohenzollern Thrones, Anhalt!Sophie Style
Date: 2023-11-11 12:57 pm (UTC)Ferdinand: I will do anything for you.
I could see this trust and readiness on both their parts, and also, given Ferdinand in real life flirted with Mina originally (and had to be told by an evidently projecting AW "don't let it get serious, no matter how hot she is!"), it's not like he was per se incapable of romancing sisters-in-law. But again... it's Sophie/Catherine. I can't get the image of Ferdinand hiding behind Heinrich when they all meet as kids out of my head (even though it's just my own headcanon, Catherine in her memoirs just says she was introduced to the girls plus Heinrich and Ferdinand, says nothing about the last one and goes on to say that this is from where she and Heinrich date their friendship). I still think he'd have been afraid of her and thus incapable of getting it on with her. Mind you: maybe I'm projecting later Ferdinand too much on earlyl Ferdinand. Post AW's death Ferdinand was invested in being too sick to fight (and scapegoated by Fritz) and then turned into a full time hypochondriac, but pre AW's death Ferdinand was an enterprising prince partying it up as a member of the Divine Trio in the late 40s and early 50s, wo presumably at this time he could have managed. (As for Sophie, while I don't think she'd have been attracted to him on her own behalf she would have done it if there was no other way to produce an Hohenzollern offspring okay with Heinrich.
Hanbury-Williams: Hooking these two up wherever he goes, in whatever timeline. :D
Clearly, since in this timeline he'd have hung out with SD, EC and the sibs while pointedly not getting a Fritz audience as well, and Sophie would have liked him while also thinking it was useful for the future to have an English diplomat in her pockets.
I'm trying to figure out how all the post Fritz' death players would have reacted once Sophie announces AW was married to the Saxon lady and no longer future FW2 plus siblings are therefore bastards. Within the family, Amalie of course sides with Luise. (EC does too, but no one pays attention to poor EC anyway.) Ulrike in Sweden plus son Gustav: Hm, on the one hand, AW was Ulrike's favourite brother, otoh, she seems to have gotten along well with Heinrich when he visited in real life (enough so to make a return visit to Rheinsberg later), she like her mother was Braunschweig sisters hostile in the early 1740s, and she doesn't know AW's kids in person, so - she might be all for Heinrich as King and his kids as the successors instead of no longer future FW2, if, that is, she thinks that's what Heinrich wants. If she suspects Sophie is after becoming Regent herself, that's another matter. Meanwhile, Gustav can be trusted to go in the other direction to whatever his mother wants.
The Prussian army: anyone who served in the 7 Years War would probably be pro Heinrich, not sure about the younger ones.
The politicians: FW2's real life ministers hated Heinrich's gut, so their counterpart in this timeline would do anything to prevent either Heinrich or Sophie or both from getting anywhere near power.
Joseph and MT (if she's still alive by the time it comes to ahead, which I assume she would be if Fritz dies in the 7 Years War): MT inwardly is "a plague on both their houses" but outwardly supports the line of succession as previously established (though she lets Sophie know Sophie could always suggest a Pragmatic Sanction. (Since MT inherited over her cousins despite her cousins being the daughters of her father's older brother.) Joseph has mixed feelings (strife within the Hohenzollern clan = good for the Habsburgs; but also, younger brothers getting ursurping ideas = bad) but then thinks that no longer future FW2 sounds like one of his annoying brothers-in-law while Sophie wins him around in a personal encounter (not to Team Heinrich, to Team Sophie).
Louis XV and Louis XVI (depending on when this all goes down): are also cool with inner Hohenzollern strife. Louis XV has fond memories of centuries long French policy to try and support one German ruler against the other, though the other used to be always a Habsburg.
The Hannover Cousins: Young G3 is strictly against anyone making any changes to the rule of succession, thinks this whole secret marriage story sounds fishy (his oldest son is not yet old enough to look guilty when he says this), and since everyone is a good Protestant, doesn't think the deposed Stuarts precedent applies. Sir Charles would lobby him except on Sophie's behalf except Sir Charles has had syphilis in this timeline, too, and thus has gone mad and died as in the prime timeline.
Re: Game of Hohenzollern Thrones, Anhalt!Sophie Style
Date: 2023-11-26 07:06 pm (UTC)What I also want to know is, how is Heinrich reacting here! I could imagine him having strong feelings about this AW marriage, which presumably he knows or at least suspects is Sophie's invention. But maybe he also feels like he would be a good king??
Re: Game of Hohenzollern Thrones, Anhalt!Sophie Style
Date: 2023-11-26 07:00 pm (UTC)Re: Game of Hohenzollern Thrones, Anhalt!Sophie Style
Date: 2023-11-27 07:08 am (UTC)So yeah, that could be a character arc of painful realization for him.