cahn | Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 41

Now, thanks to interesting podcasts, including characters from German history as a whole and also Byzantine history! (More on this later.)

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From:

cahn

arrrrgh! :(

I am just going to think of this as Reason #2567 Why I Am Glad I Did Not Live in the Past. Especially with Two X Chromosomes.

This is one of those times where I'm like, maybe it wasn't SO bad that she died of scarlet fever at age 23? ARGH.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Reason #2568: I just got to the part in Moltke's memoirs where Louise dies. Here's his account.

She's pregnant, but has an umbilical hernia. The doctors say the only way to save her is to have an operation. She refuses the operation. They go talk to Frederik and urge him to talk her into it. Out of "tenderness" toward the queen, Frederik can't bring himself to, but he also apparently can't get enough of delegating (this is my commentary), so he sends Moltke to talk to her and beseech her in the King's name to undergo the operation.

Moltke says he doesn't even have to use any of his arguments; the moment the words are out of his mouth that the King wants it, Louise says she makes a practice of treating her husband's wish as her command, and she agreees to the operation.

She dies. Moltke's not clear whether it's because of the operation or in spite of the operation.

Frederik almost dies of grief, but fortunately, the doctors bleed him so that he's able to live many more years to bring his subjects happiness.

I do wonder if Moltke's eliding the part where the operation he talked her into killed her? And Frederik was struck by not just guilt for sleeping around on her (and possibly yelling at her and even hitting her? if Moltke's experience is anything to go by?) but also by talking her into the operation.

Okay, Moltke says it was very difficult to talk him into remarrying. Even beyond just having lost his wife, if he feels guilty about the operation, I don't wonder he was reluctant! Moltke gives a bit more detail on the marriage negotiations and says they wanted the English princess Augusta, but she was only 14 and not in great health, so the British wanted to wait at least 2 years before marrying her off (good for them!), forcing the Danes to look elsewhere.

Frederik then wants to send Moltke to check out Juliana Maria and the two other princesses being considered and see if he thinks Frederik will like her. Moltke's response is that of course he will go if the king wants, *but*, since Moltke makes a point of never leaving Frederik, if he suddenly goes to different courts, everyone's going to know why, and that will make his task extraordinarily difficult, and also he doesn't want the responsibility, and so can Frederik please let him off the hook here?

But all the correspondence on the matter passes through Moltke's hands, so he's able to give Frederik the rundown and his own opinion on the matter, "without presuming to anticipate or guide the king's own choice." You keep telling yourself that, Moltke.

Huh, I need to reread this section more slowly. Holm said Moltke "clearly implied" Frederik wanted to marry his daughter, and yet I missed it even though it's what I was looking for. No, still not seeing it. Well, Holm doesn't give a page number, so maybe it's somewhere else. Will report back if I find it.

Okay, skimming ahead, Moltke's definitely claiming involvement in the West Indies slave trade. Well, there we go. As it was foretold, so it has come to pass.

Did we ever determine whether Fredersdorf owned a slave plantation overseas? I know we discussed it, and we found evidence of overseas possessions, but I think we couldn't find the evidence for the specific claims that would imply slavery?

Anyway, more to come, unless I get distracted, as is my wont. ;)

From:

selenak

Re: Umbilical Hernia operation -as I recall Caroline (Frederik's mother-in-law, Queen of England, former FW crush and most importantly mother of Louise, who as this happened in the later 1730s presumably would have been a witness) died of an umbilical hernia which got untreated for years and then got operated on too late. To quote wiki's summary: (M)ore seriously she had suffered an umbilical hernia at the birth of her final child in 1724. On 9 November 1737, she felt an intense pain and, after struggling through a formal reception, took to her bed. Part of her small intestine had poked through the hernia opening. Over the next few days she was bled, purged, and operated on, without anaesthetic, but there was no improvement in her condition.

=> Louise's last days must have been an absolute nightmare, knowing and remembering how things went with her mother, and I just bet Moltke is prettifying everything with her immediate consent at the King's wish and what not.

Moltke gives a bit more detail on the marriage negotiations and says they wanted the English princess Augusta, but she was only 14 and not in great health

So marrying the unbalanced alcoholic to a 14 years old girl is okay if it's not his own daughter: noted. I mean, yes, realpolitik in the era, but Augusta clearly had a lucky escape.

Did we ever determine whether Fredersdorf owned a slave plantation overseas? I know we discussed it, and we found evidence of overseas possessions, but I think we couldn't find the evidence for the specific claims that would imply slavery?

I don't recall exactly, either, the way I remember it is him having shares in a trading company. Now presumably there were overseas trading companies in the era which absolutely did not do any slavery (in addition to all the other stuff they primarily did), but the odds aren't really good in the 18th century.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

died of an umbilical hernia which got untreated for years and then got operated on too late.

What I remember of Caroline's hernia, though, is that it was misdiagnosed: the doctors thought it was a growth, so they cut off the part that was sticking out, instead of trying to put it back inside her. Then she had a hole in her large intestine and died, my guess is, of sepsis.

Not that dying of a correctly diagnosed and treated umbilical hernia would have necessarily been any better! She must have been in terror, as you say: she was about 13 when her mother died, plenty old enough to remember.

I'm sure Moltke is prettifying everything; he's clearly glossing over anything and everything that he doesn't want public knowledge. Like I said, I can't even tell how the operation went. She complies with her husband's wishes like a good wife, the operation "doesn't help as hoped," and she says super nice things to Moltke right before dying. The end.

Moltke's whole memoirs are kind of like the anti-Hervey: "discretion" is his watchword. That makes it all the more interesting when he *doesn't* feel the need to gloss over something, like how codependent he and Frederik are, or Frederik's constant apologizing.

Can you imagine how Hervey would have written about a king wanting to be *his* son-in-law? :P

So marrying the unbalanced alcoholic to a 14 years old girl is okay if it's not his own daughter: noted. I mean, yes, realpolitik in the era, but Augusta clearly had a lucky escape.

She dodged a bullet! *looks up who she married* The Duke of Brunswick, the son of Charlotte and brother of Anna Amalia.

But to be fair, we don't actually know that Moltke *did* object to his 14-yo daughter marrying the unbalanced alcoholic. Busck and I have the same question when he gushes over Frederik, which is: "Are you just covering for him, or are you sitting in a kitchen that's on fire, holding your mug and going 'This is fine!'?"

Let's remember that Moltke was pretty much the only one who thought Frederik *should* get married immediately. Granted, the first marriage worked out okay for Frederik (poor Louise), but it sure didn't fix the problems it was supposed to fix. For all we know, he would have been gung-ho about having Frederik as his daughter's husband if not for all the other numerous problems!

I don't recall exactly, either, the way I remember it is him having shares in a trading company.

No, I distinctly remember discussion of plantations in addition to that. Okay, rereading this thread, we were unable to definitively trace those claims, and the discussion petered out with us all shrugging and concluding we could be wrong.

From:

selenak

Moltke's whole memoirs are kind of like the anti-Hervey: "discretion" is his watchword. That makes it all the more interesting when he *doesn't* feel the need to gloss over something, like how codependent he and Frederik are, or Frederik's constant apologizing.

Can you imagine how Hervey would have written about a king wanting to be *his* son-in-law? :P

ZOMG, I wish I could read this. Mind you, Hervey wanted post mortem pay back, so their entire motivation for writing their respective memoirs in the first place are opposites, too. Now I'm wondering how Hervey would have reacted if either a widowed G2 had proposed after Caroline's death, or Fritz of Wales had decided to make up to him by doing that instead of his actual marriage. Mind you, both possibilities would have needed a daughter of Hervey's being old enough, which I don't think would have been the case, but let's say he does have a 14 years old available, just as Moltke, did. Hm.

Fritz of Wales: this is easy. Hervey doesn't risk it because he has no idea how long it's going to be till Fritz of Wales becomes King, there's always the danger that G2 and Caroline will risk creating a succession problem by assigning Hannover to Fritz of Wales and making William Cumberland the future English monarch like they had wanted so badly in G1's life time, and he knows both of them, who are the power holders for the immediate future, would be PISSED. Let's not forget that Hervey thought he could do a Buckingham and be a favourite for Caroline and Fritz of Wales at the same time, and this really really did not work, and he prioritized Caroline. So if this is in the early 1730s before their fallout, Hervey is flattered but doesn't do it. Or he is paranoid and thinks Fritz of Wales wants to make him look bad in front of Caroline, if this is after their fallout.

G2 proposes after Caroline's death: In this case, Hervey goes for it. Not least because as far as I recall from his biography - the memoirs don't even mention his kids - , he was happy letting his wife take care of the kids in the provinces while he lived and wasn't above using them AW style in that weird testament clause where he wanted another woman to raise them, but didn't show interest in actually interacting with them. Not that unusual for professional courtiers, of course. So I don't think he'd have been concerned for a daughter of his to marry into the Hannover clan. He'd have been aware this would anger most of the other noble families, but at this point, he was feuding with many anyway, so this would have been a feature, not a bug. And for all that the Brits were snobs vis a vis the Hannovers and saw them as noveau riche, let's not forget: never mind the Stuart connection, G2 was a Welf. He was a member of one of the oldest, proudest noble families of Europe who could trace themselves back as nobles to Charlemagne's day, which was more than any of the then current British noble families could say for themselves. And a vengeful Hervey, still not over being dumped by Fritz of Wales, would have hoped that maybe a grandson of his would end up as King of England. So yeah. He absolutely would have accepted that proposal. And then gone on to satirize the Hannovers some more in his memoirs.

ETA: Additional question: If Hervey becomes G2's father-in-law in the late 1730s, does Algarotti remain in London in 1740? I mean, yes, Fritz impressed him, but Hervey is unequestionably into him, and if Hervey is the King's father-in-law, he has both means and position to get Algarotti jobs and riches. I mean, living in Berlin, living in London, in 1740, there aren't many who'd pick Berlin/Potsdam...

Edited Date: 2023-02-21 10:55 am (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

ZOMG, I wish I could read this.

I know, right?! I love your exploration of the possibilities!

He'd have been aware this would anger most of the other noble families, but at this point, he was feuding with many anyway, so this would have been a feature, not a bug.

Ahahahaa, I laughed so hard. It's funny 'cause it's true!

I mean, yes, Fritz impressed him, but Hervey is unequestionably into him, and if Hervey is the King's father-in-law, he has both means and position to get Algarotti jobs and riches. I mean, living in Berlin, living in London, in 1740, there aren't many who'd pick Berlin/Potsdam...

Hmm. The marriage would have had to take place after Algarotti's visit to Fritz in 1739, otherwise I assume he wouldn't have gone traveling in the first place, and thus not have had to make a choice. So if you assume that timing...he might have stayed, yeah! Unless Lady Mary was driving him crazy. :P

I mean, living in Berlin, living in London, in 1740, there aren't many who'd pick Berlin/Potsdam...

Agreed. How long before Algarotti gets tired of whatever job he has in London, though? Even with August the Chill in Saxony, he didn't stay long. I think he was a "grass is greener" personality. Fritz might still have been able to win him over.

(I love the image of him leaving his luggage behind, though. I'm glad it happened that way for sheer entertainment purposes, although of course irl I'm sorry he was in for such a rude shock!)

From:

selenak

he might have stayed, yeah! Unless Lady Mary was driving him crazy. :P

I don't think Lady Mary is still in England! Didn't she leave between the first and the second Algarotti trip to London, in the expectation of reuniting with him in Italy etc.?

How long before Algarotti gets tired of whatever job he has in London, though? Even with August the Chill in Saxony, he didn't stay long. I think he was a "grass is greener" personality. Fritz might still have been able to win him over.

True enough, though I would suggest he'll stay at least until the first Silesian War is over. I mean, it's one thing to go to peace time Prussia, and another to go to war time Prussia knowing the King won't be there. Furtherly given the London attractions, which, hey, include favourite dish Andrew Mitchell, I think it's even more likely Algarotti will wait until the second Silesian War is over, and then he goes to reunite with his glorious Warrior King. Not least because by then, I expect also the following will have happened:

G2 & fictional teenage daughter of Hervey = catastrophe. G2 was seriously in love with Caroline, and neither of his chosen long time mistresses was a teenage girl. He would not have had the patience to try to win her over, and by himself he's a middle aged to old overweight German obsessed with continental geneaology and his long ago short time in the field, neither one a subject of interest to a teenage English aristocrat, who already kept comparing Caroline to his mistress when she was alive (in Caroline's favor) and is bound to say something like "Caroline would have understood!" at the first opportunity. It's the Rebecca situation from hell, only this Maxim was actually in love with his first wife. And yes, I know Philip V. of Spain's wives were at the start teenage girls who could and did manage a depressive unstable royal husband, winning his love to boot, but I dare say those are the exceptions from the rule.

So basically, the marriage is a failure, G2 blames Hervey, because of course he would, Hervey's dreams of a career have gone through the toilet, his mood is terrible, and Algarotti's "getting the hell out of there!" instinct would have been on highest alert.

I love the image of him leaving his luggage behind, though. ,

Oh, me too. And that in rl, Lady Hervey was the one who had to send it after him.

From:

cahn

So basically, the marriage is a failure, G2 blames Hervey, because of course he would, Hervey's dreams of a career have gone through the toilet, his mood is terrible, and Algarotti's "getting the hell out of there!" instinct would have been on highest alert.

I'm glad this didn't happen for the sake of the fictional teenage daughter, but (perhaps because it iddn't happen) I find it wildly entertaining!

From:

mildred_of_midgard

I don't think Lady Mary is still in England! Didn't she leave between the first and the second Algarotti trip to London, in the expectation of reuniting with him in Italy etc.?

Oh, right you are! She left in July. How could I forget?

Do you think she'd have come back if he had a permanent job in England thanks to Hervey, though? At the time she discovered he wasn't in Italy, he was roaming around Europe homeless; if she decided they'd just gotten their messages mixed, she might have gone back home.

Or not! She was honestly better off in Italy far away from him, imo.

Furtherly given the London attractions, which, hey, include favourite dish Andrew Mitchell, I think it's even more likely Algarotti will wait until the second Silesian War is over

Yes, I like your timeline!

And yes, I know Philip V. of Spain's wives were at the start teenage girls who could and did manage a depressive unstable royal husband, winning his love to boot, but I dare say those are the exceptions from the rule.

Agreed, and I think that worked because they were in the specific position that Moltke would later play for Frederik: being 24/7 emotional support while interfacing between the sick king and the nobles. Both of the wives, I believe, and maybe especially Isabella Farnese, had to do what looks like far more 24/7 support (as well as sex) for Philip than Moltke had to do most of the time for Frederik. Frederik seems to have been rather less incapacitated than Philip, who in turn seems to have been less incapacitated than GG. Who, though, came to power at a much older age than Frederik even lived to, so if you compare reign to reign, Frederik got more done; if you compare life to life, GG might have been in a better position to not drink himself to death if he'd inherited at age 20.

Oh, me too. And that in rl, Lady Hervey was the one who had to send it after him.

YES!

From:

cahn

Lol I don't think I can possibly handle Unsent Letters (I only completed my Candy Hearts assignment by the skin of my teeth ) but this makes me want to try!

He'd have been aware this would anger most of the other noble families, but at this point, he was feuding with many anyway, so this would have been a feature, not a bug

LOLOLOL! (But the whole thing is great.)

From:

selenak

I'm not sure whether I can do Unsent Letters, either, but then again just in case I did nominate the Josephus Trilogy characters in addition to 18th Century people, I'll have you know. In case someone wants to write missing Joseph/Justus letters. Or something. (BTW, the only relationship I didn't manage to squeeze in was Berenice of Cilicia & Antonia Caenis, because I nominated Mara with several other women. In case you want to nominate as well, is all I'm saying.

Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Moltke's memoirs

From:

cahn - Date: 2023-02-26 05:23 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Moltke's memoirs

From:

selenak - Date: 2023-02-26 07:58 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Moltke's memoirs

From:

cahn - Date: 2023-02-28 06:17 am (UTC) - Expand

From: (Anonymous)

She dodged a bullet! *looks up who she married* The Duke of Brunswick, the son of Charlotte and brother of Anna Amalia.

I am sorry to report she dodged a bullet and landed in front of a cannon. Her marriage was spectacularly awful, and produced Caroline of Brunswick (wife of George IV), who bitterly recalled that she couldn't compliment either parent without the other becoming furious, in addition to not being allowed to see any men ever, and getting inadequate teaching and instructions on personal hygiene*. It certainly reads as though they were too busy scoring points off each other to notice their children.

*Well, Caroline just didn't wash. This was probably personal preference.

From:

aella_irene

Aargh, this was me, it logged me out!

From:

cahn

Ahhhhh hi hi!! Excited to see you here providing us with more ~~historical gossip~~ history!

Although that's very sad about Augusta. Gosh, reason #2176 why I wouldn't want to live in the past. Poor Augusta. :(

Yeah, I know quite a few kids who would not wash if their parents did not instruct them to do so :P (As well as at least one teenager who doesn't shower despite both parental and peer pressure, though I suspect some sensory issues at play there.)

ETA: I meant to say, welcome!! and just fyi, as you may have noticed the history posts are tagged "frederick the great" (even though obviously not all the comments are about him) -- once we get to about 300 comments we make a new post, and I don't think everyone is always tracking the old posts (I only do because it's my DW!) -- so, to make sure everyone sees, it is often more efficient to post on the latest post, even if it's about something that happened on an old post. (Although right now everyone is kind of busy, too :) )

Edited Date: 2023-05-01 04:11 am (UTC)

From:

cahn

hahahaha OMG YES #2568
(I bet they bled her. And didn't wash their hands. Note to self: if I ever find a time machine and go back in time, stay the HECK away from any doctors!)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Reason #2569: I found the part where Moltke implies Frederik wanted to marry his daughter.

On this joyous and happy occasion the most illustrious had given me the Elephant Order* and made already mentioned propositions to me, which however, as already happened (mentioned?), were refused and forbidden by me. Likewise, before the wedding, it pleased His Majesty to make another another extremely important and, to someone led by vanity, advantageous recommendation to me, which, God be praised, I in the deepest humility refused. My family would thereby be made happy for a time, but also be envied and persecuted by many people, and, in the end, become unhappy. I see it as an especially grace of the Almighty that he had given me the strength and courage to avoid this extremely gracious but also extremely dangerous favor.

* Mildred note: It always makes me laugh, but the Elephant Order in Denmark is serious business! I guess having your order named after a Golden Fleece or especially a garter is objectively more ridiculous, I'm just used to those!

Yeah, Moltke, I can see a number of ways this could go wrong:

- Alienate the other nobility and ruin that tightrope you're walking you're walking as a powerful royal favorite.

- Denmark has to pass up a better political alliance, like having a queen related to Fritz instead of to Some Dude from Mecklenburg.

- Your daughter has to watch her husband cheat on her.

- Your daughter gets an STD.

- Your daughter gets abused by an alcoholic with anger management issues.

- Your daughter and Frederik don't actually get along, and you get stuck in the middle.

- Your daughter and Frederik don't actually get along, and Frederik blames you.

And what would Moltke gain from this marriage alliance? Literally nothing except vanity, as far as I can tell. Normally I would accuse him of being disingenuous there, but in this case, he really has everything he wants. It can only go downhill from here.

But you may notice Moltke doesn't actually say anything about marriage, which is why Holm says "clearly implies." The editor of Moltke's memoirs adds a footnote:

Count Moltke here, as elsewhere in the memoirs, does not want to say or speak plainly. What he is referring to, however, must have been the king's idea of marrying a daughter of the count himself. This I have from what I believe to be the best possible source. According to the age conditions, the daughter cannot have been anyone other than Count Moltke's eldest daughter Catherine Sophie Wilhelmine, born October 14, 1737, and she was also married to Count Hannibal Wedel-Wedelsborg at an unusually early age, hardly 14 3/4 years old, on June 16, 1752, i.e. about a month before the king's marriage. He died at a young age as Privy Councilor and Master of the Court to Princess Sophie Magdalene.

And that,

cahn, being married off at 14 3/4 years because your dad is the king's BFF and the king wants to be related to him, is Reason #2569 Why You Am Glad You Did Not Live in the Past. Especially with Two X Chromosomes.

In this case, maybe it's not so bad that her husband died young? Widows had it pretty good in these societies, as such things go.

Okay, geni.com says the husband was born in November 1731, so "only" 6 years older than her. I was afraid it was more! And he died at age 34 in 1766, meaning she was widowed after 12 years of marriage, at age 26.

Oof, she gets pregnant in less than a year, though, and has 4 kids: 1753, 1755, 1760, 1762. So she's a widow with a bunch of kids on her hands.

But she lives to be 68, dying only in 1806. Let's hope something worked out for her in that time.

Speaking of Moltke and his kids, though, he got married in 1735, and I totally predicted his oldest son's name...*drumroll*...Christian Frederik! These people are so predictable. (You may notice/appreciate how consistent I've been about spelling Frederik the Danish way. At one point, Oettinger has to write, "Friedrich--I speak now of Friedrich V of Denmark, not Friedrich II of Prussia...")

Less predictable: young Moltke married when he didn't have a lot of money (although apparently his wife's father did, so that helped), after a 7-year engagement. That means he must have gotten engaged around 17 or 18, married as soon as he could, remained married 25 years, then got married again in about 4 months after his wife died, and remained married until he died. Producing 22 kids in that time. This was an extremely married man!

So here's the other thing. We all know Frederik didn't want to get married. I've read in a number of places that the remarriage was extremely unpopular with the Danish population at large, because Louise had been really popular (she was friendly! learned Danish and taught her kids Danish! no one had ever done that before!) and they thought it was in bad taste.

Moltke's official reason was "for the good of the state," but all my secondary sources say "because the nobles wanted to get Frederik under control."

But, like, they tried Operation Get Frederik Under Control Via Marriage, and it didn't work the first time! What makes anyone think it's going to work any better the second time? (Spoiler: it doesn't.)

So really, the only reasons I can think of that this remarriage makes sense is:

1. Operation Be Related to Someone Powerful, like Fritz

2. That statement in Moltke's memoirs where he (paraphrasing from memory) thanks God for sending him a second wife to comfort him so soon after his first wife's death.

I kind of suspect the real driver here is Moltke's deep emotional conviction that remarriage is the best thing for you, which he rationalized as "But who doesn't want to be related to Fritz three different ways??"

Selena, I'm going to read Hartmann, but you know how slow and easily distracted I am--do you remember how Bernstorff the anti-Prussian foreign minister felt about this marriage?

Also, I just want to say that someone I was reading today, maybe Holm, maybe Oettinger, said that Juliana Maria is to be praised for not joining a conspiracy with Fritz to overthrow Bernstorff, because she could so easily have done that.

Okay, with luck I sleep more tonight and have actual concentration tomorrow and can go back to proper German and French practice and stop rambling at everyone about my latest Danish obsession. I have German to read! [ETA: Yes, of course I've been reading German today, but it makes a difference when it's for practice rather than detective work.] Philippe the Badly Combed wants to know what happened to French! Eugene is sad at his neglect.

Edited Date: 2023-02-19 12:25 am (UTC)

From:

selenak

Louise had been really popular (she was friendly! learned Danish and taught her kids Danish!

Again with the Caroline connection: reminder that Louise's mother won hearts and minds by learning English even before Anne died, back when everyone was still in Hannover, making her husband learn English, and making her children learn English (including poor absent Fritz of Wales in Hannover, who had it on his teaching schedule). All of which made her way more popular than her father-in-law G1. Louise came from a family which did have the experience of ruling over a country with a different native language.

do you remember how Bernstorff the anti-Prussian foreign minister felt about this marriage?

No, unfortunately I don't.

From:

cahn

I think also the Elephant Order is funny because... I don't think of Denmark as really being a place where I'd expect to see elephants, or orders relating to the same! Whereas garters are intrinsically more ridiculous but at least they seem like they belong a bit more :)

And that, [personal profile] cahn, being married off at 14 3/4 years because your dad is the king's BFF and the king wants to be related to him, is Reason #2569 Why You Am Glad You Did Not Live in the Past. Especially with Two X Chromosomes.

YEEEEEAH. I feel like it's so sad when we learn that these past women have a horrible terrible no-good life but at the same time it's all "but XX had a near escape! Just listen to what her life COULD have been like if it had gone down this path instead!"

You may notice/appreciate how consistent I've been about spelling Frederik the Danish way.

haha, I have appreciated this!

1. Operation Be Related to Someone Powerful, like Fritz

Wait, isn't that the usual reason for nobility to get married?

From:

selenak

I think also the Elephant Order is funny because... I don't think of Denmark as really being a place where I'd expect to see elephants, or orders relating to the same! Whereas garters are intrinsically more ridiculous but at least they seem like they belong a bit more :)

Well, it's not like the Golden Fleece was at home in Burgundy. :) Also the Order of the Garter gets the price for best motto with Honi Soit Qui Mal Y Pense, supposedly what Edward III' said while picking up the garter of the not his wife lady he was dancing with. But "Order of the Elephant" made me smile as well, and I am curious which Dane thought to name it like that - or was it something the Oldenburgs came up with, in which case, which German?

From:

mildred_of_midgard

It's hard to say from Wikipedia whose *idea* it was, but it's old, almost as old as the Order of the Golden Fleece:

A predecessor order called the Brotherhood of the Mother of God Society was founded by King Christian I around 1460 and sanctioned by the Pope. Because this brotherhood was active in ecclesiastical areas, the king had the order confirmed by bulls from Popes Pius II (1462) and Sixtus IV (1474). At that time the image of the Virgin Mary holding the Christ Child hung on the chain of the order, while the chain showed elephants and towers.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

I think also the Elephant Order is funny because... I don't think of Denmark as really being a place where I'd expect to see elephants, or orders relating to the same!

You're right! I wouldn't bat an eye at an Elephant Order in India.

Wait, isn't that the usual reason for nobility to get married?

Yes, but not usually a reason for them to get remarried within 6 months when they already have an heir! I can only think of one other example where a king's remarriage happened that fast (Selena will probably think of more), and it was Philip "the Frog" V, who was incapacitated and needed a wife to be his Moltke: 24/7 emotional support and go-between with the ministers.

Joseph, Philippe d'Orleans, Friedrich I of Prussia...all these people needed heirs and *still* took over a year to remarry. It was considered in bad taste for Frederik to remarry so quickly, and wasn't good PR for him or Juliana Maria.

There wasn't a huge amount of pressure at this time for Frederik to be related to someone ASAP, and the marriage to Juliana Maria didn't bring huge immediate advantages to Denmark's neutrality policy. I suspect the reasons were more internal and personal, not foreign policy related.

Wait, I just remembered Paul of Russia: he needed an heir and was pressured into remarrying in 5 months. But there was no question why: Catherine needed to stabilize her position on the throne by ensuring the succession. Having a spare for Frederik was nice, but not nearly this urgent (as it wasn't for Philip V either.)

From:

selenak

Agreed that remarrying within a few months even with the pressure of needing an heir was seen as unusual/distateful and always remarked upon. Mind you, all those Western nobles and Kings at least could remarry without creating a major ruckus with the Church. Because one of those differences between the Eastern Church and the Western Church even before the great Schism was that for the later, even second marriages were side-eyed and regarded as distateful and only to be performed in dire, completely heir-less situations for monarchs (and not at all, preferably, for non-monarchs); third marriages were a sin you needed a special clerical indulgence for, and any more marriages were just out of the question and illegal. Now, obviously, in the West, this wasn't an issue. Charlemagne was married five times, and the Popes didn't blink. Meanwhile, in Constaninople, there's the (in)famous case of Leo IV "The Wise", who scandalized his (Eastern) contemporaries by marrying the sinful four times in order to produce an heir, thus causing the earlier mentioned almighty ruckus with the Patriarch of Constantinople.

Mind you, Leo was unorthodox in other ways, too, starting with his unclear parentage.

Basil I: Hi, I'm the founder of a new dynasty, starting out a lowly but handsome peasant in Macedonia. When I came to court, I caught the eye of Emperor Michael III., who liked me so much he ordered me to marry his favourite mistress. I convinced Michael my uncle Bardas, who'd brought me to court, was actually after his crown, and we killed him together. Fun times. Now, my least favourite kid Leo was born during those years, and may not have been my kid at all but Michael's, something no one was ever clear on, due to my wife having sex with us both. Anyway, Michael sadly was starting to favor another guy, and being a long term strategist with ambition, I couldn't have that, so I offed Michael and the annoying other guy and set up shop for myself. That's why my dynasty is called the Macedonian dynasty. Though newer research favours the theory we were actually Armenians. In any event: I ruled. I also couldn't stand my maybe not kid Leo, who was the bookish type and just annoying, and would have prefered to make unquestioningly-my-kid Alexander, my younger boy, my successor, so I raised him to be my Caesar and Co-Emperor. I was about to blind Leo to ensure Alexander wouldn't get trouble, but the Patriarch talked me out of it. Shows how much he knew. Then I died in the aftermath of a hunting accident, and wouldn't you know it, Leo reburied Michael with great ceremony in the Imperial Mausoelon basically the moment I closed my eyes. I knew it!

Leo IV: I kept on brother Alexander as my Co-Emperor, though I didn't give him any power. Still: no castration, no blinding, is what I'm saying. I was a fraternally minded guy in general, like the time I made my other younger brother John at age 19 Patriarch of Constantinople, firing the previous Patriarch for all the fuss he made about my marriages. But to tell things in order, my wives were:

1.) Theophano Martinakia: Dad made me marry her. So of course, I couldn't stand her. (Hi Fritz! Hi, Heinrich!) The relationship between us being what it was. We had a daughter, so shortly after I made it to the throne, I made he retire into a nunnery. This, I'll have you know, is an absolutely valid reason to dissolve a marriage. (Hi, Peter the Great!). I then married:

2.) Zoe Zaoutzaina: My true love. (The first one.) She had been my mistress for years by the time I dissolved my first marriage and married her. Now, some sources say I married her again after Theophano M. died in that nunnery, and some say I didn't, but I certainly demanded everyone treat her as the Empress, so chances are I considered us married. In any event, we sadly had only daughters. This left me with an obvious problem when Zoe died. Which brings me to:

3.) Eudokia Baiana. My beloved Zoe died in May 899, and I married Eudokia in the spring of 900, so yeah, only a few months. But that wasn't what got people's feathers ruffled. Third marriages were considered illegal as a rule, but I went down on my knees to the Patriarch, pointing out that brother Alex really wouldn't cut it as sole Emperor, and he said yes to Eudokia. Within a year, she got pregnant and delivered a boy. Alas, this son lived only for a few days, and she died as well. You can see my ongoing problem. Not least because people said that clearly, my second marriage had already been sinful, not to mention the third, and God was punishing me by refusing me a living son. Well, I disagreed. Which brings me to:

4.) Zoe Karbonopsina. My true love (the second one.) No one knows when I met my second beloved Zoe, but around 905, we already had been an item for years. That's when she gave birth to a living son at the end of the year, whom I, clearly stating my intentions, named Constantine. You can see why I just had to marry her in January 906, thus legitimizing little C. Now I had to raise hell till the Patriarch agreed to baptize little C, but he straight out refused to marry me to Zoe, so I fired him and got my own pet priest to marry us. We lived happily and controversially ever after till I died in 912, but I'm sure you want to know what happend to Zoe, because my girl proved to be an Imperial badass.

Alex - remember my half brother Alex, technically my Co-Emperor all this time? - became the senior Emperor upon my death, little C still being a young child. Alex instantly recalled the previously fired Patriarch, and locked up my Zoe in a nunnery. Where she didn't stay long. Alex promptly blundered politically with the Bulgars and the Arabs simultanously and died within the year, in 913. My girl Zoe came back and claimed the regency. Now the Patriarch wanted to be Regent himself, made the Senate swear they'd never recognize her as Empress, and locked her up on a nunnery again. But Zoe did not take this lying down. She organized an overthrow of the Patriarch as Regent within a year, in 914, and made him publically recognize her as Empress and sole Regent in exchange for letting him stay Patriarch, and, you know, alive. That's when he caved, recognized her and, oh yeah, our marriage. Did I have great taste in Zoes or what?

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Agreed that remarrying within a few months even with the pressure of needing an heir was seen as unusual/distateful and always remarked upon.

When you think you're a frog, exceptions are made. ;) (The reason apparently given by historians was that Philip was so uxorious because he had a strong sex drive and was too pious to cheat on his wife, but I'm with Kamen, who understands a thing or two about mental illness and says the guy was dependent on his wives for emotional support. Frederik, and Denmark I guess, are lucky Moltke had such robust health and outlived Frederik (by 26 years)).

It is rather tempting to be touched by reading *all* the letters where Frederik keeps saying he will belong to Moltke until his death/the grave/his last sigh, that only death will separate them, etc., and to realize that he kept his word: he wanted Moltke there for his final operation, and died in his arms. If only dysfunction hadn't accounted for so much of that!

(I have an AU where he gets to abdicate and go be part of the ~~Weasley~~ Moltke family, and somehow that makes things better (via magic :P).)

Did I have great taste in Zoes or what?

You did! I didn't know this story at all, thanks for passing it on. One day I will study Byzantine history, and then I'll have all these lovely write-ups to refresh myself on that will be very helpful.

From:

cahn

Huh, I did not know that about the Eastern church! And I loved your Basil and Leo writeup :D

Now, my least favourite kid Leo was born during those years, and may not have been my kid at all but Michael's, something no one was ever clear on, due to my wife having sex with us both.

Wow!

Zoe Zaoutzaina: My true love. (The first one.)

Heeee!

That's when she gave birth to a living son at the end of the year, whom I, clearly stating my intentions, named Constantine.

Heh. I mean, presumably it could be the other way around, right? That maybe he thought God was punishing him too, but clearly when he actually did get a living son, he would have been like, "....or maybe not!"

She organized an overthrow of the Patriarch as Regent within a year, in 914, and made him publically recognize her as Empress and sole Regent in exchange for letting him stay Patriarch, and, you know, alive. That's when he caved, recognized her and, oh yeah, our marriage.

Okay, that's amazing. Go Zoe!

From:

selenak

And I loved your Basil and Leo writeup

In this case, Michael (III) wants to have a word!

Michael: My Dad died when I was two years old, so yes, I was another child Emperor. My mother Theodora, yes, another one - look, I can't help it if lots of Byzantine Empresses are named after THE Theodora, if they're not called Theophano instead - and the Eunuch Theokistos ruled for me during the first decade plus a few years. Early on, Mom's brother Bardas made a play, but she kicked him out of the regency council; keep your eyes on Uncle Bardas. Anyway, When I was 15, Mom knew the end of the regency was fast approaching, and wanted to marry me off while she still could select my bride. Because she couldn't stand my beloved Eudokia Ingarina. who, yes, was my mistress already. The bride Mom chose for me was also called Eudokia (Dekapolitissa) - I know, I know - , and yeah, couldn't stand her. Teenage me had it with Mom, then, and Uncle Bardas told me the way to a free life was to overthrow her and her Eunuch and install him as Regent. Okay, says I, and he kills Theokistos, kicks Mom out of the palace and becomes my right hand man.

Now, my image after this point was created by my successor who had to justify my demise and his own act and paid historians to present me as a useless drunk, with his historians borrowing entire descriptions of Nero and Mark Antony to describe me, and saddling me with the moniker "The Drunkard". More modern historians, however, have adopted my cause and point out that contemporary Arab and Bulgar chroniclers describe me as an active Emperor instead. Basically, they think I took over Mom's job and Uncle Bardas took over that of Theokistos. He was an A plus general, and while I was with him in the field a few times, I mostly remained in Constantinople. I won't deny I loved visiting the hippodrome and partying, but I'll have you know the Empire kept florishing and recovering from the humilation conga that had been the original Caliphate establishing. It wasn't all due to Uncle Bardas!

So here I am, enjoying the occasional trip the Hippodrome and party and my darling Eudokia Ingarina, when I meet this total hunk from Macedonia, though modern historians think he might have been Armenian instead. Despite all that happened: Basil was ripped, is what I'm saying. Also really charming. We first bonded over horses, and then he became my bff and favourite person and rapidly rose through the ranks. By which I mean that I first made him Master of the Horse, and then when my chamberlain died, I made him Chamberlain instead.

Now, usually the Chamberlains were all eunuchs, for the simple reason that they lived with the Imperial family in their living quarters, and often next to or in the Emperor's bedroom. Their title, literally translated, means "he who sleeps at the side". Basil was the first non-Eunuch in the job since I don't know when, and I could hardly castrate such a fine specimen, could I? I was just happy to have him with me. As to the inevitable question: Basil's historians had a mighty problem later on. On the one hand, they were paid to trash talk me, so of course they insinuated I had an eye for the boys as well as the girls. On the other hand, they couldn't do more than insinuate because the guy I was absolutely closest to was their new boss, and thus they insisted our relationship was completely and utterly straight because he couldn't possibly have a gay thought in his life. You should see their contortions when it comes to how I married Basil to my darling Eudokia Ingarina. Because see, if they said Basil and darling Eudokia did not have sex until I died, they slandered the paternity of Basil's oldest sons. If they said Basil and Eudokia did have sex in our years together, they implied Basil was fine with his wife having sex with me, and it's not far from there to the idea of a threesome, even for monks writing history. Me? I say they were my two favourite people, and I just loved being close to them.

So while this was going on, Uncle Bardas kept sideeying the situation, and said I should name him Caesar, what with me not having a legitimate son. Basil said this meant he had it in for me. Would Basil lie to me? We then did this master plan where I made Uncle Bardas feel save by appointing him Caesar, and then, when he thought he was safe, Basil offed him. Don't look at me like that, Uncle Bardas was the one who had convinced me to kick Mom out and off Theokistos back in the day. Just, next thing you know Basil, who was a few years older than me, says I should adopt him and make him Caesar instead. Historians are divided as to why I did that, what with the Bardas precedent. The older ones think I was just that dumb. The more recent ones have this theory that since I was still married to the other, unloved Eudokia whom I couldn't stand, and my beloved Eudokia now kept giving birth to sons, I had to do something to ensure that those sons would be able to become royal princes and in the long term able to succeed me. Hence the Basil adoption and elevation of him to Caesar. And then there are always those who think Basil was just that sexy.

You can see where this is going, I guess. The exact circumstances of Basil deciding it was time for the ultimate step are controversial again. Later the official story was that I was eyeing another fave and when in my cups told Basil that hey, I could just as easily make him Caesar, and Basil decided it was time to act. But thing is, while everyone assumes this guy got killed as well, no one can agree as to his name. Be that as it may, Basil got me drunk and to bed, as my chamberlain made sure there were no guards posted at my bedchamber, showed up with some thugs and killed me. Gruesomeley. My hands were cut off first and then I got the literal stab in the heart after having already received the proverbial one. I was only 27 years old, and had reigned in name since I was 2. Because I had made Basil Caesar already, he automatically succeeded me and didn't even have to talk the Patriarch into crowning him, what with him already consecrated. And then, as a final indignity, he didn't have me buried with the other imperial bodies but in a minor monastery. This just changed when Leo became Emperor and had me reburied properly.

So was Leo my son? Impossible to know. I mean, you could assume Basil and darling Eudokia Ingerina had no sex and then we'd all have known he and two other brothers of his were my kids, but in that case: how come my darling and I did not have a single baby together in the ten years BEFORE Basil the hunk entered my life? She only started to become pregnant, a lot, once Basil was with us in the imperial bedchamber. (Hi, Gustav!) Mind you, I don't blame Leo if he wanted to think he was my kid rather than Basil's, what with how his own relationship with Basil turned out. Sorry to say that my former hunky bff and killer might have made a competent Emperor, but a lousy dad to Leo. What with him having to be talked out of blinding the kid in favour to disqualify him from the throne. Basil even thought Leo was somehow responsible for his hunting accident, at least that's what he said on his deathbed. Sorry not sorry if that's the case, Basil. I really thought we had something!

Speaking of: no historian ever, and certainly no chronicler in Basil's pay, bothered to find out what my darling Eudoxia Ingarina thought of all of this. Remember, she kept being married to Basil as his Empress and gave birth to some more kids, so clearly they didn't stop having sex. Was she secretly hating every minute? Was she pragmatic and thought, better Empress than mourning my memory in some nunnery? Had she conspired with him, and I really hope that's not the case, seeing as to how we were together since I was a young teen and I would have married her back then if Mom hadn't made me marry the other Eudokia? I shall never know, and neither will you. Cheers!

Edited Date: 2023-02-27 09:04 am (UTC)