cahn | Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 39

Last post, along with the usual 18th-century suspects, included the Ottonians; changing ideas of conception and women's sexual pleasure; Isabella of Parma (the one who fell in love, and vice versa, with her husband's sister); Henry IV and Bertha (and Henry's second wife divorcing him for "unspeakable sexual acts"). (Okay, Isabella of Parma was 18th century.)

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From:

felis

Kind of interesting that Manteuffel in particular is so optimistic about EC, given that not only was he the one to report tears in Fritz' eyes during the wedding, we also know, via Seckendorff Jr, that he had some further insight. I'm wondering if this is a result of less access, but then again, if Wartensleben was his source all the way through, it can't have been that. I do remember reading some other 1740 envoy reports that had speculation re: Fritz immediately divorcing her, so it's not like those rumours weren't around.

Manteuffel says the one exception to the general mood of disillusionment among the Rheinsberg crowd was Wartensleben

Definitely interesting re: Wartensleben. Though he's more of a military man than the others, too, isn't he, and less notable for any artistic or literary knowledge?

Troeger also thinks all the emo in the letters from Crown Prince Fritz to Keyserlingk may sound "a bit strange" to us modern folk

Oh, no, here I though we'd get another second hand source with at least some tidbits from the letters, but no, it's just what König already told us. Too bad. :(

apparently speculation that Fritz might make a secret trip to France was making the rounds in Berlin in the weeks before

Yeah, I seem to remember the same from the two guys who were reporting back to Quedlinburg in 1740 (who had the early Peter mentions as well).

Manteuffel reports to Brühl resignedly no one can be sure what the hell is going on.

... I have to admit, I'm always quietly delighted when Manteuffel is stumped re: Fritz. :P Probably because like Fritz, I'm not a fan of the way he kept patting himself on the back for all the great, wonderful influence he had on Fritz in 1736. :PPP

one of Manteuffel's verified sources at Rheinsberg was the cook, Duval

Interesting! And definitely new to me, too.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

From:

selenak

... I have to admit, I'm always quietly delighted when Manteuffel is stumped re: Fritz. :P Probably because like Fritz, I'm not a fan of the way he kept patting himself on the back for all the great, wonderful influence he had on Fritz in 1736. :PPP

...Whereas yours truly must admit I do have a soft spot for Manteuffel. I mean, obviously he deserved getting dumped by Fritz. But I do think the reason why he tried to get into a mentor position in the first place is a bit more complicated than ego (and politics). While I don't see Manteuffel's two life long red threads - a political career and genuine passion for sciences and philosophy - as so contradictory as Troeger does, he didn't have a chance to combine the two until the mid 1730s. And we do know from the letter outburst a younger Manteuffel wrote after Patkul's gruesome execution about how Kings and Princes are a rotten lot that he didn't have a high opinion of royalty in general which, if one looks at the monarchs he had personal interactions with, one can understand. So Fritz at that point must have looked not just like a possible rare exception but like a Godsend in that he could combine his political and philosophical side and engineer a golden age by mentoring an actual good prince. He was old enough to be interested in leaving a legacy and aware he wouldn't have another opportunity like that ever again. Of course it takes some considerable ego to fancy yourself as the ideal mentor for a future monarch - which more modest people like Suhm and Duhan did not have and thus actually got the jobs, to a degree - , but it wasn't without basis, if you consider that some of the people he did actually mentor thought and spoke well of him decades after he was dead (i.e. with nothing to gain by saying anything nice about some early 18th century envoy most of their present day society surely didn't know had existed anymore), and these were so very different from each other as the Gottscheds, Formey, Deschamps and Melchior Grimm (i.e. foreign royalty's and Leopold Mozart's go to for culture guy in Paris who was one of the Leipzig students mentored by Manteuffel in the last decade of his life and the one to hold the laudatory speech about him when Manteuffel celebrated his 50th years university degree anniversary. (I.e. Manteuffel must have both had an actual talent to play mentor and enjoyed doing it, whether nor not the mentee was rich or poor, as long as they were promising.)

....Basically, I think consciously or subconsciously, he must have decided to use all those skills, the political and the educational ones, which in the former case he'd mostly had only had the chance to use for mediocraties, and help create an actual good monarch that way, both because the world would benefit and because it would be a great personal legacy. (I.e. altruism and ego both.) Which didn't work. Now Falstaff, he decidedly was not, he had a thick skin and a nice comfortable last few years in Leipzig doing things he enjoyed doing, so I don't feel sorry for him. But I also understand why in 1740, he was frustrated about what might have been.

From:

felis

Yeah, that's fair. I mean, I don't doubt that he had a genuine interest in Fritz being a good and moral king, and good reasons for it, too. I'm not sure he ever actually liked him, though, more like saw him as a means to an end. Also, no Fritz/Voltaire if he had his way. ;)

From:

selenak

Well, we can't have that! Fritz/Voltaire forever!

Maupertuis: I could live without Fritz/Voltaire.
Marquis d'Argens: So say we all.
Madame Denis: No kidding.
Fredersdorf: Je ne parle pas le Francais.

Wilhelmine: Brother Voltaire has a Hohenzollern soul in an Arouet body, I just know it.

From:

cahn

ahahahaha!

Emilie: Count me into this group, too!

(I still have the headcanon that Fredersdorf had no trouble with Fritz/Voltaire until about five minutes into Voltaire's visit...)

From:

cahn

Aw, thanks for this - I can see how he might have thought it was a chance to do something really great. And frustrating when it definitely didn't work out.