cahn | Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 41

Now, thanks to interesting podcasts, including characters from German history as a whole and also Byzantine history! (More on this later.)

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From:

selenak

Re: Umbilical Hernia operation -as I recall Caroline (Frederik's mother-in-law, Queen of England, former FW crush and most importantly mother of Louise, who as this happened in the later 1730s presumably would have been a witness) died of an umbilical hernia which got untreated for years and then got operated on too late. To quote wiki's summary: (M)ore seriously she had suffered an umbilical hernia at the birth of her final child in 1724. On 9 November 1737, she felt an intense pain and, after struggling through a formal reception, took to her bed. Part of her small intestine had poked through the hernia opening. Over the next few days she was bled, purged, and operated on, without anaesthetic, but there was no improvement in her condition.

=> Louise's last days must have been an absolute nightmare, knowing and remembering how things went with her mother, and I just bet Moltke is prettifying everything with her immediate consent at the King's wish and what not.

Moltke gives a bit more detail on the marriage negotiations and says they wanted the English princess Augusta, but she was only 14 and not in great health

So marrying the unbalanced alcoholic to a 14 years old girl is okay if it's not his own daughter: noted. I mean, yes, realpolitik in the era, but Augusta clearly had a lucky escape.

Did we ever determine whether Fredersdorf owned a slave plantation overseas? I know we discussed it, and we found evidence of overseas possessions, but I think we couldn't find the evidence for the specific claims that would imply slavery?

I don't recall exactly, either, the way I remember it is him having shares in a trading company. Now presumably there were overseas trading companies in the era which absolutely did not do any slavery (in addition to all the other stuff they primarily did), but the odds aren't really good in the 18th century.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

died of an umbilical hernia which got untreated for years and then got operated on too late.

What I remember of Caroline's hernia, though, is that it was misdiagnosed: the doctors thought it was a growth, so they cut off the part that was sticking out, instead of trying to put it back inside her. Then she had a hole in her large intestine and died, my guess is, of sepsis.

Not that dying of a correctly diagnosed and treated umbilical hernia would have necessarily been any better! She must have been in terror, as you say: she was about 13 when her mother died, plenty old enough to remember.

I'm sure Moltke is prettifying everything; he's clearly glossing over anything and everything that he doesn't want public knowledge. Like I said, I can't even tell how the operation went. She complies with her husband's wishes like a good wife, the operation "doesn't help as hoped," and she says super nice things to Moltke right before dying. The end.

Moltke's whole memoirs are kind of like the anti-Hervey: "discretion" is his watchword. That makes it all the more interesting when he *doesn't* feel the need to gloss over something, like how codependent he and Frederik are, or Frederik's constant apologizing.

Can you imagine how Hervey would have written about a king wanting to be *his* son-in-law? :P

So marrying the unbalanced alcoholic to a 14 years old girl is okay if it's not his own daughter: noted. I mean, yes, realpolitik in the era, but Augusta clearly had a lucky escape.

She dodged a bullet! *looks up who she married* The Duke of Brunswick, the son of Charlotte and brother of Anna Amalia.

But to be fair, we don't actually know that Moltke *did* object to his 14-yo daughter marrying the unbalanced alcoholic. Busck and I have the same question when he gushes over Frederik, which is: "Are you just covering for him, or are you sitting in a kitchen that's on fire, holding your mug and going 'This is fine!'?"

Let's remember that Moltke was pretty much the only one who thought Frederik *should* get married immediately. Granted, the first marriage worked out okay for Frederik (poor Louise), but it sure didn't fix the problems it was supposed to fix. For all we know, he would have been gung-ho about having Frederik as his daughter's husband if not for all the other numerous problems!

I don't recall exactly, either, the way I remember it is him having shares in a trading company.

No, I distinctly remember discussion of plantations in addition to that. Okay, rereading this thread, we were unable to definitively trace those claims, and the discussion petered out with us all shrugging and concluding we could be wrong.

From:

selenak

Moltke's whole memoirs are kind of like the anti-Hervey: "discretion" is his watchword. That makes it all the more interesting when he *doesn't* feel the need to gloss over something, like how codependent he and Frederik are, or Frederik's constant apologizing.

Can you imagine how Hervey would have written about a king wanting to be *his* son-in-law? :P

ZOMG, I wish I could read this. Mind you, Hervey wanted post mortem pay back, so their entire motivation for writing their respective memoirs in the first place are opposites, too. Now I'm wondering how Hervey would have reacted if either a widowed G2 had proposed after Caroline's death, or Fritz of Wales had decided to make up to him by doing that instead of his actual marriage. Mind you, both possibilities would have needed a daughter of Hervey's being old enough, which I don't think would have been the case, but let's say he does have a 14 years old available, just as Moltke, did. Hm.

Fritz of Wales: this is easy. Hervey doesn't risk it because he has no idea how long it's going to be till Fritz of Wales becomes King, there's always the danger that G2 and Caroline will risk creating a succession problem by assigning Hannover to Fritz of Wales and making William Cumberland the future English monarch like they had wanted so badly in G1's life time, and he knows both of them, who are the power holders for the immediate future, would be PISSED. Let's not forget that Hervey thought he could do a Buckingham and be a favourite for Caroline and Fritz of Wales at the same time, and this really really did not work, and he prioritized Caroline. So if this is in the early 1730s before their fallout, Hervey is flattered but doesn't do it. Or he is paranoid and thinks Fritz of Wales wants to make him look bad in front of Caroline, if this is after their fallout.

G2 proposes after Caroline's death: In this case, Hervey goes for it. Not least because as far as I recall from his biography - the memoirs don't even mention his kids - , he was happy letting his wife take care of the kids in the provinces while he lived and wasn't above using them AW style in that weird testament clause where he wanted another woman to raise them, but didn't show interest in actually interacting with them. Not that unusual for professional courtiers, of course. So I don't think he'd have been concerned for a daughter of his to marry into the Hannover clan. He'd have been aware this would anger most of the other noble families, but at this point, he was feuding with many anyway, so this would have been a feature, not a bug. And for all that the Brits were snobs vis a vis the Hannovers and saw them as noveau riche, let's not forget: never mind the Stuart connection, G2 was a Welf. He was a member of one of the oldest, proudest noble families of Europe who could trace themselves back as nobles to Charlemagne's day, which was more than any of the then current British noble families could say for themselves. And a vengeful Hervey, still not over being dumped by Fritz of Wales, would have hoped that maybe a grandson of his would end up as King of England. So yeah. He absolutely would have accepted that proposal. And then gone on to satirize the Hannovers some more in his memoirs.

ETA: Additional question: If Hervey becomes G2's father-in-law in the late 1730s, does Algarotti remain in London in 1740? I mean, yes, Fritz impressed him, but Hervey is unequestionably into him, and if Hervey is the King's father-in-law, he has both means and position to get Algarotti jobs and riches. I mean, living in Berlin, living in London, in 1740, there aren't many who'd pick Berlin/Potsdam...

Edited Date: 2023-02-21 10:55 am (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

ZOMG, I wish I could read this.

I know, right?! I love your exploration of the possibilities!

He'd have been aware this would anger most of the other noble families, but at this point, he was feuding with many anyway, so this would have been a feature, not a bug.

Ahahahaa, I laughed so hard. It's funny 'cause it's true!

I mean, yes, Fritz impressed him, but Hervey is unequestionably into him, and if Hervey is the King's father-in-law, he has both means and position to get Algarotti jobs and riches. I mean, living in Berlin, living in London, in 1740, there aren't many who'd pick Berlin/Potsdam...

Hmm. The marriage would have had to take place after Algarotti's visit to Fritz in 1739, otherwise I assume he wouldn't have gone traveling in the first place, and thus not have had to make a choice. So if you assume that timing...he might have stayed, yeah! Unless Lady Mary was driving him crazy. :P

I mean, living in Berlin, living in London, in 1740, there aren't many who'd pick Berlin/Potsdam...

Agreed. How long before Algarotti gets tired of whatever job he has in London, though? Even with August the Chill in Saxony, he didn't stay long. I think he was a "grass is greener" personality. Fritz might still have been able to win him over.

(I love the image of him leaving his luggage behind, though. I'm glad it happened that way for sheer entertainment purposes, although of course irl I'm sorry he was in for such a rude shock!)

From:

selenak

he might have stayed, yeah! Unless Lady Mary was driving him crazy. :P

I don't think Lady Mary is still in England! Didn't she leave between the first and the second Algarotti trip to London, in the expectation of reuniting with him in Italy etc.?

How long before Algarotti gets tired of whatever job he has in London, though? Even with August the Chill in Saxony, he didn't stay long. I think he was a "grass is greener" personality. Fritz might still have been able to win him over.

True enough, though I would suggest he'll stay at least until the first Silesian War is over. I mean, it's one thing to go to peace time Prussia, and another to go to war time Prussia knowing the King won't be there. Furtherly given the London attractions, which, hey, include favourite dish Andrew Mitchell, I think it's even more likely Algarotti will wait until the second Silesian War is over, and then he goes to reunite with his glorious Warrior King. Not least because by then, I expect also the following will have happened:

G2 & fictional teenage daughter of Hervey = catastrophe. G2 was seriously in love with Caroline, and neither of his chosen long time mistresses was a teenage girl. He would not have had the patience to try to win her over, and by himself he's a middle aged to old overweight German obsessed with continental geneaology and his long ago short time in the field, neither one a subject of interest to a teenage English aristocrat, who already kept comparing Caroline to his mistress when she was alive (in Caroline's favor) and is bound to say something like "Caroline would have understood!" at the first opportunity. It's the Rebecca situation from hell, only this Maxim was actually in love with his first wife. And yes, I know Philip V. of Spain's wives were at the start teenage girls who could and did manage a depressive unstable royal husband, winning his love to boot, but I dare say those are the exceptions from the rule.

So basically, the marriage is a failure, G2 blames Hervey, because of course he would, Hervey's dreams of a career have gone through the toilet, his mood is terrible, and Algarotti's "getting the hell out of there!" instinct would have been on highest alert.

I love the image of him leaving his luggage behind, though. ,

Oh, me too. And that in rl, Lady Hervey was the one who had to send it after him.

From:

cahn

So basically, the marriage is a failure, G2 blames Hervey, because of course he would, Hervey's dreams of a career have gone through the toilet, his mood is terrible, and Algarotti's "getting the hell out of there!" instinct would have been on highest alert.

I'm glad this didn't happen for the sake of the fictional teenage daughter, but (perhaps because it iddn't happen) I find it wildly entertaining!

From:

mildred_of_midgard

I don't think Lady Mary is still in England! Didn't she leave between the first and the second Algarotti trip to London, in the expectation of reuniting with him in Italy etc.?

Oh, right you are! She left in July. How could I forget?

Do you think she'd have come back if he had a permanent job in England thanks to Hervey, though? At the time she discovered he wasn't in Italy, he was roaming around Europe homeless; if she decided they'd just gotten their messages mixed, she might have gone back home.

Or not! She was honestly better off in Italy far away from him, imo.

Furtherly given the London attractions, which, hey, include favourite dish Andrew Mitchell, I think it's even more likely Algarotti will wait until the second Silesian War is over

Yes, I like your timeline!

And yes, I know Philip V. of Spain's wives were at the start teenage girls who could and did manage a depressive unstable royal husband, winning his love to boot, but I dare say those are the exceptions from the rule.

Agreed, and I think that worked because they were in the specific position that Moltke would later play for Frederik: being 24/7 emotional support while interfacing between the sick king and the nobles. Both of the wives, I believe, and maybe especially Isabella Farnese, had to do what looks like far more 24/7 support (as well as sex) for Philip than Moltke had to do most of the time for Frederik. Frederik seems to have been rather less incapacitated than Philip, who in turn seems to have been less incapacitated than GG. Who, though, came to power at a much older age than Frederik even lived to, so if you compare reign to reign, Frederik got more done; if you compare life to life, GG might have been in a better position to not drink himself to death if he'd inherited at age 20.

Oh, me too. And that in rl, Lady Hervey was the one who had to send it after him.

YES!

From:

cahn

Lol I don't think I can possibly handle Unsent Letters (I only completed my Candy Hearts assignment by the skin of my teeth ) but this makes me want to try!

He'd have been aware this would anger most of the other noble families, but at this point, he was feuding with many anyway, so this would have been a feature, not a bug

LOLOLOL! (But the whole thing is great.)

From:

selenak

I'm not sure whether I can do Unsent Letters, either, but then again just in case I did nominate the Josephus Trilogy characters in addition to 18th Century people, I'll have you know. In case someone wants to write missing Joseph/Justus letters. Or something. (BTW, the only relationship I didn't manage to squeeze in was Berenice of Cilicia & Antonia Caenis, because I nominated Mara with several other women. In case you want to nominate as well, is all I'm saying.

From:

cahn

I wonder if we can talk

skygiants into a Josephus fandom for Yuletide!

...you know what, we should totally nominate and also write a promo post. I bet between the three of us we could get someone else to read it.

From:

selenak

We absolutely should do that for next Yuletide! If both you and

skygiants got your hands on the books, they seem to be available in US libraries and thus for reading.

From:

cahn

Yes! Possibly only at middling-to-large library systems, but seems like they are around!

Amazon also seems to carry them for kindle for an expensive but not totally out-there price.

From: (Anonymous)

She dodged a bullet! *looks up who she married* The Duke of Brunswick, the son of Charlotte and brother of Anna Amalia.

I am sorry to report she dodged a bullet and landed in front of a cannon. Her marriage was spectacularly awful, and produced Caroline of Brunswick (wife of George IV), who bitterly recalled that she couldn't compliment either parent without the other becoming furious, in addition to not being allowed to see any men ever, and getting inadequate teaching and instructions on personal hygiene*. It certainly reads as though they were too busy scoring points off each other to notice their children.

*Well, Caroline just didn't wash. This was probably personal preference.

From:

aella_irene

Aargh, this was me, it logged me out!

From:

cahn

Ahhhhh hi hi!! Excited to see you here providing us with more ~~historical gossip~~ history!

Although that's very sad about Augusta. Gosh, reason #2176 why I wouldn't want to live in the past. Poor Augusta. :(

Yeah, I know quite a few kids who would not wash if their parents did not instruct them to do so :P (As well as at least one teenager who doesn't shower despite both parental and peer pressure, though I suspect some sensory issues at play there.)

ETA: I meant to say, welcome!! and just fyi, as you may have noticed the history posts are tagged "frederick the great" (even though obviously not all the comments are about him) -- once we get to about 300 comments we make a new post, and I don't think everyone is always tracking the old posts (I only do because it's my DW!) -- so, to make sure everyone sees, it is often more efficient to post on the latest post, even if it's about something that happened on an old post. (Although right now everyone is kind of busy, too :) )

Edited Date: 2023-05-01 04:11 am (UTC)