cahn | Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 39

Last post, along with the usual 18th-century suspects, included the Ottonians; changing ideas of conception and women's sexual pleasure; Isabella of Parma (the one who fell in love, and vice versa, with her husband's sister); Henry IV and Bertha (and Henry's second wife divorcing him for "unspeakable sexual acts"). (Okay, Isabella of Parma was 18th century.)

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From:

selenak

Hahaha, the exact opposite of Bronisch and his "Sir Not Appearing in My Books Suhm", then!

Indeed, Troeger is definitely a fan. Though he also admits later on that Suhm's assurance that "Fritz has completely outgrown the habit of making fun of other people" was mistaken, and that Valory's character portrait from the same year was thus more on the money.

I mean. Nothing about what I've heard about Keyserlingk makes me think he was going to be great at politics. But yeah, Fritz can be brutal.

*nods* Agreed on both counts. I mean, Keyserlingk doesn't seem to have been crushed by this realisation he wasn't to worry his pretty little head about politics, but I could see others minding, the more the younger and therefore imprinted by FW's Prussia, the idea of public service and the military as the only worthy masculine career they were. It does underline, again, what an exception among the boyfriends Fredersdorf was, who was expected to work politically was well as personally (what's a spy service if not political?), but there the immense social gap and the fact Fredersdorf's entire career was Fritz dependent might have helped with the psychological reassurance. The mere fact that everyone initially thought Keyserlingk would be the great favourite - he's of the nobility, and Fritz is so openly affectionate, of course they would - would have added to the Fritzian motivation to make it clear that no, there will be no politics, and his advice is not asked for.

...this is how I think Katte would have fared had he lived, I dimly recall we talked about this already back in the day, and then the question is, how much of the Prussian cool-aid did he drink, i.e. would he have minded or would he have been cool with it a la Keyserlingk - and would he have been cool with Fredersdorf being treated differently, as Keyserlingk evidently was? I.e. König is under the impression that Keyserlingk and Fredersdorf are getting on very well. When Keyserlingk is sick on 17th June and König visits him, he encounters both Fredersdorf who has been sent by Fritz to ask how Keyserlingk is doing and to admonish him to rest and be a good patient. (This from Fritz via Fredersdorf is pretty... something, given their own behavior vis a vis doctors.) Also, when after Keyserlingk's death Fredersdorf writes to Fritz about visiting the widow and little Adelaide and he describes the baby being a little chatterbox ("like the original") already, it does sound like he liked the later Keyserlingk. But would such harmony also have existed between him and a surviving Katte?

Oh, and I forgot, I wanted to share this anecdote:

There was talk, as Hofrat König reports, that Friedrich seemed to have forgotten the promise which he made to his goaler Captain Graurock, and thus did reward badly the many facilitations which the later while putting himself in danger provided him with. And Wilhelm of Rohwedell, who once provided the Crown Prince with help in the creation of the "Report of the Ruppin Administration", supposedly declared he'd rather quit than serve an ungrateful prince any longer. Naturally it's not worth bothering with proving that the King exercised the virtue of gratitude in rich measure, and that he never forgot anyone who did have a justified claim to his gratitude. Besides König even explicitly adds that he received the reassurance from Fredersdorf's own lips that Friedrich did remember the service of Graurock and would take care of him.

1.) Who the hell is "Captain Graurock" (Hauptmann Graurock)? I don't remember him. Or could this be an envoy speak pseudonym, a la Prince Moustache? (Graurock = Grey Suit.)

2.) Troeger is one insulted fanboy at any criticism of his hero.

From:

felis

Quick drive-by comment to answer your Graurock question: this is another version of the Küstrin candle story, see the König report in Volz' Spiegel, Bd. 1, S. 108. Footnotes say full name was Captain Gottfried von Graurock, but also point out that there's another version of that story with Fouquet doing the candle lighting.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Though he also admits later on that Suhm's assurance that "Fritz has completely outgrown the habit of making fun of other people" was mistaken

What I conclude from this was that Fritz had outgrown the habit of making fun of *Suhm*. :P

Valori had the advantage of having seen Fritz in person in the last year; Suhm's information was 4 years old by 1740 and partially relying on hearsay.

Keyserlingk doesn't seem to have been crushed by this realisation he wasn't to worry his pretty little head about politics, but I could see others minding

Yes, and even so, the delivery might have stung for Keyserlingk.

Btw, another example from MacDonogh:

Even his Rheinsberg friend Chasot was dismissed with a flea in his ear when he donned a ring with Frederick's portrait on it, without first asking permission.

this is how I think Katte would have fared had he lived

Yeah, we did. My fanon for an unposted AU was that he got some literary/artistic job, like Algarotti and Duhan, but no politics.

But would such harmony also have existed between him and a surviving Katte?

An excellent question! I really have no idea.

Who the hell is "Captain Graurock" (Hauptmann Graurock)? I don't remember him. Or could this be an envoy speak pseudonym, a la Prince Moustache? (Graurock = Grey Suit.)

Graurock is mentioned in Lepel's report to FW as one of the people who announced Katte's upcoming execution to Fritz at 5 am on November 6. So that was definitely his real name.

Ah, I see

felis found another mention of him while I was writing this!

From:

felis

Graurock is mentioned in Lepel's report to FW as one of the people who announced Katte's upcoming execution

Huh, interesting. König didn't mention that bit, but that means he was definitely one of the soldiers at Küstrin. Now the question remains if the candle story was exaggeration or actually true.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Huh. I thought the Fouquet story came from his grandson in the 19th century, but Volz's footnote points to a 1788 memoir. Still, given that Graurock was around during the worst of the Küstrin days (well, we know he was around for the literal worst!), and Fouquet only briefly after things had gotten better, and given that Fouquet was more famous, I find Graurock way more plausible.

There's also Manger's story that it was Knobelsdorff, which I suspect is the same as Fouquet: a great anecdote gets transferred from a nobody to a famous person. Lehndorff reports the story but doesn't give a name, which would make sense if it was Graurock, not so much if it was someone Lehndorff had heard of, which he would have with Knobelsdorff or Fouquet.

The 1788 volume (which is in French) is mostly a bunch of correspondence between Fritz and Fouquet, which the editor says fell into the hands of the Austrians when Fouquet was captured, and thus has been preserved. The summary of his life (which is where the candle story comes from) is made up of a mixture of firsthand and secondhand stories, as the author only knew him later in life. So there's a very good chance that this was made up.

Browsing through the first few pages, I'm amused by the story of the early years of Fouquet's life. He became a page to the Old Dessauer at age 8. When he was 17, and the siege of Stralsund began, he was supposed to stay home with Mrs. Old Dessauer. But he so badly wanted to go to war that he decided to sneak off as a simple soldier. This display of valor, of course, pleased the Old Dessauer, and explains why FW let him go visit Fritz in Küstrin (after the reconciliation, I think).

But Fouquet also had a lifelong interest in the belles-lettres, which is how he got on Fritz's good side.

Remember that Stralsund was the place where FW met Duhan and was so impressed by his valor that he decided he couldn't possibly be a French-loving aesthete too.

FW: A+ judge of character, as always.

Edited Date: 2022-12-05 05:59 am (UTC)

From:

selenak

Royal Detective, I think you solved another case: a great anecdote gets transferred from a nobody to a famous person. sounds absolutely plausible to me, and we've seen several examples of this ("she cried but she took" most prominently), and yes, Lehndorff would have noted if he'd heard the story either naming Knobelsdorff or Fouqet, but not with Graurock. I must say, I always tended to think the candle story was apocryphal, full stop, but if König reports it in 1740, naming Graurock, who was demonstrably in Küstrin at the relevant time, then this is another matter. Mind you, I'm assuming that a) Graurock did other things, too, and b) Graurock himself must have voiced his complaints about not being rewarded pretty quickly, since this was summer 1740, with FW only dead since the last day of May. This probably contributed to general Fritzian cynicism about humanity, i.e. he must have wondered whether Graurock did it for him or for the future King back in the day.

To be fair: this would have been academic if anyone had reported Graurock to FW, and Graurock must have known that. So whatever his original motivation, and I'd say it was probably two thirds pity, one third awareness this WAS the future King, he did take a great risk.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Royal Detective, I think you solved another case:

I can hardly take much credit! It's another beautiful case of alchemy, with you reading Troeger and Lehndorff, and Felis reading Volz and both of you reading Manger, and me knowing my Katte execution. :D (ETA: And researching the Fouquet side, I suppose, both when betaing a Cahn fic and just now.)

Lehndorff would have noted if he'd heard the story either naming Knobelsdorff or Fouqet, but not with Graurock

Again, no credit to me, I'm just quoting past!you. :D And when Lehnedorff visits Küstrin in the 1750s and hears the story of the soldier with the cancle, it's just an anonymous soldier. At this point, Knobelsdorff was already famous and of Europe wide renown, and Lehndorff most definitely knew who he was, so if it had been him, he'd probably have noticed!

Ditto Fouquet, I say.

I must say, I always tended to think the candle story was apocryphal, full stop,

See, I always believed it, until we started turning up sources like Lehndorff hearing rumors and Fouquet's grandson in the nineteenth century, and then I reluctantly started to believe it was apocryphal.

but if König reports it in 1740, naming Graurock, who was demonstrably in Küstrin at the relevant time, then this is another matter.

But this, yes, exactly! That was some excellent alchemy with Felis knowing the candle story and me knowing/finding the Lepel report.

It's not solid evidence, but I'm inclined to believe Graurock did in fact let Fritz have a candle, even if not in that exact loophole-y fashion. Plus, the Lepel report confirms not only that Graurock was stationed at Küstrin at the time, but that he was assigned to go into Fritz's room and carry out orders, which makes it even more plausible that he would have been the one extinguishing candles.

Graurock himself must have voiced his complaints about not being rewarded pretty quickly, since this was summer 1740, with FW only dead since the last day of May. This probably contributed to general Fritzian cynicism about humanity

Ooh, that is a good point, I hadn't made that connection. :/

So whatever his original motivation, and I'd say it was probably two thirds pity, one third awareness this WAS the future King, he did take a great risk.

You know...if Fritz had to be woken up at 5 am to learn about his boyfriend's impending execution, I'm glad that at least one of the parties breaking the news was someone who was somewhat sympathetic to him and tried to alleviate the prison conditions.

But I can see Fritz resenting Graurock seeing him at his most vulnerable nonetheless. :( Especially if he then started complaining about money.

Edited Date: 2022-12-05 10:19 am (UTC)