cahn

Gonna go ahead and make this post even though Yuletide is coming...

But in the meantime, there has been some fic in the fandom posted!

Holding His Space (2503 words) by felisnocturna
Chapters: 1/1
Fandom: 18th Century CE RPF, 18th Century CE Frederician RPF
Rating: Teen And Up Audiences
Warnings: Creator Chose Not To Use Archive Warnings
Relationships: Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf/Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great
Characters: Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf, Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great
Additional Tags: Protectiveness, Domestic, Character Study
Summary:

Five times Fredersdorf has to stay behind - and one time Friedrich doesn't leave.

Using People (3392 words) by prinzsorgenfrei
Chapters: 1/1
Fandom: 18th Century CE RPF
Rating: General Audiences
Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply
Relationships: Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great/Hans Hermann von Katte
Characters: Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great, Hans Hermann von Katte
Additional Tags: Fluff, Idiots in Love, reading plays aloud while gazing into each others eyes
Summary:

Friedrich had started to talk to him because he had thought of him as a bit of a ditz.
And now here he was. Here he was months later, bundled up in this very same man’s blankets with a cup of hot coffee in front of him, its scent mixing with that of Katte’s French perfume.
_
Fluffy One Shot about one traitorous Crown Prince and the sycophant he accidentally fell for.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

luzula

I have read the fascinating article The pleasures of procreation: traditional and biomedical theories of conception, by Angus McLaren!

So, during the 16th and 17th centuries (don't know about earlier) the dominant medical theory was that women had to come during sex for conception to take place. Which isn't that far-fetched--the idea was that both men and women had to contribute seed, and since men need to come for their seed to be ejaculated, the same was true for women. This theory comes from Hippocrates via Galen (Aristotle of course thought women were only passive vessels).

Lazarus Riverius in The Practice of Physick (1658): …the woman’s womb, skipping as it were for joy, may meet her husband's sperm, graciously and freely receive the same, and draw it into its innermost cavity or closet, and withal bedew and sprinkle it with her own sperm, and powered forth in that pang of pleasure, that so by the commixture of both, conception may arise.

The most common sex manual, the weirdly titled Aristotle’s Masterpiece, held to this theory until the 1755 edition. It included instruction about clitoral stimulation, which gave delights, and without this, the fair sex neither desire mutual embraces, nor have pleasure in them, nor conceive by them. This is interesting, by the way, since the only 18th century porn I have read (The Memoirs of Fanny Hill by John Cleland (1749)) does not mention the clitoris at all, and only focuses on penis-in-vagina sex. I guess it's a male fantasy.

So the focus on women's pleasure was of course positive (though it obviously does not mean that everything was happy equality between the sexes). It also had a negative side: if a woman was raped and conceived, that was used as evidence that it wasn't really rape.

But gradually during the 18th century, various new theories of conception came along. The microscope allowed the sperm to be seen, though the female egg wasn't found for a while yet. in 1776, the first artificial insemination was done. Medicine got closer to an empirical and scientific understanding of conception. There is no logical reason why this should mean that women’s pleasure in sex was disregarded, even if it was not now seen as necessary to conception, so there were probably other social changes that helped cause it.

A Dr. Acton in the mid-19th century: As a general rule, a modest woman seldom desires any sexual gratification for herself. She submits to her husband, but only to please him and, but for the desire of maternity, would far rather be relieved from his attentions. So yeah, it's time to lie back and think of England! Sigh, the 19th century. The rape thing did change, though. Also interesting is that doctors in the 19th century were annoyed at the lingering beliefs among the lower classes that women had to come in order to conceive!

Edited Date: 2022-09-30 08:48 pm (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

This is great, thank you!

the woman’s womb, skipping as it were for joy

Oh, wow. That is a heck of a mental image!

I have to say, the only time I've felt my womb skip, it wasn't for joy (menstrual cramps), and that's why I had it removed. :P

The most common sex manual, the weirdly titled Aristotle’s Masterpiece

Oh, wow, I have to know more.

Wikipedia:

It was first published in 1684 and written by an unknown author who falsely claimed to be Aristotle. As a consequence the author is now described as a Pseudo-Aristotle...The title of the work was possibly chosen because many people saw Aristotle as a sex expert in early modern England. Another popular pseudo-Aristotelian text which covered sex and reproduction, Aristotle's Problems (1595), was responsible for this reputation. The real Aristotle also wrote works about the reproduction of animals (such as History of Animals and Generation of Animals) and many people considered him an authority on scientific matters in general so “[a]ttributing the work to Aristotle [gave] it a claim to respectability, authority, and ancient pedigree."

Alrighty, then! Aristotle's masterpiece.

The rape thing did change, though.

Sort of! Apparently this view that if a woman conceives, it can't have been rape, is alive and well among lawmakers in Texas. *facepalm*

From:

cahn

It was first published in 1684 and written by an unknown author who falsely claimed to be Aristotle. As a consequence the author is now described as a Pseudo-Aristotle...The title of the work was possibly chosen because many people saw Aristotle as a sex expert in early modern England. Another popular pseudo-Aristotelian text which covered sex and reproduction, Aristotle's Problems (1595), was responsible for this reputation. The real Aristotle also wrote works about the reproduction of animals (such as History of Animals and Generation of Animals) and many people considered him an authority on scientific matters in general so “[a]ttributing the work to Aristotle [gave] it a claim to respectability, authority, and ancient pedigree."

Whoa! That's kind of crazy. I think it's particularly hilarious given what

luzula said about Aristotle in her post!

From:

luzula

Glad you enjoyed! : D I stumbled on this essay while doing fic research on 18th century medicine and career paths for men becoming surgeons and physicians, and just had to share...

Sort of! Apparently this view that if a woman conceives, it can't have been rape, is alive and well among lawmakers in Texas. *facepalm*
OMG. Are they determined to pick the worst aspects of every century?

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Yes! Because if you believe a woman can't conceive if she was really raped, you can ban abortion and not make exceptions for rape. I haven't checked (and don't want to) to find out if they make the orgasm connection (or if 19th century prudery stops them), but ugh. Yes. Worst of every century.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

By the way! I know I haven't replied to your write-up on women, armies, and warfare, but I did read it and I went looking for the book, only to find that it was not on Kindle. (That doesn't mean I won't buy a copy and digitize it, it just makes the impulse-buying and browsing much harder.) And I am finally reading Szechi's book on the Jacobites. So I do appreciate your reviews and recs!

From:

luzula

No worries at all! I still have the book on women and warfare home from the university library, so if you have specific questions, I can look them up.

I hope you're enjoying Szechi! I am contemplating reading his book on the ’15.

From:

cahn

OK, this was fascinating!

…the woman’s womb, skipping as it were for joy, may meet her husband's sperm

I too immediately honed in on this part of the passage. Wow!

The most common sex manual, the weirdly titled Aristotle’s Masterpiece, held to this theory until the 1755 edition. It included instruction about clitoral stimulation

This is kind of amazing.

in 1776, the first artificial insemination was done.

Whoa! I had no idea they could do this so early! I mean, I assume that this just means they put a sperm and egg next to each other and realized it became a zygote, but still, that's pretty impressive for 1776!

From:

luzula

Glad you enjoyed! : D

Whoa! I had no idea they could do this so early! I mean, I assume that this just means they put a sperm and egg next to each other and realized it became a zygote, but still, that's pretty impressive for 1776!
Ah no, it wasn't that sort of artificial insemination, maybe I didn't use the right term. What he did is just to put semen into a woman without the means of a penis. I mean, it's very possible that people had done this before, but this was the first time that we know of when a doctor did it. Actually it was only reported posthumously 23 years later, because he was afraid that moralists would be upset.

From:

cahn

Oh! No, I just got confused, you are using it correctly :) That's still very cool that he was able to do it so early!

From:

selenak

So, during the 16th and 17th centuries (don't know about earlier) the dominant medical theory was that women had to come during sex for conception to take place.

This was one of the many reasons why I disliked the tv series The Devil's Whore - they had an 17th century just pre English Evil War era noble be SHOCKED and HORRIFIED at his new wife having an orgasm, and here I was muttering "wrong century! He would have been delighted and assumed it meant she'd get pregnant soon!"

It also had a negative side: if a woman was raped and conceived, that was used as evidence that it wasn't really rape.

This, otoh, was a historical valiant plot point in the recent movie The Last Duel, which is set in the late middle ages.

From:

luzula

This was one of the many reasons why I disliked the tv series The Devil's Whore - they had an 17th century just pre English Evil War era noble be SHOCKED and HORRIFIED at his new wife having an orgasm, and here I was muttering "wrong century! He would have been delighted and assumed it meant she'd get pregnant soon!"

Sigh. I guess some people extrapolate back from the 19th century and assume that it only got more prudish the further back you go! Which is ridiculous.