![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cahnLast post, along with the usual 18th-century suspects, included the Ottonians; changing ideas of conception and women's sexual pleasure; Isabella of Parma (the one who fell in love, and vice versa, with her husband's sister); Henry IV and Bertha (and Henry's second wife divorcing him for "unspeakable sexual acts"). (Okay, Isabella of Parma was 18th century.)
Re: Fritzian Dawn according to Le Diable
Date: 2022-12-03 09:50 pm (UTC)Hahaha, the exact opposite of Bronisch and his "Sir Not Appearing in My Books Suhm", then!
On the other hand, the same Manteuffel keeps using extremely shady political means
I mean, this is not a paradox, plenty of people are genuinely interested in the sciences and philosophy but are shady on the political side *cough* Fritz, but it's a common misconception. Sigh.
Manteuffel wasn't able to put the Wolffian morality into his own life - might be why Fritz dumped him. (To which I say, rubbish. We're talking about Fritz the Voltaire addict here. Now dumping Manteuffel for not wanting to be manipulated, otoh, and for the security risk he was, absolutely.)
??!! I am with you, Selena, there's no way that's why Fritz dumped him. Self-preservation reasons, one hundred percent.
"My dear Keyserlingk! You are an awfully nice man, you have much wit and education, you sing and joke most charmingly, and you're an honest fellow, but your advice is that of a fool."
I did know this quote, from MacDonogh! But I had forgotten who it was aimed at.
I mean. Nothing about what I've heard about Keyserlingk makes me think he was going to be great at politics. But yeah, Fritz can be brutal.
Also, checking MacDonogh, he actually makes the Falstaff comparison:
As for his Falstaff, Keyserlingk, it was not quite 'I know thee not, old man', but high office was not to be within his grasp. He was made adjutant-general, and he had to stomach the snub: 'You are a very nice man, you have plenty of wit, you are extremely well-red and you sing and joke wonderfully, but your advice is that of a fool.
"the King was very suspicious and very jealous of his own authority, he was always suspecting that people were trying to manipulate him".
(I wonder why, ahem.)
Uh, yeah. Maybe having to do with all the manipulation everyone is trying on him?
This is less a violation of trust than you might think in that letters of that era, especially by VIPs, were written in the expectation of being shown around, unless really specified differently.
Yep, and recipients even read VIP letters aloud at salons.
Carnitz: I did not know this episode at all, neat.
Manteuffel says the one exception to the general mood of disillusionment among the Rheinsberg crowd was Wartensleben, who was smart enough to speak only when spoken to and not make any demands and thus keeps having Fritz' respect. This is further fodder for my speculation Wartensleben was Manteuffel's source for the Straßburg trip.
Ah, yes, that's an interesting bit of Wartensleben characterization! And I agree, if he was in Manteuffel's pay, it would make sense for him to keep his head down and not make waves, keep collecting information and staying on Fritz's good side.
Manteuffel reports to Brühl resignedly no one can be sure what the hell is going on.
Haha! That reminds me of Fleury's WTF letter when Fritz invades Silesia: "The character of the king of Prussia appears to me so extraordinary and so indecipherable that I can not divine either what he wishes to do or what he thinks...an impenetrable enigma for us and I can only inform you of my conjectures..."
Keep 'em guessing, Fritz!
Lastly: I'm not sure whether or not we knew this before, but: one of Manteuffel's verified sources at Rheinsberg was the cook, Duval.
I don't think we did!
A couple of supplements from the first couple pages of the Fidamire write-up, which is as far as I've gotten with my slow French practice:
* Manteuffel is indeed overly optimistic about Fritz/EC.
* His character did not begin to develop until after the disgrace that befell him in 1730.
Me: You're not wrong, but oof.
* Fritz, in the early 1730s, read as much as he could get his hands on, but with no rhyme or reason and with no way of telling the good from the bad, because FW was keeping him away from anyone who might have given him a good education, so the result was that Fritz knew a lot but drew all the wrong conclusions, to the point where his ideas, "as the proverb says, resembled a backwards library ("une bibliothèque renversée"), of the sort where one could say of him that in one sense he knew everything; in another sense, he knew nothing."
Along those same lines, Fritz had all these amazing talents, but, "I perceived, however, that Fidamire, for lack of principles, was generally mistaken in the employment of all these great talents, and that he was ignorant of the means of making just use of them."
Which reminds me of Valori's later famous quote, "It is not possible to have more esprit, but it is certainly possible to put it to a better use."
* Fortunately, says Manteuffel, Fritz was on the lookout for older and wiser
sugar daddieserasteshonest people ("honnêtes gens") to guide him on the path of putting his intellect to a better use, and one of the people he chose to take into his confidence was Manteuffel!This consideration led me to study well the mood and the natural character of Fidamire, to adapt to it the advice that I had to insinuate to him on the means of giving more order and accuracy to his opinions and those to correct his false prejudices, but above all to inspire him with sounder ideas of his duties towards the supreme being and towards the rest of men. My efforts were not fruitless: Fidamire liked and followed my advice.
* So Manteuffel translated all this stuff for him into French and wrote him good advice, and "In a word, my correspondence with Fidamire is worth a course in ethics and philosophy."
But! Then the Old Dessauer was alarmed that Fritz was adopting principles contrary to those he had always tried to instill in Fritz, so he convinced FW that Fritz was being led astray from the true warrior path to one of the pedantry that FW so despised, and he convinced Fritz that it didn't look good for someone his age to act like a schoolboy. So Fritz broke with me, and did so with such bad grace that I will bring it up when I get to the part where I talk about his bad traits ("his left side", literally).
Now, as we know, Manteuffel never ended up writing the bad side, because Fritz came to power and then everyone got to see it firsthand. :P
* But! Why do I recount this episode that we already knew from your previous Manteuffel write-ups? Because of Manteuffel's code name for the Old Dessauer.
Prince Moustache, or just "Moustache." I kid you not.
Here is his portrait. I see where they got the nickname!
And on that note, I will try to read more at some point, because it is *clearly* worth it. Thank you for the write-up, Selena!
Re: Fritzian Dawn according to Le Diable
Date: 2022-12-04 05:19 am (UTC)Re: Fritzian Dawn according to Le Diable
Date: 2022-12-04 08:08 am (UTC)Me: His code name was "Prince Moustache", or just "Moustache." This is his portrait.
Her: *looks* Okay, yeah, that checks out. Who is he?
Me: Frederick's father's BFF.
Her: He had friends??*
Me: Well, the one. And he's known to history as a different name that won't mean anything to you, but from now on, if I refer to him when talking to you, I'm totally calling him Prince Moustache so you know who I'm talking about.)
* My wife: has been paying attention, I see! :'D
Re: Fritzian Dawn according to Le Diable
Date: 2022-12-04 01:30 pm (UTC)Fassmann: I can confirm that. All hail the glorious King!
Guy-Dickens: And yet somehow you chose to admire him from a distance. After finding out he wanted you to wear the same fool's get up he made Gundling wear.
Fassmann: True friendship works best from afar. Especially when a Hohenzollern is involved.
Algarotti: I'm not disagreeing.
More seriously, I do think Prince Moustache has the claim of being undisputedly the best friend FW ever had, and given he has the dubious honour of inventing the Prussian Drill, which depending on your pov was great or terrible for Prussia, married the commnoner he loved despite being of the highest nobility and had a burgher style family life, and thought his sons didn't need any book learning, they certainly were twin souls.
Re: Fritzian Dawn according to Le Diable
Date: 2022-12-18 10:28 pm (UTC)Algarotti: I'm not disagreeing.
Voltaire: ...same.
Re: Fritzian Dawn according to Le Diable
Date: 2022-12-04 03:22 pm (UTC)Indeed, Troeger is definitely a fan. Though he also admits later on that Suhm's assurance that "Fritz has completely outgrown the habit of making fun of other people" was mistaken, and that Valory's character portrait from the same year was thus more on the money.
I mean. Nothing about what I've heard about Keyserlingk makes me think he was going to be great at politics. But yeah, Fritz can be brutal.
*nods* Agreed on both counts. I mean, Keyserlingk doesn't seem to have been crushed by this realisation he wasn't to worry his pretty little head about politics, but I could see others minding, the more the younger and therefore imprinted by FW's Prussia, the idea of public service and the military as the only worthy masculine career they were. It does underline, again, what an exception among the boyfriends Fredersdorf was, who was expected to work politically was well as personally (what's a spy service if not political?), but there the immense social gap and the fact Fredersdorf's entire career was Fritz dependent might have helped with the psychological reassurance. The mere fact that everyone initially thought Keyserlingk would be the great favourite - he's of the nobility, and Fritz is so openly affectionate, of course they would - would have added to the Fritzian motivation to make it clear that no, there will be no politics, and his advice is not asked for.
...this is how I think Katte would have fared had he lived, I dimly recall we talked about this already back in the day, and then the question is, how much of the Prussian cool-aid did he drink, i.e. would he have minded or would he have been cool with it a la Keyserlingk - and would he have been cool with Fredersdorf being treated differently, as Keyserlingk evidently was? I.e. König is under the impression that Keyserlingk and Fredersdorf are getting on very well. When Keyserlingk is sick on 17th June and König visits him, he encounters both Fredersdorf who has been sent by Fritz to ask how Keyserlingk is doing and to admonish him to rest and be a good patient. (This from Fritz via Fredersdorf is pretty... something, given their own behavior vis a vis doctors.) Also, when after Keyserlingk's death Fredersdorf writes to Fritz about visiting the widow and little Adelaide and he describes the baby being a little chatterbox ("like the original") already, it does sound like he liked the later Keyserlingk. But would such harmony also have existed between him and a surviving Katte?
Oh, and I forgot, I wanted to share this anecdote:
There was talk, as Hofrat König reports, that Friedrich seemed to have forgotten the promise which he made to his goaler Captain Graurock, and thus did reward badly the many facilitations which the later while putting himself in danger provided him with. And Wilhelm of Rohwedell, who once provided the Crown Prince with help in the creation of the "Report of the Ruppin Administration", supposedly declared he'd rather quit than serve an ungrateful prince any longer. Naturally it's not worth bothering with proving that the King exercised the virtue of gratitude in rich measure, and that he never forgot anyone who did have a justified claim to his gratitude. Besides König even explicitly adds that he received the reassurance from Fredersdorf's own lips that Friedrich did remember the service of Graurock and would take care of him.
1.) Who the hell is "Captain Graurock" (Hauptmann Graurock)? I don't remember him. Or could this be an envoy speak pseudonym, a la Prince Moustache? (Graurock = Grey Suit.)
2.) Troeger is one insulted fanboy at any criticism of his hero.
Re: Fritzian Dawn according to Le Diable
Date: 2022-12-04 07:21 pm (UTC)Re: Fritzian Dawn according to Le Diable
Date: 2022-12-04 07:29 pm (UTC)What I conclude from this was that Fritz had outgrown the habit of making fun of *Suhm*. :P
Valori had the advantage of having seen Fritz in person in the last year; Suhm's information was 4 years old by 1740 and partially relying on hearsay.
Keyserlingk doesn't seem to have been crushed by this realisation he wasn't to worry his pretty little head about politics, but I could see others minding
Yes, and even so, the delivery might have stung for Keyserlingk.
Btw, another example from MacDonogh:
Even his Rheinsberg friend Chasot was dismissed with a flea in his ear when he donned a ring with Frederick's portrait on it, without first asking permission.
this is how I think Katte would have fared had he lived
Yeah, we did. My fanon for an unposted AU was that he got some literary/artistic job, like Algarotti and Duhan, but no politics.
But would such harmony also have existed between him and a surviving Katte?
An excellent question! I really have no idea.
Who the hell is "Captain Graurock" (Hauptmann Graurock)? I don't remember him. Or could this be an envoy speak pseudonym, a la Prince Moustache? (Graurock = Grey Suit.)
Graurock is mentioned in Lepel's report to FW as one of the people who announced Katte's upcoming execution to Fritz at 5 am on November 6. So that was definitely his real name.
Ah, I see
Re: Fritzian Dawn according to Le Diable
Date: 2022-12-04 08:49 pm (UTC)Huh, interesting. König didn't mention that bit, but that means he was definitely one of the soldiers at Küstrin. Now the question remains if the candle story was exaggeration or actually true.
Re: Fritzian Dawn according to Le Diable
Date: 2022-12-05 02:18 am (UTC)There's also Manger's story that it was Knobelsdorff, which I suspect is the same as Fouquet: a great anecdote gets transferred from a nobody to a famous person. Lehndorff reports the story but doesn't give a name, which would make sense if it was Graurock, not so much if it was someone Lehndorff had heard of, which he would have with Knobelsdorff or Fouquet.
The 1788 volume (which is in French) is mostly a bunch of correspondence between Fritz and Fouquet, which the editor says fell into the hands of the Austrians when Fouquet was captured, and thus has been preserved. The summary of his life (which is where the candle story comes from) is made up of a mixture of firsthand and secondhand stories, as the author only knew him later in life. So there's a very good chance that this was made up.
Browsing through the first few pages, I'm amused by the story of the early years of Fouquet's life. He became a page to the Old Dessauer at age 8. When he was 17, and the siege of Stralsund began, he was supposed to stay home with Mrs. Old Dessauer. But he so badly wanted to go to war that he decided to sneak off as a simple soldier. This display of valor, of course, pleased the Old Dessauer, and explains why FW let him go visit Fritz in Küstrin (after the reconciliation, I think).
But Fouquet also had a lifelong interest in the belles-lettres, which is how he got on Fritz's good side.
Remember that Stralsund was the place where FW met Duhan and was so impressed by his valor that he decided he couldn't possibly be a French-loving aesthete too.
FW: A+ judge of character, as always.
Re: Fritzian Dawn according to Le Diable
Date: 2022-12-05 07:27 am (UTC)To be fair: this would have been academic if anyone had reported Graurock to FW, and Graurock must have known that. So whatever his original motivation, and I'd say it was probably two thirds pity, one third awareness this WAS the future King, he did take a great risk.
Re: Fritzian Dawn according to Le Diable
Date: 2022-12-05 09:28 am (UTC)I can hardly take much credit! It's another beautiful case of alchemy, with you reading Troeger and Lehndorff, and Felis reading Volz and both of you reading Manger, and me knowing my Katte execution. :D (ETA: And researching the Fouquet side, I suppose, both when betaing a Cahn fic and just now.)
Lehndorff would have noted if he'd heard the story either naming Knobelsdorff or Fouqet, but not with Graurock
Again, no credit to me, I'm just quoting past!you. :D And when Lehnedorff visits Küstrin in the 1750s and hears the story of the soldier with the cancle, it's just an anonymous soldier. At this point, Knobelsdorff was already famous and of Europe wide renown, and Lehndorff most definitely knew who he was, so if it had been him, he'd probably have noticed!
Ditto Fouquet, I say.
I must say, I always tended to think the candle story was apocryphal, full stop,
See, I always believed it, until we started turning up sources like Lehndorff hearing rumors and Fouquet's grandson in the nineteenth century, and then I reluctantly started to believe it was apocryphal.
but if König reports it in 1740, naming Graurock, who was demonstrably in Küstrin at the relevant time, then this is another matter.
But this, yes, exactly! That was some excellent alchemy with Felis knowing the candle story and me knowing/finding the Lepel report.
It's not solid evidence, but I'm inclined to believe Graurock did in fact let Fritz have a candle, even if not in that exact loophole-y fashion. Plus, the Lepel report confirms not only that Graurock was stationed at Küstrin at the time, but that he was assigned to go into Fritz's room and carry out orders, which makes it even more plausible that he would have been the one extinguishing candles.
Graurock himself must have voiced his complaints about not being rewarded pretty quickly, since this was summer 1740, with FW only dead since the last day of May. This probably contributed to general Fritzian cynicism about humanity
Ooh, that is a good point, I hadn't made that connection. :/
So whatever his original motivation, and I'd say it was probably two thirds pity, one third awareness this WAS the future King, he did take a great risk.
You know...if Fritz had to be woken up at 5 am to learn about his boyfriend's impending execution, I'm glad that at least one of the parties breaking the news was someone who was somewhat sympathetic to him and tried to alleviate the prison conditions.
But I can see Fritz resenting Graurock seeing him at his most vulnerable nonetheless. :( Especially if he then started complaining about money.
Re: Fritzian Dawn according to Le Diable
Date: 2022-12-18 10:32 pm (UTC)Re: Fritzian Dawn according to Le Diable
Date: 2022-12-04 08:56 pm (UTC)Now that's the first I hear about Old Dessauer being involved in this. I'm wondering how much of that is conjecture and how much of it is true, because I certainly can't see Fritz being all that open to anything Old Dessauer has to say on the topic of ethics and principles and learning.
And thanks for the heads-up! Not sure I'm up for the French right now, though.
Re: Fritzian Dawn according to Le Diable
Date: 2022-12-05 12:15 am (UTC)Formey in his write up of Manteuffel says Old Dessauer (who disliked him of old) scored a point with Fritz by saying how ridiculous it looked for a prince at Fritz' age to still need a teacher to guide him.
Re what Old Dessauer said, I imagine that it was OD + FW shoving "all military, all the time" down Fritz's throat, and Fritz paying lip service to their faces while sneaking around behind their backs (which FW knew full well).
It might be conjecture, or blame-shifting. I'm sure Manteuffel wants an evil advisor to point the finger at. Obviously Fritz didn't fall out with him because of anything *he* did! But there might have been intrigues as well.
Re: Fritzian Dawn according to Le Diable
Date: 2022-12-05 07:37 am (UTC)It might be worth (but also a headache, because the font was awful there as well) to look into that early Seckendorff biography again, because the Seckendorff biographer kept going on about how Prince Moustache was THE WORST and always feuding with the valiant subject of said biography, so he might have picked up such a story as well.
Re: Fritzian Dawn according to Le Diable
Date: 2022-12-05 01:20 pm (UTC)