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cahnI'm trying to use my other account at least occasionally so I posted about my Yuletide gifts there, including the salon-relevant 12k fic that features Fritz, Heinrich, Voltaire, Fredersdorf, Saint Germain, Caroline Daum (Fredersdorf's wife), and Groundhog Day tropes! (Don't need to know canon.)
Frat Boys of Versailles: The Actual Quotes
Date: 2023-01-28 03:32 pm (UTC)To start with the last, none of the document quoted in the chapter "Games of Princes" names him, unless he's listed under another name/title, Eugene isn't named as a part of the gang. Sources: The memoirists and letter writers quoted as reporting about the events in question are Primi Visconti, Madame de Sevigné, Bussy-Rabutin, and Sandras de Courtilz.
The story which ended up in Angelique hails from Bussy-Rabutin, but not from his later book "France Galante" but from a letter to his son-in-law La Rivière, dated January 27th 1680:
Recently, when the Duke de La Ferté, Berain, the Chevalier de Colbert and d'Argenson were drunk in B-, they sent for a bakery vendor, whom they wanted to make into their catamite following their taste, as he was a pretty boy. When he defended himself, they dealt him two strokes with their swords. When the King learned of this, he ordered Monsieur Louvois to deal out precisely the kind of verbal abuse to the Duke de La Ferté which such a deed deserves. Monsieur Colbert locked up his son and beat him up infamously.
Bad as this is, I note castration isn't mentioned, nor whether the poor bakery vendor died of the two strokes.
The French refered to m/m as the Italian vice, which actual Italians took offense to, like Primi Visconti, here reporting an unwanted pass by the Marquis de La Vallière, brother of Louis' first maitresse en titre:
One day he guided me to his room, approached me and said: "Monsieur, in Spain the monks do it, in France the elite, and in Italy, everyone... I withdrew and replied, jokingly, that this thought hadn't occured to me, that I was twenty five years old already and had a beard. He replied that Frenchmen of taste neither were bothered by the age nor the beard. In short, it took some effort on my part to escape. The Marquis died not long afterwards, and he died off an illness affecting the anus. This sickness was fairly wide spread in those days.
Lest we think Visconti is just making this up, the book adds a quote from Madame de Sevigné, writing on October 16th to her daughter:
Monsieur de La Vallière has died of I know not what. I always consider it ugly if men have an illness at their backsides.
Then there's the quote I already mentioned to you any a post ago, from the memoirs of Francois Hébert, chaplain at Versailles, who says he talked to Madame de Maintenon about these disgusting habits, and that she should use her influence on the King to make him punish these goings on:
"I have told him already", the lady in question replied to me, and one day, when I pressured him to get rid of these affairs, he answered to me: "Then I would have to start with my brother."
Bussy-Rabutin in France Galante describes the young crowd as fratboys of the worst type:
This youth was so devoted to drink that there wasn't a day at which one didn't hear gossip about their excesses. But no matter which debaucheries they committed, none was as vile as the one they committed in a decent house, where they, after they had treated those of the courtesans whom they liked best in the Italian way, tied one of them by force to the bed posts at her arms and legs, and then, when they inserted a rocket into her at a place which decency forbids me to name, they lit this rocked up without mercy, without being touched by the desperate screams of the unhappy woman. After such a rabid deed they pushed their ruthlessness to the limit, they ran through the streets the entire night, destroyed a lot of lanterns, and still didn't have enough until they arrived at the wooden bridge which leads to the island (presumably the Ile de la Cité), and where they wanted to crown their foolishness or rather blasphemy by tearing out the crucifix standing in the middle. Still not content, they wanted to set it on fire, but this, they didn't manage.
I'd say the treatment of the poor woman was worse than that of the crucifix, but have it your way, memoirist. (Makes you want to start the French Revolution immediately, doesn't it?) Moving over to another memoirist, here's the gang finally getting the bill to their deeds by the King according to the Marquis de Sourches' memoirs:
The start of the month of June 1682 was marked by the banishment of a great number of noble people who were accused of extravagant debauching. The King didn't banish them all at once, but first hte Prince de La Roche-sur-Yon, whom he sent to his uncle at Chantilly. Monsieur le Prince, then the Prince de Turenne and the Marquis de Créquy (son of the Marshal) was ordered to go to Straßburg and join the regiment whose colonel he was.
A few days later, the King banished the Chevalier de Saint-Maure, one of the six noble men whom the King had made part of the Dauphin's entourage, and who were supposed to follow him everywhere; the Chevalier de Mailly, who had been raised together with the Dauphin since childhood; Monsieur de Caillemotte, the son of Monsieur de Ruvigny, the member of Parliament for the Hugenots; Monsieur de Mimeurre, who had grown up as a page in the Dauphin's rooms and was still in his service with a thousand Taler pension; and the Chevalier de Tilladet, cousin of Louvois, who had been colonel of the dragoons and marchéchal de camp. The last one had had the hope to get back into favor just a few days earlier, and now he had to leave like the others. Finally, the King banished the Count de Roucy and the Vidame of Laon, the sons of the Count de La Roye from the House de La Rochefuoucault, one of the Hugenots, but one of the bravest, most honorable and best men of the Kingdom. The Duke de La Rochefoucault used all his cerdit with the King to spare his cousin, whom he loved very much, such a lethal pain. But the King remained merciless. He did give in to the fervent pleas from Monsieur de Grand that the Count de Brionne, his oldeest son, would not be banished like the others, despite being accused of the same offense. But Monsieur Le Grand could not save his brother, the Count de Marsan, who despite not being banished from Court lost any respect the King had for him. A greater number of courtiers were accused as well.
Monsieur le Comte de Vermandois, who was only fourteen or fifteen years old, had participated in these debaucheries. When the King interrogated him using all the authority of a father and a King, he could not remain firm against (the King), and confessed everything, which is how the King learned the names of the participants from him, which led to their banishments. There were some more accused, but on June 10th only these got banished whom I have named.
Footnote to Vermandois: This young prince got banished to Normandy. He died in the following year when with the army in Flanders at age 16 from a fever attack.
So: could Eugene have been among the unnamed "others" who got also accused? Sure. He was still in France at the time. But none of the documents quoted says so, and so if a biography gives this book as a source for Eugene having run with this crowd, it's majorly misleading. Mind you, while the letters quoted have no reason to name him - he's a younger son of a banished noblewoman - , the memoirs, written at a point where he's already a VIP and enemy of France, surely wouldn't have missed out on the opportunity?
Anyway, the chapter then moves on to the Duke of Vendome, who is an illegitimate great grandson of Henri IV, with an example of Louis XIV handwaving the gayness of people not his brother, according to Saint-Simon, who is very upset about his. (His servants and subordinate officers always satisfied his disgusting preferences, were well known for this and were thus flattered by his confidants and anyone who wanted to approach him.) Next, we get a Liselotte quote, who was very upset indeed when her husband wanted to make one of his boyfriends, the Marquis d'Effiat (aka the one whom Saint-Simon names as having poisoned Minette at the Chevalier de Lorraine's orders), into her son Philippe the future Regent's governor:
Monsieur replied to me: "I have to admit the Marquis d'Effiat used to be debauched, and that he loved boys, but he's abstained from this vice for a long time now. "It was just recently," I replied, "that a young and handsome German who was visiting made his excuses to me and told me he couldn't visit as often as he wanted anymore because d'Effiat was molesting him too much whenever he entered the Palais Royale.
The final quote isn't about any debaucheries, gay or het, but the editor telling us with relief that "the Crown Prince at least behaves normal" and quotes the description of Louis' first (legtimate) grandson's birth from the Abbé Choisy. And that's the end of the chapter.
Re: Frat Boys of Versailles: The Actual Quotes
Date: 2023-01-28 04:17 pm (UTC)I need to clear up a misunderstanding, though:
so if a biography gives this book as a source for Eugene having run with this crowd, it's majorly misleading
I didn't find this book in the Eugene biography (which is not big on naming sources), I found it in Wikipedia. In the Liselotte article, as the source for the story you quoted us, which had no mention of Eugene. On that note:
But now to the immediate reason why Mildred got me the book, i.e. the question as to what the contemporaries say re: m/m orgies, with or without violence, and whether or not Eugene was a part of the gang.
That conversation is certainly how I found the book, but the reason I got it for you is just my general belief that any book with a title like "The court of Louis XIV in eyewitness reports" belongs in your hands. A belief with which I'm sure
The French refered to m/m as the Italian vice, which actual Italians took offense to
I laughed!
One day he guided me to his room, approached me and said: "Monsieur, in Spain the monks do it, in France the elite, and in Italy, everyone... I withdrew and replied, jokingly, that this thought hadn't occured to me, that I was twenty five years old already and had a beard. He replied that Frenchmen of taste neither were bothered by the age nor the beard. In short, it took some effort on my part to escape. The Marquis died not long afterwards, and he died off an illness affecting the anus. This sickness was fairly wide spread in those days.
Good lord!
I'd say the treatment of the poor woman was worse than that of the crucifix, but have it your way, memoirist.
You would, and I would, but I think I mentioned that this came up in the Cunegonde's kidnapping book: the author argues that in Catholic/Protestant conflicts, we moderns tend to see the Catholics as more violent, because they attacked humans, and the Protestant tendency to go for desecrating religious symbols doesn't parse to us as especially violent--but to Catholics, violence against symbols was violence against God, and arguably worse than violence against humans. Also, people (not just Catholics) believed that God would punish a whole community for the sins of the few. So desecrating a religious symbol was not just ruining an inanimate object, but an act that was going to bring down the wrath of God on everyone.
Would the woman with the rocket going off in her vagina agree? I hope not! I certainly don't (though I also don't believe in a divinity that's going to be especially offended by a personal attack on his symbols and take it out on innocent me--if I did, who knows what I would think). But there is some historical context for this (bad, wrong) attitude, the memoirist didn't invent it.
I've also seen the argument that that was one reason FW was so big on escalating punishments for things like sodomy: violating God's laws risked bringing down the wrath of God on everyone, including him. Whereas Fritz's attitude toward law was the more humanistic "So, there's this social contract according to which I get to make all the decisions," and thus he could afford to mitigate punishments or even look the other way.
the editor telling us with relief that "the Crown Prince at least behaves normal"
Lol! After reading your excerpts, I can imagine the relief of contemporaries and historians alike!
Re: Frat Boys of Versailles: The Actual Quotes
Date: 2023-01-29 02:46 pm (UTC)I laughed!y
I‘ll also remind you of Harold Acton saying „the Bourbon has intruded“ as an explanation of why the last bunch of Medici were decadent sex maniacs. There‘s nothing like blaming your neighbour for the kind of sex you disapprove of. (See also the Brits calling syphilis „the French sickness“.)
Good point about the symbolic shock value of the frat boys trying to set a crucifix on fire for the faithful in these days. Next question: if they hadn‘t done this but would have still mutilated the poor woman (I note the description doesn‘t say whether or not she survived this, that‘s why I‘m phrasing it thusly), would Louis also have banished them, or would he have let it slide or left it at a stern talking to, as with the case of the bakery vendor.
Lol! After reading your excerpts, I can imagine the relief of contemporaries and historians alike
Sophie of Hannover wasn‘t a fan of his, considering him extremely phlegmatic and boring. (Not least because one of the reasons for the Versailles visit had been to get a match for Sophie Charlotte, and the Dauphin of course would have been an excellent candidate, status wise.) But I bet his father was extremly grateful that at least there was one son where he didn‘t have to fear awful reports from, and that this was the heir of the crown. (Even if he would never rule, but Louis couldn‘t know that.)
Re: Frat Boys of Versailles: The Actual Quotes
Date: 2023-02-01 06:41 am (UTC)[personal profile] cahn, reminder, Colbert was of course Louis' most important minister (trade being his speciality), and Louvois was the minister of war. So these were sons of the elite.
Yes good this is me giving you positive reinforcement that I always need context, omg
The French refered to m/m as the Italian vice, which actual Italians took offense to
Hee, I also laughed!
One day he guided me to his room, approached me and said: "Monsieur, in Spain the monks do it, in France the elite, and in Italy, everyone... I withdrew and replied, jokingly, that this thought hadn't occured to me, that I was twenty five years old already and had a beard. He replied that Frenchmen of taste neither were bothered by the age nor the beard. In short, it took some effort on my part to escape. The Marquis died not long afterwards, and he died off an illness affecting the anus. This sickness was fairly wide spread in those days.
omg!! WELL THEN.
(Makes you want to start the French Revolution immediately, doesn't it?)
Oh oof :( That does indeed :P :(
Next, we get a Liselotte quote, who was very upset indeed when her husband wanted to make one of his boyfriends, the Marquis d'Effiat (aka the one whom Saint-Simon names as having poisoned Minette at the Chevalier de Lorraine's orders), into her son Philippe the future Regent's governor:
Monsieur replied to me: "I have to admit the Marquis d'Effiat used to be debauched, and that he loved boys, but he's abstained from this vice for a long time now. "It was just recently," I replied, "that a young and handsome German who was visiting made his excuses to me and told me he couldn't visit as often as he wanted anymore because d'Effiat was molesting him too much whenever he entered the Palais Royale.
Well, you go Liselotte for always having the good gossip about possible candidates for your son's mentors! Unlike FW :P So... was she successful at not getting him to be her son's governor??
Re: Frat Boys of Versailles: The Actual Quotes
Date: 2023-02-01 08:15 am (UTC)So... was she successful at not getting him to be her son's governor??
The book doesn't say, and googling only tells me that D'Effiat's wife (yes, he had one, though no children) became the governess of her children, plural. (She only had two surviving biological children, Philippe the later Regent and Elisabeth Charlotte the later mother of FS and thus mother-in-law to MT, but there were also Philippe the Gay's two surviving daughters from his marriage to Minette, one of whom would go on to marry Charles II the Genetic Wonder and last Habsburg in Spain.) Maybe that was a compromise? Otoh, I seem to recall from "Madame sein ist ein elendes Handwerk" ("Being Madame is a lousy craft"), the most recent edition of Liselotte's letters which I only have on audio, that she usually lost these kind of arguments with Philippe, because one of the many things that annoved her about the Chevalier de Lorraine was that he had the ultimate say over her household appointments, and he and d'Effiat were allied.
In any event, Philippe the Regent got along well with his father's various boyfriends but was himself seemingly exclusively heterosexual. How do we know? Because Philippe the Regent's orgies were talked about in great gossipy detail, including by a young Voltaire, and you can bet that if he'd done it with a guy or several, it would have been mentioned. Which isn't to say there was no influence. To memoirist Saint-Simon's great distress, for they were friends, Philippe the Regent died long before he had to, as a direct consequence of the hard partying life style he had from his teenage years onwards and which did start in his teenage years. Liselotte in her letters frequently complains of Monsieur condemming her to be thought of as the stern, disciplinarian parent while he's exclusively the fun, permitting everything parent, but that it wasn't good for her son to be allowed everything and gamble, drink and party non stop as a teenager. Unsurprisingly, they frequently clashed at that time, though her grown up son learned to appreciate her in later years, and they were unusually affectionate and close for (almost) royalty .
Incidentally, this quote from Primi Visconti - that I was twenty five years old already and had a beard. He replied that Frenchmen of taste neither were bothered by the age nor the beard - tells you something about Visconti (a straight man) expecting gay men to be only interested in teenage boys and young beardless men in their early 20s, while the Marquis de La Valliere evidently finds men of all ages attractive.
Re: Frat Boys of Versailles: The Actual Quotes
Date: 2023-02-04 02:15 pm (UTC)Remind me if he did this for gayness? Huh, looking through the sodomy article again, it looks like if you were a noble, FW would just lock you up and let you go after a few years. I mean, that is still an excellent reason not to tell him!
His 1725 edict says "if you do it with a cow", and the author says that this is because the vast majority of cases in Brandenburg-Prussia, as opposed to Hamburg, were bestiality and not homosexuality cases.
Okay, yeah, here's a case where the woman who dressed up as a man and married her lover and penetrated her with a dildo was executed by FW's "You're letting her off too easy!" order, while the "seduced" partner was locked up for 3 years.
So, yeah. If you were a noble, you might get locked up for being gay, if you were a member of the lower classes, execution. Though apparently FW went along with the recommended milder punishments for the first 10 or so years of his reign, then decided that wasn't enough of a deterrent and too many people kept doing it, so he started insisting on death for non-nobles.
This remains a really interesting article, I should reread it.
tells you something about Visconti (a straight man) expecting gay men to be only interested in teenage boys and young beardless men in their early 20s, while the Marquis de La Valliere evidently finds men of all ages attractive.
Yeah, that is really interesting. That is definitely a stereotype that persists to this day.
Re: Frat Boys of Versailles: The Actual Quotes
Date: 2023-02-04 03:16 pm (UTC)For female gayness, there's indeed poor Rosenstengel, and for male, I was thinking of the 1730 "sodomite" who did it with both animals and men (or am I misremembering?) according to the pamphlet I found and got burned. Neither was a noble, though.
Re: Frat Boys of Versailles: The Actual Quotes
Date: 2023-02-04 08:24 pm (UTC)I think you are misremembering, at least given your write-up:
But I can tell cahn now that poor Lepsch had a go at the sheep courtesy to the pamphlet you uploaded. Well actually, I don't know which animal(s) he had a go at, but it wasn't humans. The giveaway is "viehische Vermischung" again
Re: Frat Boys of Versailles: The Actual Quotes
Date: 2023-02-05 11:30 am (UTC)Re: Frat Boys of Versailles: The Actual Quotes
Date: 2023-02-05 11:39 am (UTC)Re: Frat Boys of Versailles: The Actual Quotes
Date: 2023-02-05 02:21 pm (UTC)(Selena is our orgy expert: "But Philippe's orgies were well lit!")
I found a good essay on sodomy as a crime in Prussia...whose author...wrote his whole dissertation on the subject, i.e. sodomy as a crime in the 18th century
Damn, I went looking for the dissertation just now, and Google books shows it was made into a book, but I can't find it for sale anywhere, nor even in the Bavarian Stabi. :( Oh well.