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cahnLast post, we had (among other things) Danish kings and their favorites; Louis XIV and Philippe d'Orléans; reviews of a very shippy book about Katte, a bad Jacobite novel, and a great book about clothing; a fic about Émilie du Châtelet and Voltaire; and a review of a set of entertaining Youtube history videos about Frederick the Great.
Re: Charles Hanbury-Williams: Man About Town (The Life, I)
Date: 2023-03-25 03:11 pm (UTC)Lots of original documents included will do that to me. :) And I still have to write No.8, H-W's description of the execution of two Jacobite lords.
H-W: He never tells his true thoughts to meeee!
LOL. Well, here's a new bit that didn't make the hagiographic cut which I just found in this essay:
There is also some secondhand evidence about Hervey's homosexuality in a somewhat cryptic letter written by Charles Hanbury Williams to Henry Fox shortly after Hervey's death: "Upon my word Lord Hervey has left Winnington a very handsome legacy & I suppose he'll enter into possession immediately – I suppose Lord Lincoln won't push at him any more. If he does, Hervey will certainly appear backward to him. Poor Fitzwilliams!" Lord Lincoln was famed among his friends for possessing a large penis, and using it well. The Earl Fitzwilliam was so frightened at his marriage that it had to be postponed for a day. Thomas Winnington MP, great friend of the Fox brothers, inherited a legacy from Hervey. Williams' own underlinings provide the clue for the following interpretation: Winnington now has an inheritance of his own and need not submit to the large penis ("handsome legacy") of Lord Lincoln; but if Lincoln persists in trying to bugger ("push at") Winnington, Hervey (as symbol of the inheritance he left Winnington) will appear to bend over and present his arse ("backwards") for Lincoln's desires. Or something along those lines; there are too many clever nudges and winks here for us to quite make sense of it all, but we can see easily enough that Williams is suggesting, by means of italicized puns, that Hervey liked to be buggered.
The essay writer seems to have missed out on Winnington being H-W's friend of friends, so my own interpretation upon reading this was more along the lines of "okay, if Winnington had a fling with Hervey, that explains everything, H-W really was personally jealous." Otoh, the essay writer unfortuntely includes several howlers in this essay that make me wonder about his accuracy. (Keyserlingk was gay and totally did it with Fritz in 1730 already, Peter Keith was "Jacobite exile Keith", Lord Hervey played it cool unlike Lady Mary who was openly emo in the Algarotti triangle (author, you even list Halsband's biography! He quotes Hervey's jealous letters! Hervey would have had every reason to play it cool, absolutely, since he was the clear winner, but those letters when the triangle starts are ravingly jealous and he only cools down later when Algarotti comes back for his second visit), Hervey and Fritz of Wales restored their friendship in 1736 and were back to spending the evenings together (WTF? No book I ever read has this one), Heinrich was the bishop of Magdeburg and made one of his boyfriends canon there (okay, that one is Mirabeau's fault, whom he quotes as a source - remember, Mirabeau before becoming an early idol in the French Revolution wrote a trashy tell all about his visit to the Prussian court which is anti Heinrich in particular - but Bishop of Magdeburg wtf? Methinks Mirabeau simply transposed a well known trope from French history - Philippe the Gay and his handing out abbeys to the Chevalier de Lorraine - to the Prussian present). And some more mistakes like that. But I'm assuming the direct quotes are real, at any rate, and so H-W really wrote this.
The same author has also put up some of Hervey's love letters to Stephen Fox, here. Choice quote: You are my Eau de Barbade, that intoxicates my spirits without vitiating my taste, and are so much superior to common draught in every particular that one need not blush for being drunk with you. At least I dont, and own I languish as much for want of the daily dose of you which I have been so long used to, as Lord Scarsdale can do for his three flasks of claret, and feel as sensible a decay of spirits in a transition to any other company, as he could do upon being reduced to water.
Re: Charles Hanbury-Williams: Man About Town (The Life, I)
Date: 2023-03-25 10:36 pm (UTC)I remember us discussing this a while back, because MacDonogh writes:
He may also have been a homosexual, which, given that he was sharing the prince’s bedroom, could have confirmed Frederick in certain ideas that were only then half-forming in his mind.
Which I initially took at face value and reported to salon, you questioned, and then I checked the footnote, which said, "Roger Peyrefitte, Voltaire et Frédéric II, 2 vols, Paris, 1992, 1, 70. It has to be said, however, that Peyrefitte is not particularly reliable, and assumes Frederick’s circle was exclusively homosexual from the beginning." And then when I googled Peyrefitte, I find he was known for engaging in pederastic affairs and defending pederasty, so...he may have an axe to grind about Keyserlingk/Fritz. :/
Oh, hey, "In Voltaire et Frédéric II he claimed that Voltaire had been the passive lover of Frederick the Great."
Hahaha, Fritz gets posthumous revenge for the memoirs that have him exclusively bottoming. :P
But yeah, I've yet to encounter a reliable source saying anything about Keyserlingk being gay. I wouldn't be surprised if Peyrefitte was your essayist's source. I'm not inclined to go looking for his book, even if he is dead and won't collect the money I spend. (I did eventually break down and buy the 1941 bio of FW by an American Nazi, because it's the farthest back I can trace the claim that Seckendorff smuggled books into Wusterhausen with fake covers, but alas, the Nazi guy doesn't give any citation, so so far that claim has dead ended. If anyone ever finds it, I would love to add it to my Peter Keith essay where I talk about Fritz and Peter sneaking books and reading at night.)
Peter Keith was "Jacobite exile Keith"
Alas, it is the fate of all lesser-known historical Keiths to be confused with James and George.
You are my Eau de Barbade, that intoxicates my spirits without vitiating my taste, and are so much superior to common draught in every particular that one need not blush for being drunk with you. At least I dont, and own I languish as much for want of the daily dose of you which I have been so long used to, as Lord Scarsdale can do for his three flasks of claret, and feel as sensible a decay of spirits in a transition to any other company, as he could do upon being reduced to water.
That is quite an analogy!
The Elusive Keyserlingk
Date: 2023-03-26 01:50 pm (UTC)I mean, his wife and daughter aren't arguments against it - see plenty of gay married men who procreated throughout history - , but if there's no argument for other than "Fritz later was gay", I am immensely sceptical. Especially since Ziebura was able to provide actual quotes proof for the other governor, the one AW, Heinrich and Ferdinand got, being gay, and with Keyserlingk, I didn't see anything other than the early assumption that he was the impeding Big Favourite in 1740. But anyway, I suspect you're right, and this blogger comes by his mistakes honestly, see also his quoting Mirabeau about Heinrich, i.e. he did read up on the people, he just didn't read reliable sources. Though I still want to know who ever claimed Fritz of Wales and Hervey did reconcile.
Re: The Elusive Keyserlingk
Date: 2023-03-26 03:22 pm (UTC)Agreed on both counts.
But anyway, I suspect you're right, and this blogger comes by his mistakes honestly
Yeah, there's so much misinformation out there in respectable history books that I find it hard to fault people who put together websites, fanfics, or YouTube vids for trustingly repeating what they've read. Even I fell for the Keyserlingk claim! (And even if MacDonogh did say "may" in the main text, I blame him, because I don't see why he included it at all, and then hid in an endnote the information that this claim only comes from an assumption that Fritz's entire social circle was gay. Because WHY would you ever make an assumption like that? Unless you had an axe to grind and wanted to claim that all the boys you've been molesting aren't victims at all.)
Though I still want to know who ever claimed Fritz of Wales and Hervey did reconcile.
We could email the essayist and ask! His email is <rictor_norton@yahoo.co.uk>. He may not remember, of course, but he may.
Re: The Elusive Keyserlingk
Date: 2023-03-27 07:44 am (UTC)Agreed up to a point, the point being Sanssouci as a pink palace in the "Bad Gays" podcast, because that really takes seconds to google. :) Oh, and Stephen Fry going "there were PROTESTANT PRINCES in the HRE???" But yeah.
And even if MacDonogh did say "may" in the main text, I blame him, because I don't see why he included it at all, and then hid in an endnote the information that this claim only comes from an assumption that Fritz's entire social circle was gay. Because WHY would you ever make an assumption like that? Unless you had an axe to grind and wanted to claim that all the boys you've been molesting aren't victims at all.
+1 I guess he included it for sensationalism's sake, but he's not making a tumblr post, he's supposed to write a serious biography. Also:
an assumption that Fritz's entire social circle was gay
I mean, it's one thing to do this in fandom - assuming everyone is gay or bi as a default, fair enough - but again, for a biography you need to deliver more than "I want this to be true". Just for argument's sake, though, let's go through a bit Fritz' social circle:
- Algarotti: bi
- Brothers Keith: straight as far as we know. They both had mistresses, but no one, including Voltaire in his trashy pamphlet, ever insinuated they were, to quote Voltaire, "Potsdamites"
- Marquis d'Argens: straight as far as we know. Again, no insinuations to the contrary but various het affairs before he settles down with his ballet dancer
- La Mettrie: I have no idea
- Maupertuis: straight afawk. Various het affairs plus marriage, no gossip to the contrary
- CPE Bach: straight afawk, though since he's working for Fritz and a commoner I'm not sure whether he counts as "social circle"
- Darget: gets classified as a possible Fritz boyfriend because of the Palladion and Fritzian allusions in the letter, but did he ever banter back? Or said something towards anyone else? Not sure about marriage or no marriage, mistresses or not, boyfriends or not.
- Pöllnitz: straight
- Suhm: tender for Fritz in whichever fashion, but otherwise we don't know, other than he was married and had kids, which by itself, see above, not necessarily a proof against, though also not for
- Jordan: no idea, but since he was a clergyman, it would have been somewhat scandalous and would have provided the gossips with some satire material, surely?
- Rottembourg and Rothenburg: Mildred, you're the expert on these two
- Knobelsdorff: straight afawk, to the point where he's one of the few nobles to commit to an open relationship with a commoner
- Wartensleben the possible Manteuffel spy: no idea
...and that's just the most prominent ones, excluding good old Voltaire, and btw, like you I'm amused that Fritz got posthumous revenge re: the bottoming "accusation". So how you could go from there to "exclusively gay" in good faith, I have no idea.
Re: The Elusive Keyserlingk
Date: 2023-03-28 04:56 pm (UTC)Only on one, French Rottembourg, and I've never even been able to figure out if he was ever married or not! I have sources claiming both. I'm leaning toward "probably married," but if so, I can't even tell what her name was, because I have sources claiming "Eva Sophie nee Helmstat" and "Jeanne-Madelene d'Helmstat"!
And that, as we noted, doesn't reflect one way or the other on his sexuality. I've never actually been able to get much about his personal life, just his professional life.
Also, Rottembourg was *not* part of Fritz's social circle; he left for the last time before Fritz even turned 18, and before that, when they were conspiring, they were avoiding interacting directly and were using Knyphausen (Ariane's dad) as a go-between, so that FW didn't get suspicious (which apparently worked!). Again, relying on Lavisse here, and provisionally trusting him.
So how you could go from there to "exclusively gay" in good faith, I have no idea.
Yeah, seriously. Ugh, you're going to make me buy Peyrefitte and see what he says, aren't you. :P Maybe someday when my French is faster.
Re: The Elusive Keyserlingk
Date: 2023-03-26 03:41 pm (UTC)If Monsieur can do it, anyone can do it! :D
Re: The Elusive Keyserlingk
Date: 2023-03-26 03:43 pm (UTC)Re: The Elusive Keyserlingk
Date: 2023-03-27 07:47 am (UTC)Re: The Elusive Keyserlingk
Date: 2023-03-28 04:47 pm (UTC)Monsieur: Don't tell anyone about this!
300 years later
Us: *still laughing*
Re: The Elusive Keyserlingk
Date: 2023-04-02 08:50 pm (UTC)I love the SCIENCE idea!!