cahn

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I'm trying to use my other account at least occasionally so I posted about my Yuletide gifts there, including the salon-relevant 12k fic that features Fritz, Heinrich, Voltaire, Fredersdorf, Saint Germain, Caroline Daum (Fredersdorf's wife), and Groundhog Day tropes! (Don't need to know canon.)

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From:

mildred_of_midgard

Wow, this definitely delivered.

I need to clear up a misunderstanding, though:

so if a biography gives this book as a source for Eugene having run with this crowd, it's majorly misleading

I didn't find this book in the Eugene biography (which is not big on naming sources), I found it in Wikipedia. In the Liselotte article, as the source for the story you quoted us, which had no mention of Eugene. On that note:

But now to the immediate reason why Mildred got me the book, i.e. the question as to what the contemporaries say re: m/m orgies, with or without violence, and whether or not Eugene was a part of the gang.

That conversation is certainly how I found the book, but the reason I got it for you is just my general belief that any book with a title like "The court of Louis XIV in eyewitness reports" belongs in your hands. A belief with which I'm sure

cahn will heartily agree. :)

The French refered to m/m as the Italian vice, which actual Italians took offense to

I laughed!

One day he guided me to his room, approached me and said: "Monsieur, in Spain the monks do it, in France the elite, and in Italy, everyone... I withdrew and replied, jokingly, that this thought hadn't occured to me, that I was twenty five years old already and had a beard. He replied that Frenchmen of taste neither were bothered by the age nor the beard. In short, it took some effort on my part to escape. The Marquis died not long afterwards, and he died off an illness affecting the anus. This sickness was fairly wide spread in those days.

Good lord!

I'd say the treatment of the poor woman was worse than that of the crucifix, but have it your way, memoirist.

You would, and I would, but I think I mentioned that this came up in the Cunegonde's kidnapping book: the author argues that in Catholic/Protestant conflicts, we moderns tend to see the Catholics as more violent, because they attacked humans, and the Protestant tendency to go for desecrating religious symbols doesn't parse to us as especially violent--but to Catholics, violence against symbols was violence against God, and arguably worse than violence against humans. Also, people (not just Catholics) believed that God would punish a whole community for the sins of the few. So desecrating a religious symbol was not just ruining an inanimate object, but an act that was going to bring down the wrath of God on everyone.

Would the woman with the rocket going off in her vagina agree? I hope not! I certainly don't (though I also don't believe in a divinity that's going to be especially offended by a personal attack on his symbols and take it out on innocent me--if I did, who knows what I would think). But there is some historical context for this (bad, wrong) attitude, the memoirist didn't invent it.

I've also seen the argument that that was one reason FW was so big on escalating punishments for things like sodomy: violating God's laws risked bringing down the wrath of God on everyone, including him. Whereas Fritz's attitude toward law was the more humanistic "So, there's this social contract according to which I get to make all the decisions," and thus he could afford to mitigate punishments or even look the other way.

the editor telling us with relief that "the Crown Prince at least behaves normal"

Lol! After reading your excerpts, I can imagine the relief of contemporaries and historians alike!

From:

selenak

The French refered to m/m as the Italian vice, which actual Italians took offense to

I laughed!y

I‘ll also remind you of Harold Acton saying „the Bourbon has intruded“ as an explanation of why the last bunch of Medici were decadent sex maniacs. There‘s nothing like blaming your neighbour for the kind of sex you disapprove of. (See also the Brits calling syphilis „the French sickness“.)

Good point about the symbolic shock value of the frat boys trying to set a crucifix on fire for the faithful in these days. Next question: if they hadn‘t done this but would have still mutilated the poor woman (I note the description doesn‘t say whether or not she survived this, that‘s why I‘m phrasing it thusly), would Louis also have banished them, or would he have let it slide or left it at a stern talking to, as with the case of the bakery vendor.

Lol! After reading your excerpts, I can imagine the relief of contemporaries and historians alike

Sophie of Hannover wasn‘t a fan of his, considering him extremely phlegmatic and boring. (Not least because one of the reasons for the Versailles visit had been to get a match for Sophie Charlotte, and the Dauphin of course would have been an excellent candidate, status wise.) But I bet his father was extremly grateful that at least there was one son where he didn‘t have to fear awful reports from, and that this was the heir of the crown. (Even if he would never rule, but Louis couldn‘t know that.)