Rant: a sequel
Nov. 1st, 2022 08:54 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cahnSo I have a lot of THOUGHTS AND ALSO FEELINGS about Babylon 5's 5th season (Byron?? Bester! Garibaldi! The Day of the Dead!! Lochley!! Number One!! LONDO. G'KAR. THE REGENT.) but I have just watched "Objects at Rest" and I thought I'd give an update to my previous 5x02 post about Lennier! Because also: LENNIER!
So, to recap for those who haven't just (re)watched S5: since 5x02,
a) Delenn, unbeknownst to Sheridan, secretly meets with Lennier in a bar. IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT. To send him on a secret mission. That Sheridan also doesn't know about. And asks if Lennier can stay for longer to hang out. And gives him all these girlish yearning looks. And when Sheridan finds out, Delenn is all "But you're the one in the wrong for not sending him in the first place!" gah. All together: OH DELENN NO!
b) Delenn and Lennier end up in a ship together, everyone else around them dies, and they think they're about to die too and Lennier confesses his love. They end up not dying afterwards, and Delenn very nicely makes it clear She Does Not Feel That Way About Him, which is GREAT but which she should have done A SEASON AGO because quite frankly at this point I thought she DID feel that way about him and I expect so did Lennier, and this is so much tougher on him than it would have been if she had done this ages ago.
c) Lennier comes to escort Delenn and Sheridan to Minbar, which comes with him getting to sit through a lot of Delenn and Sheridan being touchy-feely with each other -- I mean, not any more so than your average just-married human couple, they're not bad by human standards, but I imagine by not-very-touchy Minbari standards it's basically the equivalent of them constantly necking in public. All culminating in:
d) after an unfortunate coolant accident, Lennier needs to open a door to save Sheridan. And... he doesn't. (And Sheridan saves himself.)
AS WE ALL KNEW I WOULD SAY, all my sympathy is with Lennier, obviously he shouldn't have done that, but, like, I am still totally on his side because that poor kid, he's been set up for this for the LAST TWO YEARS. I mean, I wish his stress fracture point had been somewhere else that wasn't quite so awful (like, couldn't you just punch him in the face or something? Sheridan could easily have understood and forgiven that, and no, I realize Doylistically that wouldn't have worked), but that there WAS a stress fracture point is just not surprising to me at all. Delenn overloaded him with way too much, emotionally speaking, and wouldn't stop even when he tried his best to get away, and the fuse blew. (To mix my metaphors, I guess...)
Of course I'm speaking from the perspective of knowing, from it coming up vaguely throughselenak's discussion posts, that Lennier was going to do "something," even if I didn't know what, and I wonder if I would have been a lot more WTF if it had come out of the blue like it did for the original watchers. I think it would have shocked me a lot more, but I think I still would have eventually come down on the side of "natural end to what was happening with him." And then again I think it couldn't have quite come out of the blue, because of Morden's prophecy too.
Also, it strikes me as a very Minbari failure mode -- you can just see Lennier thinking, I don't have to do anything, I just don't have to press that button... and that's the same sort of reasoning, or whatever, as the Warrior Caste used when they were like "so we'll just uh drive out the Religious Caste into the freezing cold, that's not actually killing killing them." Or that Delenn uses all the time when she's like "well I'll just not tell John about [insert thing of the week here], it's not like that's doing anything wrong really..."
It broke my heart, and I think it's totally IC, that Lennier (because he really is a good kid who had just one second where he broke) changed his mind and realized he couldn't actually leave Sheridan like that, and he went back for him. Only then it was too late, and now Sheridan doesn't know that Lennier came back to save him, not to finish the job. (Them locking eyes at that point, the scared and hurt look Sheridan gives him, OUCH.) But I'm really glad he did that too. (And my headcanon is that it will give Lennier some comfort, later.)
And then there's Delenn's speech to Sheridan about how you can in one misguided, emotional minute mess up the work of years, and how she really wants him to forgive Lennier, and DELENN YEP WE SEE YOU PROJECTING LIKE AN IMAX THERE.
And all that was great and then she caps it off with "I can't imagine how he's feelign right now," and WELL ACTUALLY I THINK YOU CAN. Or, maybe, you can't, because you never got caught and Lennier absolutely did, and really that's the difference between the two of you, isn't it?
This scene also made me think, afterwards, that Delenn isn't a very good mentor for yet another reason -- we know what a good helpful conversation between SOMEONE WHO'S BEEN THERE BEFORE looks like, we just saw Lochley help Garibaldi with that -- but Delenn, who could have been like, "look, I know what it feels like, I've been there, you KNOW I've been there, except what I did was far worse, you just have to work through it and do what you can," just reverts to her usual "I neeeeeed you Lennier!" which thankfully Lennier does not fall for. (Of course, Lennier might rightfully point out, as above, that she never got caught... but he won't do that, because he will never criticize anything Delenn does, which is a huge part of the problem.) But of course that leaves him nothing to do but self-banish himself, which, ALSO not exactly a great solution, but what else is he gonna do now?
Also, a minor point, but when she's all "so I had Lennier's room searched and read his diary" my first thought was, okay, I realize that Lennier just did a Bad Thing and Delenn is within her rights to find out what happened, but man, that's got to be basically Lennier's second-worst nightmare, the woman whom he's got a super crush on reading his Very Sekret Diary all about how he loooooves her and thinks Sheridan is super not worthy of her.
...I must confess my second thought was, so, Delenn is all "I knew he had feelings for me, but when I read his diary, I was like, whoa!" and, okay, I bet that canonically this is actually just one of those half-truths to Sheridan, but it's more entertaining to think about what could have been IN this diary! is this diary Lennier's Lennier/Delenn RPF?? (and omg HOW embarrassing would THAT be) Is it a lot of "John Sheridan is a poopy-head!"?? I kind of want Lennier's diary in Diary of a Wimpy Kid style...
Lennier just.... really really needs a hug, is what I'm saying. (A PLATONIC HUG NOT FROM DELENN.) (And also this is why everyone should go read my giftfic where he does get a very-much-needed platonic hug not from Delenn!)
I still want the break-it-differently AU where the stress fracture point is that Sheridan is bumbling along saying something he doesn't realize is crass about the Human-Minbari war, and Lennier just up and snaps at him that Delenn started it. I can see why canon couldn't do that, because it would just destroy Sheridan/Delenn, and it would probably destroy Delenn/Lennier much harder than this did, but...
Next up is Sleeping in Light <3
So, to recap for those who haven't just (re)watched S5: since 5x02,
Spoilers up to "Objects at Rest"! Content note for Many Capital Letters!
a) Delenn, unbeknownst to Sheridan, secretly meets with Lennier in a bar. IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT. To send him on a secret mission. That Sheridan also doesn't know about. And asks if Lennier can stay for longer to hang out. And gives him all these girlish yearning looks. And when Sheridan finds out, Delenn is all "But you're the one in the wrong for not sending him in the first place!" gah. All together: OH DELENN NO!
b) Delenn and Lennier end up in a ship together, everyone else around them dies, and they think they're about to die too and Lennier confesses his love. They end up not dying afterwards, and Delenn very nicely makes it clear She Does Not Feel That Way About Him, which is GREAT but which she should have done A SEASON AGO because quite frankly at this point I thought she DID feel that way about him and I expect so did Lennier, and this is so much tougher on him than it would have been if she had done this ages ago.
c) Lennier comes to escort Delenn and Sheridan to Minbar, which comes with him getting to sit through a lot of Delenn and Sheridan being touchy-feely with each other -- I mean, not any more so than your average just-married human couple, they're not bad by human standards, but I imagine by not-very-touchy Minbari standards it's basically the equivalent of them constantly necking in public. All culminating in:
d) after an unfortunate coolant accident, Lennier needs to open a door to save Sheridan. And... he doesn't. (And Sheridan saves himself.)
AS WE ALL KNEW I WOULD SAY, all my sympathy is with Lennier, obviously he shouldn't have done that, but, like, I am still totally on his side because that poor kid, he's been set up for this for the LAST TWO YEARS. I mean, I wish his stress fracture point had been somewhere else that wasn't quite so awful (like, couldn't you just punch him in the face or something? Sheridan could easily have understood and forgiven that, and no, I realize Doylistically that wouldn't have worked), but that there WAS a stress fracture point is just not surprising to me at all. Delenn overloaded him with way too much, emotionally speaking, and wouldn't stop even when he tried his best to get away, and the fuse blew. (To mix my metaphors, I guess...)
Of course I'm speaking from the perspective of knowing, from it coming up vaguely through
selenak's discussion posts, that Lennier was going to do "something," even if I didn't know what, and I wonder if I would have been a lot more WTF if it had come out of the blue like it did for the original watchers. I think it would have shocked me a lot more, but I think I still would have eventually come down on the side of "natural end to what was happening with him." And then again I think it couldn't have quite come out of the blue, because of Morden's prophecy too.Also, it strikes me as a very Minbari failure mode -- you can just see Lennier thinking, I don't have to do anything, I just don't have to press that button... and that's the same sort of reasoning, or whatever, as the Warrior Caste used when they were like "so we'll just uh drive out the Religious Caste into the freezing cold, that's not actually killing killing them." Or that Delenn uses all the time when she's like "well I'll just not tell John about [insert thing of the week here], it's not like that's doing anything wrong really..."
It broke my heart, and I think it's totally IC, that Lennier (because he really is a good kid who had just one second where he broke) changed his mind and realized he couldn't actually leave Sheridan like that, and he went back for him. Only then it was too late, and now Sheridan doesn't know that Lennier came back to save him, not to finish the job. (Them locking eyes at that point, the scared and hurt look Sheridan gives him, OUCH.) But I'm really glad he did that too. (And my headcanon is that it will give Lennier some comfort, later.)
And then there's Delenn's speech to Sheridan about how you can in one misguided, emotional minute mess up the work of years, and how she really wants him to forgive Lennier, and DELENN YEP WE SEE YOU PROJECTING LIKE AN IMAX THERE.
And all that was great and then she caps it off with "I can't imagine how he's feelign right now," and WELL ACTUALLY I THINK YOU CAN. Or, maybe, you can't, because you never got caught and Lennier absolutely did, and really that's the difference between the two of you, isn't it?
This scene also made me think, afterwards, that Delenn isn't a very good mentor for yet another reason -- we know what a good helpful conversation between SOMEONE WHO'S BEEN THERE BEFORE looks like, we just saw Lochley help Garibaldi with that -- but Delenn, who could have been like, "look, I know what it feels like, I've been there, you KNOW I've been there, except what I did was far worse, you just have to work through it and do what you can," just reverts to her usual "I neeeeeed you Lennier!" which thankfully Lennier does not fall for. (Of course, Lennier might rightfully point out, as above, that she never got caught... but he won't do that, because he will never criticize anything Delenn does, which is a huge part of the problem.) But of course that leaves him nothing to do but self-banish himself, which, ALSO not exactly a great solution, but what else is he gonna do now?
Also, a minor point, but when she's all "so I had Lennier's room searched and read his diary" my first thought was, okay, I realize that Lennier just did a Bad Thing and Delenn is within her rights to find out what happened, but man, that's got to be basically Lennier's second-worst nightmare, the woman whom he's got a super crush on reading his Very Sekret Diary all about how he loooooves her and thinks Sheridan is super not worthy of her.
...I must confess my second thought was, so, Delenn is all "I knew he had feelings for me, but when I read his diary, I was like, whoa!" and, okay, I bet that canonically this is actually just one of those half-truths to Sheridan, but it's more entertaining to think about what could have been IN this diary! is this diary Lennier's Lennier/Delenn RPF?? (and omg HOW embarrassing would THAT be) Is it a lot of "John Sheridan is a poopy-head!"?? I kind of want Lennier's diary in Diary of a Wimpy Kid style...
Lennier just.... really really needs a hug, is what I'm saying. (A PLATONIC HUG NOT FROM DELENN.) (And also this is why everyone should go read my giftfic where he does get a very-much-needed platonic hug not from Delenn!)
I still want the break-it-differently AU where the stress fracture point is that Sheridan is bumbling along saying something he doesn't realize is crass about the Human-Minbari war, and Lennier just up and snaps at him that Delenn started it. I can see why canon couldn't do that, because it would just destroy Sheridan/Delenn, and it would probably destroy Delenn/Lennier much harder than this did, but...
Next up is Sleeping in Light <3
no subject
Date: 2022-11-02 02:39 pm (UTC)that there WAS a stress fracture point is just not surprising to me at all
Me neither. At the time, and I think still now and then, parts of fandom was in massive "Lennier would never!" uproar, and I think Bill Mumy also might have said something at some convention that he thought Lennier would never, but I have to disagree. Given all we've seen on the show, Lennier would. Not in cold blood and planned ahead of time, of course, but in the moment? And repenting thereafter? He would.
(Strangely enough, after Atonement no one protested that Delenn would never.)
Otoh, I also think Lennier is an adult, and it would have been possible for him to avoid temptation. I don't mean this in an accusing way - in his place, I'd have had nervous breakdowns long before that - just in the sense that nothing is invevitable, and he could have, as you said, punched Sheridan instead.
Also, it strikes me as a very Minbari failure mode -- you can just see Lennier thinking, I don't have to do anything, I just don't have to press that button... and that's the same sort of reasoning, or whatever, as the Warrior Caste used when they were like "so we'll just uh drive out the Religious Caste into the freezing cold, that's not actually killing killing them." Or that Delenn uses all the time when she's like "well I'll just not tell John about [insert thing of the week here], it's not like that's doing anything wrong really..."
That's true.
no subject
Date: 2022-11-02 06:13 pm (UTC)Oh, yeah, Lennier is an adult and he definitely had a choice, it wasn't inevitable that he chose that way (lol, I would also like the AU where he saved Sheridan and then punched him in the face because he just couldn't take it anymore, but really, more to the point, he could have chosen to stay away from Delenn a LOT MORE and remove himself from the scene entirely, in which case he wouldn't have been on that ship to have been tempted in the first place), I just still have a lot of sympathy for him :)
...I also have a lot of sympathy for Garibaldi this season too, come to think of it, that poor guy, even though I was also like OH NOOOOO WHAT ARE YOU DOOOOOING. I feel like Garibaldi, way more than Lennier really, just was completely broken, and gosh even though presumably he could have chosen to get help instead I can absolutely see how that didn't happen. I think my feelings about Londo are more complicated -- being broken wasn't quite Londo's problem, at least at the time -- but still obviously I find him quite sympathetic. I think... JMS is just really good at exploring why people make the terrible awful no-good decisions that they (we) do!
no subject
Date: 2022-11-03 01:28 am (UTC)So, I was one of the people who watched s5 as it aired, and therefore had no preparation at all for Lennier not rescuing Sheridan, and by s5 Lennier was one of my favorite characters (among a lot of favorites, admittedly), and it was basically all !!! for me. (I can't say "Lennier would never!" because I do agree with you that it is plausible that he would be basically pushed to a breaking point, and he is still quite young, when lots of people who certainly were old enough to know better have succumbed to various forms of temptation on this show. And I also agree that this is a very Minbari way to "fall":
you can just see Lennier thinking, I don't have to do anything, I just don't have to press that button...
-- yeah, you're just, like, getting out of the way of the universe doing its thing, no active malice here, it's all good! (Also LOL at "that Delenn uses all the time when she's like "well I'll just not tell John about [insert thing of the week here], it's not like that's doing anything wrong really..." -- I love Delenn, but ain't that the truth XD
Anyway, this is still one of those moments that makes me never want to rewatch season 5 (but also Garibaldi is another favorite of mine, and it's pretty rough on him as well, and then there's Byron XD), but actually when I was rewatching the earlier seasons, there's some interesting stuff I found that gives this moment some additional really interesting context. Remember "Convictions" in early s3, where Lennier saves Londo?
I had this written in my write-up of "Convictions": "But the mirroring also works with Lennier, the pairing of him and Londo which recalls their earlier night on the town and how light and funny everything was in s1, and his rescue of Londo made me think of his failure to help Sheridan in "Objects at Rest" -- it's almost a perfect mirror of the setup: here Lennier goes out of his way to risk his life to save someone he considers a bad person for the noble reason that all life is sacred, whereas in s5 Lennier stands by and leaves a good man to die for a petty personal reason." (I'd dearly like to know whether Lennier's actions in "Objects at Rest" were planned this far back, or if this was a fortuitous echo JMS found later...)
it's more entertaining to think about what could have been IN this diary! is this diary Lennier's Lennier/Delenn RPF?? (and omg HOW embarrassing would THAT be) Is it a lot of "John Sheridan is a poopy-head!"?? I kind of want Lennier's diary in Diary of a Wimpy Kid style...
OMG, now I want that too XD
P.S. Also, I went and read the Vir gives Lennier a platonic hug fic you got for ToT, and it was indeed lovely, so thank you for pointing that way! :)
no subject
Date: 2022-11-03 03:33 am (UTC)Lennier is totally one of my favorites, which has a lot to do with how I'm on his side anyway -- but also I want ALL THE FIX-IT FOR HIM now, gah!
I love Delenn too, and a lot of my OH DELENN NO is because I just don't want her to make these mistakes that are just in the long run so hard on both her and the people she loves! <3 But, Delenn!
Season 5 is rough, and I feel like there's not much in the way of triumphs -- it's all the careful working-out of tragedy, and then these last couple of episodes have been mostly elegiac, which is really fascinating but which I agree is... rough. There's Day of the Dead, which is hard on Lennier but not so much on anyone else? And Lochley, who is great!
Ah, that's a really nice observation about "Convictions"! Lennier <3
Oh yay, I'm so glad you liked the ToT fic! <3
no subject
Date: 2022-11-04 04:36 pm (UTC)https://archiveofourown.org/works/493883
Last two arguments: the show has Lochley as a recurring guest star, and in one of the episodes the self professed most cynical character has to rescue a kidnapped cat. Said cat is called Mr. Kitty, and since the episode is dedicated to „Mr. Kitty, now chasing star mice“ , I presume this to have been an homage to JMS‘ cat at the time. (He feels deeply about cats!)
no subject
Date: 2022-11-11 05:10 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2022-12-01 10:20 pm (UTC)One of the things I love about the potential for the worldbuilding (but it never seems to come out in canon, it's just - fan extrapolation I've seen bandied about, where in the show it just sort of goes unquestioned/justified) is that Minbar is b r u t a l to its people in ways Minbari aren't too happy with, either (and adjusting poorly in Minbari fashion, because they have such a stagnant and rigid society that there isn't any room for rebellion and maybe they don't have any capacity to know what it would look like, they just know they're mad and have no outlet). And you've got some people bitching about how the younger generation just isn't getting it and doesn't serve/be dutiful like they used to (lookin at you, S1 Draal, with your 'kids these days' speech 😂️) and others just take it all for granted because it worked for them. Delenn's one of those, I feel - what Lennier is to her is maybe an incredibly Minbari and natural-to-them thing, but it is unquestionably stifling him.
It's so funny that he talks about a pure love to Marcus because Marcus (as Neroon points out) winds up being a better Minbari than Lennier - Marcus' love for Susan doesn't get to the point where he gets Lennierish about it. (That said we never really know, Marcus doesn't survive past S4, so who knows what might've happened there...)
I wonder too sometimes what would have happened if Dukhat had survived and idk some other Grey Council satai had died (not Delenn) and Delenn could have been Dukhat's aide a lot longer, whether she would have been more like Lennier. Of course, since it didn't happen that way, Dukhat's death made Delenn able to stand on her own - brittle but strong, at the start, and then later much more legitimately strong. But I love those what if canon divergence thought experiments!!
Also, it strikes me as a very Minbari failure mode -- you can just see Lennier thinking, I don't have to do anything, I just don't have to press that button... and that's the same sort of reasoning, or whatever, as the Warrior Caste used when they were like "so we'll just uh drive out the Religious Caste into the freezing cold, that's not actually killing killing them." Or that Delenn uses all the time when she's like "well I'll just not tell John about [insert thing of the week here], it's not like that's doing anything wrong really..."
Oh, THIS! This right here. this is one of the most astute and insightful things I've ever read about the Minbari and I'm so glad you said it because you've nailed it. They're just - they're really Like That, aren't they, masters of the half-truth-isn't-a-lie wiggle room. Give them a law, they'll find ten loopholes. Lennier didn't have to attend some special martial arts class for the philosophically inclined, he just had to be Minbari.
no subject
Date: 2022-12-02 05:07 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2022-12-09 07:02 am (UTC)Yes to what you say about Minar! and I wonder too about how Minbar has this very service-oriented society, and yet they have NO MENTAL HEALTH OR RELATIONSHIP THERAPY OR HR of any kind! Because if they did, Lennier sure as heck ought to have been able to both complain to HR and have his own therapist tell him all this is Not Okay, instead of having to put up with the super sketch behavior of his immediate superior! And, like, he's not the only one, Delenn obviously needs All the Therapy, Neroon could definitely use some... I mean, Minbar as a whole is kind of traumatized, isn't it!
(Yes, I know, Doylistically it's canon from 90s, it's not like the humans in canon have any therapy either, and a whole heck of a lot of them *cough*Garibaldi*cough* could really have used it! But Minbar likes to think they are more enlightened, so..)
and others just take it all for granted because it worked for them. Delenn's one of those, I feel - what Lennier is to her is maybe an incredibly Minbari and natural-to-them thing, but it is unquestionably stifling him.
Ohhhh yeah that makes a lot of sense! And then what you say about Delenn maybe having it easier in some ways because Dukhat died -- I definitely got the impression that her relationship with Dukhat was a little of that hero-worship that Lennier has for her.
They're just - they're really Like That, aren't they, masters of the half-truth-isn't-a-lie wiggle room.
argh, they so are!
no subject
Date: 2022-12-09 07:02 am (UTC)