cahn

Last post, we had (among other things) Danish kings and their favorites; Louis XIV and Philippe d'Orléans; reviews of a very shippy book about Katte, a bad Jacobite novel, and a great book about clothing; a fic about Émilie du Châtelet and Voltaire; and a review of a set of entertaining Youtube history videos about Frederick the Great.

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From:

selenak

This is still not the write up on the book as a biography, but more quotes. As mentioned elsewhere, H-W was that rarity, an envoy who succeeded in making himself unpopular in Vienna and Berlin to the same degree. As with Fritz, he came with an already formed opinion, slightly revised it upon being received by FS & MT (as opposed to Fritz, they received him quickly), and then went back into critique. Of course, he had the problem that just when he was in Vienna (after his time in Berlin), Kaunitz was coming back from Versailles with a great idea which no one told Sir Charles about for obvious reasons. Also, the Brits were absolutely convinced MT owed them her survival and her throne back in Silesia 1 and never ceased to be amazed that she wasn't properly grateful. The conflict du jour was about the Austrian Netherlands (Belgium), which the Maritime Powers (England and Holland) wanted to make sure Austria did not profit trade wise from, which was one reason why the Team Habsburg tried to get rid of them again for decades if they didn't try to find their way around the Brits. But while this, and H-W lecturing MT, was one reason for the way things went south, another was the undercurrent of Britain never stopping thinking MT owed them for being her ally in Silesia 1 & 2. (Which undoubtedly helped, but I think the Hungarians would like a word as to how crucial that support was.) One big difference to how things went in Berlin was that H-W was actually personally taken with MT and even wrote a romantic poem.

So, what he thought before being received, based on meeting other courtiers:

That Court is, as it has always been, intolerable. My suspicions of those that advise there go very far. They pay no court but to their enemies, and all their opposition is to their friends. They are too weak and too poor to do anything for themselves and too proud to let others do it for them. (...) The Emperor is the most covetous man upon earth. He is very rich, and lends his money out upon interest. But he will have good security, even of his wife, to whom he won't lend a thousand pounds wihtout a pawn, nor then thousand without a mortgage.

Another misunderstanding was that through all those years, Britain thought it had the solution for all Continental troubles: in exchange for voting for Joseph as King of the Romans and thus FS' designated succcessor as Emperor, MT should give the Electors what they want. MT, of course, had other ideas - Joseph getting elected wasn't worth most of this bunch wanted to have, and Britain kept overestimating how eager Team Austria was for that election. (In the end, Joseph wouldn't get elected until after the end of the 7 Years War.)

When H-W meets the Imperial couple, he modifies his opinion to:

Their Imperial Majesties were extremely gracious to me in the audiences which I had of them, and all their Ministers give me great dinners one after another, and show me numberless marks of distinction.

As opposed to Team Prussia, of course. Also, there are hot women, and H-W lists a couple (Princess Liechtenstein, Princess Kinsky and Countess Clary), and if those names sound vaguely familiar, they should - looks like H-W was either into the mothers-in-law or into Joseph's Circle of Five ladies themselves. However, as with Dresden, he's disappointed that partying beyond 10 pm is only done in private houses. And he writes on the MT: hot or not? question.

The manner of living here is agreeeable enough, and would be more so, if there was a supper to be had int he whole town. But all societies disperse at ten o'clock, and everybody retires to his own house at that time. I think there are as many handsome women here as ever I saw. There is a Countess Clary, that is as beautiful and amiable as Nature can form a woman. The Empress herself is what she represents, and has, as Milton says, "in every action, dignity and grace'. She speaks well, and has a peculiar sweetness in her voice; and I was enchanted in all she said to me in my first audience.

So far, so promising. H-W writes a poem of which only two verses survive as they are quoted in someone else's letter: O Regina orbis prima et pulcherima! ridens
Es Vinus, incedens Juno, Minerva loquens.
But alas, all that charm can't disguise she doesn't listen to him/King George. So now we get H-W's revised opinion on the Imperial Couple, which actually is a pretty good portrait for the most part. Scholarly footnote: "Etiquette of the House of Burgundy" - the famous Spanish Etiquette. Had its origin, as H-W correctly says, in Burgundy, and thus child! Charles V HRE was raised with it, and imported it to Spain, where it calcified, and where MT's Dad picked it up again in his unsuccessful attempt to become King of Spain centuries later.)

HIs Imperial Majesty seems to me more formed for what he was born to than for what Fortune has since thrown in his way. Nature designed him to be Duke of Lorraine, but never to be Emperor. His honours sit awkwardly upon hm, and he is visibly uneasy under his dignities. The Etiquet of the House of Burgundy is the thing in the world the most contrary to his dispositions. He suffers in all proceedings and ceremonials of which the court abounds, but he is happy when he gets privately out of the Palace, to walk on the ramparts with his sister or some of his companions without any attendance, and I think also his talents are more suited to a private life than to that high station in which he is placed.
From all the political discourse I have had with him, I am convinced that hemeans perfectly well. France is as odious to him as Prussia is to the Empress-Queen, and he seems to have just sentiments of the necessirty of preserving the strictest friendship with the King. (I.e. G2)
I endeavoured by every method I could think of to find what share the Emperor really had in the management of affairs, and though I discovered that every thing was communicated to him and nothng hid from him by the Empress' special command, and though I am persuaded that Her Imperial Majesty would take it extremely ill of any Minister who should attempt to keep a secret from the Emperor, yet I am equally convinced that the Emperor's opinion has not the greatest weight at the court in affairs of concern, but that the Empress does govern, and govern solely. (...) The Empress will be supreme in her vast territories. (...)
I now come to the Empress-Queen. Her person was made to wear a crown, and her mind to give lustre to it. Her countenance is filled with sense, spirit and sweetness, and all her motions accompany'd with grace and dignity. She is a peson of superior talents, great application to business, and strong passions, which she does not seem to wish to disguise, and which are very sibile in the frequent changes of her countenance. Had her education been suited to her situation and to the part that was designed for her to act upont he Theater of Europe, or had she at her Father's death fallen into the hands of able and honest Ministers, she would have made as great a figure as Elizabeth of England or Isabel of Castile. But during the life of Charles the Sixth she was carefully kept ignorant of all publick affairs. That Emperor took all hte paints imaginable to producre her the succession of great kingdoms and provinces, and at the same time did all that in him lay to render her incapable to govern them.

H-W goes on to blame Count Bartenstein as the worst of ministers who is leading poor, well intentioned MT astray from the path Britain wants her to tread. Bartenstein does this by the dastardly method of sending her all the papers and dispatches instead of letting someone write summaries for the poor, misguided woman.

No extracts, no abridgements were ever made, to save her eyes or her time. But as the Empress's application to business is very great, she read every paper that she received, which took up so much time that she had but very little left oconsider them; and so in the end was always governed by Bartenstein's advice, the effects of which your Grace has but too melancholy proofs of.

But wait! There's this new guy Kaunitz, back from France, looking to replace hateful Bartenstein! Surely this will make MT see the light of how to follow British policies...

It was not difficult to perceive in the conversations which I had the hnour of having with Her Imperial Majesty, that her intentions are to live in the strictest union with the King. But I had the misfortune often to differ with Her Imperial Majesty about the means of cementing that union. Her jealousy of being governed broke out very often, and particularly in the whole story of the Maritime Powers having signed the Preliminaries at Aix without her. Upon this I took the liberty to talk with great freedom to Her Iimperial MJajesty. I recapitulated int eh strongeest manner the many obligations she had to the King, and concluded what I had to say by tellling Her Imperial Majesty, that I believed she was the only person leftin Europe who was not of opinion that the signing those Preliminaries had been the salvation of the House of Austria. (...)
The Empress-Queen was warmed by what I had said, and seemed to take it very ill. But I could not depart from what I was convinced was true. Your grace had ordered me to talk with freedom; and I did so.
Our conversation was still more animated upon the aiffair of the Barrier. As I am convinced that till that point is settled the connection between the House of Austria and the Maritime Powers is but precarious, I was resolved to do my utmost to persuaide Her Imperial Majesty of the necessity of her giving the Maritime Powers satisfaction upo9n that head, and of the injustice with which they had been treated. This I did with a decent freedom. But I am sorry to say I found Her Imperial Majesty so prejudiced in this affair, that reason had very little share in all she said. The notion of being the independent sovereign of the Low Countries is so fixed in her, that it will be difficult to redadicate it. I took the liberty to tell Her Majesty in so many words, that she was far from being the independent sovereign of the Low Countries, that she was lmited by her treaties with the Martime Powers, which I hoped for the future would no more be violated. This Her Imperial Majesty seemed also to take very ill, and insisted loudly, so loudly that the people in the next room heard her, that she was the Sovereign of the Low Countries, and that it was her duty to project her subjects who had been too long oppressed by the Barrier Treaty and deprived of the natural priviileges which all other nations enjoy.

MT isn't done yet:

To England, by the alteration of the old tarriff, to which we have an undoubted right till a new Treaty of Commercie is made and a new tariff settled. To Holland, the non-payment of the subsidy, to which they are justly entitled, and without which they will not be able to maintain their 12, 000 men in the Low Countries.
To this Her Imperial Majesty said that we had not complied with the obligation of the Treaty ofBarrier, that a new treaty and tariff ought o have been made a great while ago, and that it was hig time for her to think of encouraging the trade and manufacturers of her subjects in the Netherlands. That the Barrier towns had been so ill defended in the late war and wer at present in so miseralbe a condition that it was very unsafe to trust the defence of the Netherlands to such precarious aid, and that therefore she was resolved to keep up so large a body of troops in Flanders as should prevent France from over-running that country at pleasure, and that, to enable her to keep up that great body of troops, she could not pretend to continue the full payment of the Dutch subsidy.(...)
I again repeat to your Grace that I think the Empress-Queen a person of superior parts and of strong passions, born to govern, but wishing to extend that government over her Allies as well as her own subjects.

So no, that diplomatic posting isn't a roaring success, either. Exit Charles Hanbury-Williams. Russia awaits!

Edited Date: 2023-03-18 06:29 pm (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Also, the Brits were absolutely convinced MT owed them her survival and her throne back in Silesia 1 and never ceased to be amazed that she wasn't properly grateful.

Didn't they spend most of their time telling her she should just give some land to Fritz already and make peace with him? I can see why she wasn't a big fan.

As a reminder for those who want it, write-ups with context for the restrictions placed on the Austrian Netherlands, Habsburg resentment, and Habsburg desire to either get the restrictions lifted or trade the province for something more useful, can be found here and here.

H-W goes on to blame Count Bartenstein as the worst of ministers who is leading poor, well intentioned MT astray from the path Britain wants her to tread.

Hahaha, wow.

But wait! There's this new guy Kaunitz, back from France, looking to replace hateful Bartenstein! Surely this will make MT see the light of how to follow British policies...

Wow again.

To this Her Imperial Majesty said that we had not complied with the obligation of the Treaty ofBarrier, that a new treaty and tariff ought o have been made a great while ago, and that it was hig time for her to think of encouraging the trade and manufacturers of her subjects in the Netherlands.

Fritz: And y'all complied with the obligation of the various treaties Prussia made with you to recognize the Pragmatic Sanction? Then how come we don't have Jülich or Berg?

So no, that diplomatic posting isn't a roaring success, either. Exit Charles Hanbury-Williams. Russia awaits!

Fourth time's the charm?

We of salon look forward to the Poniatowski, Catherine, et al. quotes! (Man, am I glad I found this book. P.S. I have ordered a copy so that salon shall have it on hand for searchable future reference when the library copy is returned.)

From:

selenak

Didn't they spend most of their time telling her she should just give some land to Fritz already and make peace with him? I can see why she wasn't a big fan.

They did, and of course, their alliance was also based on the fact Britain did not want France to put a French dependent client king on the imperial throne. (Whereas if you read H-W, you'd think the Brits only supported her in Silesia 1 out of the goodness of their hearts.

From:

cahn

And he writes on the MT: hot or not? question.

Haha I love this every time it comes up.

H-W goes on to blame Count Bartenstein as the worst of ministers who is leading poor, well intentioned MT astray from the path Britain wants her to tread. Bartenstein does this by the dastardly method of sending her all the papers and dispatches instead of letting someone write summaries for the poor, misguided woman.

LOLOLOLOL! How dare you, Bartenstein!

From:

selenak

In all fairness, I was reminded that by the next century, in Metternich's day, one of the most common complaints was that letters took not days or weeks but years until they got read by the Imperial Chancellery, and either hiring more people or going for brief summaries would have helped (though that was just one of many many problems leading to the Viennese version of the 1848 revolutions), but that was in a very different situation.

Incidentally, I wonder how much or little G2 got to read directly as opposed to getting briefs during this time, because that's the obvious comparison for H-W to make internally. Despite MT being an absolute monarch and G2 a very limited one in Britain - though absolute in Hannover - with the PM doing most of the governing. Still, even Elizabeth II, with no power at all, famously got briefed on all goings on via the papers in the red box as The Crown tells us.

Anyway, after having read the Brühl biography where Britain pressures MT to make concessions to Saxony as well as to Prussia in 1741, I find the British "why isn't she more grateful?!?" attitude displayed by all the English diplomats I've read so far even more hilarious.