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cahnNot only are these posts still going, there is now (more) original research going on in them deciphering and translating letters in archives that apparently no one has bothered to look at before?? (Which has now conclusively exonerated Fritz's valet/chamberlain Fredersdorf from the charge that he was dismissed because of financial irregularities and died shortly thereafter "ashamed of his lost honor," as Wikipedia would have it. I'M JUST SAYING.)
Archive updates
Date: 2023-05-22 02:00 pm (UTC)I continue to be thankful to
As for the papers, I was afraid that these would be like some of the Prussian archive signatures, where each set is about 5-10 pages, but it looks like the 5 signatures we want will add up to about 1000 sheets of paper total, with some blank pages and some double-sided pages. Hopefully that means there's some juicy stuff in there!! I can't wait!
I don't know how long it will take to be ready, but I assume a few weeks, which is in a way good, because work, which has been crazy last week, is going to continue being crazy for the next week at least and probably the next few weeks. (
Btw, remember when I said that the Lower Saxon archive replies to you in English if you email them in English? This latest email, which was a little more complex because it explained their pricing structure and page estimates (they did not count the ~1000 pages, understandably, they measured the height of the stacks of paper and took a guess at how many pages per centimeter), was still in English, but it had a note at the bottom saying "Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)". And you can tell, because the signature, which was "Mit freundlichen Grüßen/Im Auftrage" in the first email, was now "With kind regards/On behalf".
Selena, I still say that your command of English is unusually good, even for West Germany.
Re: Archive updates
Date: 2023-05-22 05:00 pm (UTC)... now I'm waiting for it to be 950 pages of Karl Ernst Reinhard's financial records and medical bills. ;)
More seriously, I'm still amazed that "Nachlass Peter Keith" is a thing that turned up in an archive. Can't wait to see what's in there!
Re: Archive updates
Date: 2023-05-22 05:28 pm (UTC)Lol, you had the same thought as me! No, the good news is they did a breakdown by signature, and almost 40% of it (as measured by height of the stacks of papers) is the Keith family correspondence.
10%: Papiere zur Familie von Keith 1757-1774
20%: Familiennachrichten, Bestallungen, Korrespondenzen, Rechnungssachen, Kuriosa usw. zur Familie von Keith
33%: Der Nachlaß des Freiherrn von Keith 1764 - 1823
37%: Korrespondenzen aus der Familie von Keith
Now that 33% is subject to being medical bills and financial records. :P Though I have to say, Engel's dissertation says he doesn't know what happened to Knobelsdorff's library after it passed into Peter's possession, and I would love to be able to email him and tell him I found out!
Also, if the memoirs *are* anywhere in there, they're probably in that 10%, which means they're probably not as long as, say, Wilhelmine's memoirs. But I'll take whatever he wrote, and I have my fingers crossed for the long shot that they survived!
More seriously, I'm still amazed that "Nachlass Peter Keith" is a thing that turned up in an archive. Can't wait to see what's in there!
I know, I'm so glad that one 19th century scholar researching the Knyphausens decided to quote one letter from Fritz to Peter and also record where he found the letter! (I am especially grateful to him for that second part.)
Re: Archive updates
Date: 2023-06-13 06:33 am (UTC)Eeeee!
ETA: Make that 1320 files, with an unknown number of two-page files.
ETA 2: Bank transfer initiated! I have told them about my 3-day weekend, and the Prussians usually send the download 2 days later, as soon as the transfer completes, so hopefully it's the same here.
Re: Archive updates
Date: 2023-05-23 01:38 pm (UTC)My life is officially TOO awesome. :P
I also heard from the Lower Saxons today, who estimate "at least two weeks" for the Peter Keith material. Which, given the amount of material and the fact that the Prussians have been known to take 7 weeks for much less than that, is way lower than I'd anticipated.
...Maybe I can get away with a light work schedule in a couple weeks. :P
Re: Archive updates
Date: 2023-05-23 03:01 pm (UTC)Re: Archive updates
Date: 2023-05-23 04:49 pm (UTC)That said, I feel kind of bad about depriving our Rheinsberg readers of a lot of the most exciting discoveries on the grounds that I *might* want to publish them someday, when I have such a bad track record of finishing things! (The Peter essay at least is advanced enough I feel pretty good about getting it publication-ready, although if there's *too* much new material in the archives it might make the project even bigger and more overwhelming! But I'm also pretty motivated rn, so we'll see. Maybe even in a couple weeks!)
TL;DR: Holding off on Rheinsberg for now.
Re: Archive updates
Date: 2023-05-25 01:40 pm (UTC)1.
Very good detective instincts on your part, Holmes. \o/ You seem to have a knack for determining when I shouldn't get excited, it's all a big misunderstanding. ;)
I will post images when I have time so you can see for yourselves.
2. Damnit, I knew this was going to happen, but I was hoping against hope: I ordered the only other Fritz-Suhm correspondence I've found in the online catalogue, which said it contained letters from Fritz to Suhm. Indeed, it is only Fritz to Suhm, not Suhm to Fritz. The only Suhm to Fritz letters I've been able to find are a handful from late 1740, which I got in a previous order and told you about. Where are the Suhm to Crown Prince Fritz letters??? I want to see what Preuss left out!
I might have to ask the archivists and pay for research time.
3. Remember when Peter's mother writes to Fritz asking if Peter can come home, not knowing Fritz has already secretly summoned him? The letter is in German! I'm not surprised, but either it confirms this family of minor nobility was way more comfortable in German than French (maybe especially the women?), or else word hadn't reached Poberow that the new king strongly preferred French.
It's only a paragraph, but I haven't had time to decipher it yet. Will report when I do.
4. Even more goodies, but no time yet.
I've also been reading selected essays from an interesting volume, and have some interesting Fritz tidbits to report, and I'm about to finish up Moltke's life in Danish and would like to report more anecdotes, but...no time!
But stay tuned: the royal decipherer, student of Danish, and very occasional reader of English is hard at work in spare moments!
Re: Archive updates
Date: 2023-05-25 02:08 pm (UTC)Re: Archive updates
Date: 2023-05-26 08:19 pm (UTC)My most recent Suhm letters are from the Nachlaß of Suhm, which was acquired by the Hohenzollerns in 1871. I fear that whatever the 1787 editor decided to omit, will never be found again, and I'm now almost certain that the absence of these letters from the Prussian archive online catalogue reflects an absence of the letters from the archives themselves.
My only consolation prize is this fascinating passage from a book, Monarchy, Myth, and Material Culture in Germany 1750-1950, by Eva Giloi, 2011:
Since manuscripts by Frederick and Luise were consistently "sought-after and well-paid"--even if they did not command the same prices as letters by Beethoven, Goethe, or Wagner--dealers often demanded more than the Prussian monarch wanted to pay to acquire the objects. The monarchy was forced, however, to keep up with these prices, especially for royal manuscripts, whether it wanted to or not. The state had an interest, of course, in securing important letters to support historical scholarship, including the study of the dynasty's own past. Such documents were gathered in the royal archives and published as "mistake-free and reliable" collections.40 But questions of royal, even national prestige were also often at stake, as letters containing compromising material forced the monarch to make expensive acquistions. The most dramatic example was a set of letters that Wilhelm I wrote in the 1850s to Julius von Schleinitz (brother of Alexander von Schleintiz, the later Minister of the Royal Household and close confidant to Wilhelm I). Julius von Schleinitz had helped the unpopular Prince of Prussia flee to England in 1848, and had paid dearly for it: the revolutionary National Committee had confiscated Schleinitz's priceless art collection as punishment for his role in the escape plan. In the following decade, Wilhelm had aired some of his most controversial views in proviate letters to Schleinitz. Not only had he criticized Friedrich Wilhelm IV and the Austrian Emperor Franz Joseph I for being too lenient against former revolutionaries, but he had also advocated the use of all necessary means to fight radical tendencies--"to give them a sound thrashing."
In the early 1880s, at the height of Wilhelm's popularity, Schleinitz's son asked for remuneration for the lost art collection, which he estimated at 50,000 Marks (taking thirty-three years of inflation into account), and offered the incriminating letters in exchange. Rather than insisting on a cash settlement, Schleinitz asked that the emperor compensate him with a loan of 25,000 Marks (at 5 percent interest) and a concession to build a railroad between Marburg and Bremen. Loath to become a money-lender, Wilhelm declined the loan--a shrewd decision, as it turned out. By 1883, Schleinitz was under investigation for fraud and had to flee to the United States to avoid arrest. Nonetheless, Wilhelm could not avoid the fact that the letters' contents threatened to revive the long-dismissed image of him as reactionary Shrapnel Prince, an image that had made him so violently unpopular in 1848. He therefore paid Schleinitz the 50,000 Marks for the letters, partly because he did, in fact, owe Schleinitz Sr. a debt of gratitude, but also to ensure that enterprising dealers and journalists did not profit from his indiscretions.
The personal nature of the Schleinitz case made the exchange feel like extortion, but it also made it manageable. As an individual, Schleinitz Jr. could be dealt with relatively easily. Compromising letters became more problematic when they were circulated through impersonal forces, especially professional dealers for whom financial motivations outweighed personal considerations. Here, Wilhelm often found himself having to pay up to save the monarchy's dignity, as in 1867, when the art dealer Richard Zeune notified the emperor of a a large collection of letters written by Frederick to his sister, Queen Luise Ulrike of Sweden. The letters contained "such harsh opinions and observations by the great king about the heir to the throne" (the later Friedrich Wilhelm II) that the monarchy felt it "would be most unfortunate if they fell into unauthorized hands." Since Frederick shared "his fears, sorrows and joys in the most frank and intimate manner," the letters were sure to find high bidders, so that Wilhelm had no choice but to pay the full asking price of 1,450 Reichsthaler."
Footnote 40 reads, "The acquisition of a set of letters written by the young Frederick the Great to his friend F. von Suhm appeared 'reasonable and appropriate.' GStA PK, I HA Rep. 89 Nr. 2777, correspondence Pertz, Mühler, and Wilhelm I, July 23 and September 15, 1871, Blatt 14-17."
So it's possible the originals of the letters from Suhm that were published in 1787 are still out there in a private collection somewhere, but if so, I don't know what private collection (but hopefully the owners are nice like the Knyphausens when I do eventually turn it up ;)), and the odds are that they're lost to the ages, like the Katte family papers lost in WWII.
Btw, Giloi goes on to talk about even *more* tensions between the monarchy and dealers, like a compromising letter from Queen Luise. The passage starts on page 193 in Google Books preview mode, if anyone else is interested.
I kind of wonder if this means there's nothing terribly interesting (like memoirs) in the Keith Nachlaß, or if it was just never offered up for sale by the Knyphausens (my hope!)
Re: Archive updates
Date: 2023-05-27 06:00 am (UTC)Fritz trash talking nephew future FW2 to Ulrike: no surprise there. And given FW2 was everyone's ancestor while Fritz was everyone's claimed ancestor and most used propaganda myth, also not surprising W1 wanted to keep that under the lid. I mean, historians were already bashing FW2 and weak and dominated by women and spiritualists at the time, but a) they took FW3's lead and mostly blamed the women for it, and b) other people doing it is not the same like letting a royal do it, plus someone might actually ask the question: Yes, but Fritz, why did he turn out that way, given his education was entirely in your hands, and also, are you getting deja vu to how FW1 talked about you?
Sorry about the lack of Suhm stuff. But otoh: no new Suhm letters gives you more time for other things, hint, hint!
Re: Archive updates
Date: 2023-05-27 01:42 pm (UTC)The book looks interesting! The Amazon blurb says, This innovative book illuminates popular attitudes toward political authority and monarchy in eighteenth- and nineteenth-century Prussia, and twentieth-century Germany. In a fascinating study of how subjects incorporated the material culture of monarchy into their daily lives, Eva Giloi provides insights into German mentalities toward sovereign power. She examines how ordinary people collected and consumed relics and other royal memorabilia, and used these objects to articulate, validate, appropriate, or reject the state's political myths. The book reveals that the social practices that guided the circulation of material culture – under what circumstances it was acceptable to buy and sell the queen's underwear, for instance – expose popular assumptions about the Crown that were often left unspoken.
I know you won't have time to read books for a few weeks yet (the Bendas are still on my list to remind you about), but if you someday wanted to check this one out and tell us about it, I would not say no!
And given FW2 was everyone's ancestor while Fritz was everyone's claimed ancestor and most used propaganda myth, also not surprising W1 wanted to keep that under the lid.
Same thing I was thinking!
But otoh: no new Suhm letters gives you more time for other things, hint, hint!
Hee! Yes, and I had plans for this weekend, but SADLY my back pain has been acting up to the point where I've been working half days (despite being behind on my backlog at work) and avoiding salon. So, alas, I am probably not going to be able to transcribe anything or reply to more comments this weekend, and it may be a while before I can tackle this latest Prussian batch. :(
I will try to take advantage of my computer-less time to get some reading done, if my back will let me. There are a few interesting salon-related books I uncovered in the last couple weeks, and maybe I can fit some German reading practice in (which I am v.v. behind on).
Re: Archive updates
Date: 2023-05-25 04:08 pm (UTC)I think it's a mixture of both, and also, who'd tell her? She's writing in 1740, aber all. FW was absolutely insistent on German over French, so any correspondence she may have had with his administration, any petition she may have written predating 1740 would have been in German. Now Peter could have told her, but she hasn't talked to Peter for a decade (at least, we don't know the last time she's seen him pre desertion, do we?), and I bet Not!Robert (what was his name again that we finally found out?) and she avoided Fritz as a topic painstakingly. Of course the entire country knew about FW and Fritz having clashed in 1730 for obvious reasons, but I doubt that gossip included the languages of choice.
All this said, I'm also going with a provincial noble lady in 1740 who got socialized in FW's Prussia where FW ruled for 25 years being actually more comfortable in German than in French. I mean, yes, FW's own kids got native French speakers as governessses and teachers, but he's having his choice of teachers and most of the Huguenot emigrés and their descendants are living in Berlin anyway. Peter's mother is living in the provinces, presumably did before her marriage as well, and her parents had to pick what teachers they could get in the provinces for a not stellar salary. For a mere girl, I doubt they'd bother with a native French speaker, though undoubtedly she was taught some French.
Re: Archive updates
Date: 2023-06-22 12:18 am (UTC)I've been meaning to say, we didn't. What we found out was why McDonogh thought his name was Robert.
The most likely candidate is Georg Wilhelm, but there's another brother named Johann Friedrich who could also be the one. I haven't totally given up hope on finding out, but it's looking less and less likely from my perusals of the Aurich papers.
Re: Archive updates
Date: 2023-06-20 11:44 am (UTC)No memoirs. :(
The stuff the catalogue listed as James Keith is actually James Keith. Go figure, he's everywhere!
The vast majority of the material is not related to Peter; quite a bit of it is related to Carl Ernst; a huge chunk of it seems to be Knyphausens corresponding after Carl Ernst's death. The majority of it may just be Knyphausens, Hertzbergs, and others corresponding with each other with nothing to do with Keiths.
Most of it is in Kurrent, which I GUESS I'm going to have to learn to read a whole lot faster.
There are a couple notes in 1749 (iirc) from Fritz (via a secretary) to Peter saying that he promised to reimburse him for all his confiscated property in Wesel, so here, have (some property??) in the vicinity of Wesel. (Thanks be to Fritz making his secretaries write in French!)
More when I have time.
Still mourning the death of my hopes about the memoirs, but I guess that was too good to be true.
Re: Archive updates
Date: 2023-06-20 03:34 pm (UTC)Re: Archive updates
Date: 2023-06-20 03:46 pm (UTC)Re: Archive updates
Date: 2023-06-21 12:25 am (UTC)January 1749, Peter asks Fritz to reimburse him for the goods belonging to him that were confiscated in Wesel in 1730. Fritz recompenses him by giving him a canonicat in Xanten (which, as we learned earlier in salon, is near Wesel) that has recently become vacant.
In 1755, when Samuel Cocceji (major minister who reformed the Prussian legal system and became the father-in-law of Barberina) died, Fritz put Peter in charge of supervising the work on a marble bust he'd commissioned to commemorate Cocceji.
In mid November 1756, as we know, Peter has a stroke and spends his last weeks arranging his affairs. We have a letter (in French) from Fritz to Peter on December 3, saying formally but warmly that he's sorry to hear the news and hopes Peter recovers, that of course he, Fritz, will grant the favor Peter asked and has given the General Directory his orders, and that it's always a pleasure to have Peter's family under his protection and give them signs of his goodwill.
We also have the letter (in German) to the General Directory, which tells us the favor is exactly what I anticipated: Peter asked if his family could keep living in the Jägerhof after his death, and Fritz said yes. As we know from Lehndorff, but now we know this was something Peter asked for, and not something Fritz and Ariane worked out after Peter's death.
There's also a random letter in German. It's signed by Fritz (the signature matches the Gröben letters), has no date and no recipient, but is in the middle of about 1 dozen letters from Fritz to Peter, but it's the only one in German. I want to do a second pass at the transcription before I say more, but the tone strikes me as markedly more personal. The others, all in French, are formal business letters, usually of the "I need money," "Yes, please wait until it's convenient for me" type that we've seen already.
Re: Archive updates
Date: 2023-06-22 05:48 am (UTC)In either case, it's good Fritz granted it, but in this scenario, it's extra touching - also on a "Peter looking out for his wife and kids" front.
Re: Archive updates
Date: 2023-06-22 03:52 pm (UTC)I will also add that if Peter's letter went out from Berlin on November 30, and Fritz was replying (albeit via secretary) on December 3 in Dresden, that's a pretty quick reply from Fritz. Looks like he didn't put that response off, despite being busy with war
crimes in Saxony.Re: Archive updates
Date: 2023-06-21 12:47 am (UTC)Re: Archive updates
Date: 2023-06-21 01:18 am (UTC)*some time later*
Oh, hey, Leining's signature is showing up on official documents giving Carl Ernst aka Peter Carl jobs.
There's also a genealogy that at least answers one outstanding question I had about the gaps in the other two! Both Formey and the document from the Prussian archive agree that a George Keith married a Stuart, but neither would tell me who. This one tells me it was the daughter of Matthew Stuart, Earl of Lennox.
Beautiful, that's been bugging me since I turned up the eulogy in June of 2020. ;)
Re: Archive updates
Date: 2023-06-22 05:49 am (UTC)And there's an explanation as to why Maupertuis' biography reads so much more drily - his biographers had so much trouble decyphering his letters and only bothered with a few! :)
Re: Archive updates
Date: 2023-06-22 04:54 pm (UTC)I should be fair to Peter, the handwriting's not *that* bad. It's partly a function of me not being fluent in French, and partly a function of the blotches and crossing out and squeezing the new words over the scribbled out words/blotches in between lines. The handwriting per se not nearly as bad as Maupertuis'. :P But unlike Peter's letters to Fritz, I can't eyeball this, and unlike Suhm's letters, I can't even fully sight-read it with concentration. I have to transcribe with lots of Xs, and hope it makes sense when I come back for a second pass.
Whereas with Maupertuis, I'm afraid it will be entirely X's by the time I'm done. :P Peter's is better, though I expect there will still be some Xs if I don't want to spend 30 minutes on single words.
Really, the most useful thing I could do if I want to really do archival research, is take another 1-2 years of studying French and German; so much handwriting is easier if you can immediately think of all the possibilities, than if you have to go character by character.