cahn | 18th-Century Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 36

Starting a couple of comments earlier than usual to mention there are a couple of new salon fics! These probably both need canon knowledge.

felis ficlets on siblings!

Siblings (541 words) by felisnocturna
Chapters: 2/2
Fandom: 18th Century CE RPF
Rating: General Audiences
Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply
Characters: Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great, Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf, August Wilhelm von Preußen | Augustus William of Prussia (1722-1758), Wilhelmine von Preußen | Wilhelmine of Prussia (1709-1758)
Summary:

Three Fills for the 2022 Three Sentence Ficathon.

Chapter One: Protective Action / Babysitting at Rheinsberg (Frederick/Fredersdorf, William+Henry+Ferdinand)
Chapter Two: Here Be Lions (Wilhelmine)

Unsent Letters fic by me:

Letters for a Dead King (1981 words) by raspberryhunter
Chapters: 1/1
Fandom: 18th Century CE RPF
Rating: General Audiences
Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply
Relationships: Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great & Friedrich Heinrich Ludwig von Preußen (1726-1802)
Characters: Friedrich Heinrich Ludwig von Preußen | Henry of Prussia (1726-1802)
Additional Tags: Epistolary, Love/Hate, Talking To Dead People, Canonical Character Death, Dysfunctional Family
Summary:

Just because one's king and brother is dead doesn't mean one has to stop writing to him.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Still practicing font, still laughing my head off at Lehndorff's antics.

I've also come to the conclusion that it's obligatory to read volume 1 in sync with volume 2, for context.

Example:

Volume 2: "As for me, I sneak out of the room, in order to visit my 'einziggeliebten' [sorry, this is so good I couldn't bring myself to translate it] friend for a moment."

Volume 1: "Birthday of the queen mother. Large and luxurious dinner with the queen; we dine off gold. True happiness isn't found in court feasts; boredom usually accompanies this luxury."

See, it's important to know *what* he's sneaking out of to visit his only-beloved friend! Chronology isn't just plot, it's also characterization, as I always like to say.

April 1: "Three weeks ago, I thought I was happy, now I'm the saddest of people."

April 2: "I spend the evening at home quietly and in sweet melancholy. That does not hinder me from thinking often of my dear, only friend." No, Lehndorff, I wouldn't imagine it did.

WHAT. (Liveblogging again, so you get to see my emotional reactions to things in real time.)

April 3. "Dinner with Prince Henry; the Prince of Prussia is also there. In the afternoon we go walking in the garden of Frau Marschall, where we experience a droll performance. Then we look at the books of the allegedly deceased Marschall, who has fled, and everyone takes something from among them."

Wait, Marschall faked his death so he could disappear?!

OOOHHH, this is making sense of something I read when I was trying to figure out who this guy was. (Though it does inevitably open up more questions.)

See, when I was searching for Staatsminister Katte and a Marschall, I found Samuel Marschall, a guy from East Prussia, who rose from the middle class to the nobility by impressing both FW and Fritz. His successor in certain official positions in the 1740s was Staatsminister Katte. (But not in a way that made me understand why he would get a fortune.)

So I looked at Samuel's children, but couldn't find any who died in 1753. He had a son who was a legation counselor, just like Lehndorff's Marschall was a legation counselor from East Prussia (which would make sense for a Lehndorff cousin, as the Lehndorffs are from East Prussia), but he died in 1805 and has no birthdate listed in Wikipedia.

While googling, I saw historians mentioning that famous Samuel Marschall had a no-good son who fled Berlin to escape his creditors, but I thought it couldn't be the same one as Lehndorff's, as that one died before he had a chance to do anything like that.

HE FAKED HIS DEATH. It was even in the Berlin newspaper!

Wooooow. Sorry, Lehndorff, he was in deep debt, and you were never going to get that fortune.

Detective work is fun and yields gossipy sensationalism!

Issues:
1. The other reason I didn't think the two Marschalls could be the same, besides the death dates, was that Samuel's son's name was also slightly different (Friedrich Wilhelm vs. Friedrich Albrecht) from the Marschall given in the newspapers, but these 18th century people had enough names that there's no reason these can't be the same Marschall.

2. But something that bothers me is that the Marschall von Bieberstein family is old Saxon nobility and Samuel Marschall the East Prussian was only ennobled in 1717. And there's no mention of Samuel on the von Bieberstein page nor vice versa. They really looked like two separate noble families.

3. And furthermore, I can't seem to make Catherine Rolas du Rosey be the half sister of Samuel Marschall's son, as they have no parents in common, but I've seen weirder things in genealogies, and at least there is an East Prussian connection. (This is reminding me that Kloosterhuis got Melusine's genealogy wrong, in the sense that I checked the exact source he cited and it said the opposite of what he said it said.)

[BTW, Selena, don't be surprised to see Kloosterhuis getting things wrong, I've caught him in 3 Peter Keith chronology mistakes, 1 Rottembourg chronology mistake, and 1 Melusine genealogy mistake, and that's just the things that my new-to-Prussian-history self has caught!]

Right, we have Berlin newspapers, I need to see if they ever picked up on the scandalous disappearance of the newly arrived legation counselor.

...

Okay, not that I'm seeing, but the print quality is so bad I could easily have missed it. It is neat to see the papers talking about many of the same people and events as Lehndorff, though.

What I can tell you from Google is that, at least according to modern historians, this runaway Marschall apparently fled all the way to Madrid and became a Catholic, whereupon Fritz forced his wife, who had remained in Berlin, to divorce him.

Also, point the fourth that's bothering me now: if Marschall's married and childless, why is his fortune going to anyone other than his wife? Is that how it worked?

Okay, back to the diary. At this point, it's less the font that's responsible for my slow progress of a couple pages per day and more the deep desire of my soul to be a royal detective and not a royal reader. ;)

April 6: Lehndorff attends a wonderful dinner with friends and good conversation that he says is the kind of event that *is* to his taste (unlike the kind he sneaks off from). "Had heaven not destroyed my hopes, I would have such dinners at my place."

Ooh, it's April 8th and he has a new source of grief. I don't know what it is yet, but "the advantage of big problems is that they make you insensible to the everyday little problems."

Okay, Lehndorff, you've built up the suspense. What is your new grief?

...Okay, long philosophical digression on that topic first.

Nope, a long philosophical digression on suffering is all we get. Volume 1? Nope, nothing. Onward we go.

Oh, lol, he hasn't seen Heinrich for two days--THE INHUMANITY--and now he has to swallow him up with his eyes. Oh no, and now Heinrich is saying hard words to him! Like, "It's only been two days, stop suffocating me"? We don't find out. But "O, cruel world! How I would like to escape you," says Lehndorff, who goes home full of despair.

Next day, Lehndorff gets a letter that makes him feel better, because Heinrich says he was actually mad at someone *else* and was just taking it out on Lehndorff. Immediately Lehndorff forgets everything that's been bothering him, since it has to do with this heavenly man, and does not leave Heinrich the whole day.

Good lord.

Day 16, Lehndorff loves Heinrich really unspeakably, and his low spirits and sadness are boundless. He's afraid the happy time of his life is over.

Ooh. "My beloved is sad. There are moments when I gladly see him that way; then all his beautiful characteristics come to the fore."

Back a couple days earlier in volume 1, a Frau von Mengden arrives. She's the sister of Julia Mengden, the lady-in-waiting who was in the threesome with Russian regent Anna Leopoldovna and Lynar the Sexy Saxon Envoy (whom Julia married) before Elizaveta staged a coup and put Anna in prison with EC's brother and their kids, including baby Ivan VI. Julia is in prison and will remain so until Catherine the Great comes to power.

Lol, April 15, in volume 1 (because it mentions Fritz): Lehndorff has to go to Potsdam, a trip he would make only reluctantly, "if I weren't going to find my dear prince Heinrich there." Fritz arrives, which causes terrible disagreements in the royal family; the reason is that Fritz is in a bad mood over Voltaire. (Voltaire left Prussia March 26.)

Maupertuis challenges Voltaire to a duel. Voltaire replies in a letter that makes everyone laugh and is even more biting than the Akakia.

Meh, it's not in the wiki collection of Voltaire's correspondence. But there is a letter from Freytag on April 21, directed to Fritz and saying that he's keeping an eye out for Voltaire, as per Fritz's (hm, not Fredersdorf's?) handwritten letter of April 11.

Oh, yeah. Fritz is in a bad mood.

April 25: "It is said that Prince Maximilian of Hesse died."

Mildred: Did he really, though? Or did he just fake his death to escape his creditors? I am suspicious of all reported deaths now. :P

Huh. Lehndorff trash talks a young Bredow, saying he's ugly and plays the Don Juan, and is in every respect an unpleasant mortal. Schmidt's note: "In the margin: Fifty years later he was my friend."

It is really cool to get these occasional perspectives with the benefit of hindsight.

Okay, that's all for now. Stay tuned for the next episode!

Edited Date: 2022-07-14 11:19 am (UTC)

From:

selenak

Detective Mildred, I think you're building the wrong case. Because Old Lehndorff, who ought to know whether his Marschall von B. died or did a runner, still says he died 4 decades later. Therefore, and because if he's a cousin of Lehndorff and du Rosey, he's old nobility, I say the son of Samuel Marschall can't be identical with Marschall von Bieberstein.

Okay, Lehndorff, you've built up the suspense. What is your new grief?

At a guess, it's the dawning realisation that he and Heinrich will never be exclusive, Heinrich won't be monogamous, and not only that, but while he's Heinrich's friend, he's not even his Big Favourite/Best Friend. In short, that Heinrich doesn't and won't feel for him what Lehndorff feels for Heinrich. Now if Heinrich had simply rejected him, that realisation might have come sooner, but Heinrich being on board with friends with benefits with a nature such as Lehndorff's was bound to awaken unrealistic hopes.

(Also, I wouldn't be surprised if his unevenness of their respective emotions became blindingly obvious to Heinrich at this point, what with Lehndorff's adoration radiating to the skies, and if he didn't deliberately try some distance now and then to signal "so far and not further, I like you, especially in this rotten first year of my unwanted marriage, sex now and then is fine, but my Chevalier de Lorraine, you're not".)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

By Jove, you're right! That does make more sense of the genealogy. But the only conclusion that I can draw is that Lehndorff's life does not adhere to Occam's Razor.

TWO cousins he's supposed to get a fortune from in the early 1750s but the fortune goes to a cousin of Hans Hermann instead.

TWO legation counselors from East Prussia named Friedrich von Marschall, one of whom dies in March 1753 and the other "dies" in March/April 1753.

At a guess, it's the dawning realisation that he and Heinrich will never be exclusive

*nod* That does make sense. Oh, Lehndorff.

From:

selenak

Okay, now that I'm browsing through volume 2 as well, let me point out the start of the October 1752 entry which says:

"During the entire month, speculation abouts regarding the whereabouts of Herr v. Marschall, who last year married the young Countess Podewils. He asks for permission to move to Heidelberg where he's a Dean, and from there he leaves to nobody knows where. People assume he's gone to France. He was a big cad. His wife comforts herself easily, since she didn't love him at all. Gossip hounds name Prince Ludwig as her adorer - very much wrongly so. Her hsuband leaves 30 000 Taler debts, in addition to the 15 000 which his mother gave him on the occasion of his marriage."

That's clearly Marschall the son of Samuel Marschall and NOT the same Marschall who is "my cousin" etc., not to mention that the entry where Lehndorff talks about his lost hope for the inheritance is January 26th 1753, i.e. months after Marschall the runner has already left the country!

Edited Date: 2022-07-14 06:59 pm (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Excellent detective work!

From:

cahn

At a guess, it's the dawning realisation that he and Heinrich will never be exclusive, Heinrich won't be monogamous, and not only that, but while he's Heinrich's friend, he's not even his Big Favourite/Best Friend. In short, that Heinrich doesn't and won't feel for him what Lehndorff feels for Heinrich. Now if Heinrich had simply rejected him, that realisation might have come sooner, but Heinrich being on board with friends with benefits with a nature such as Lehndorff's was bound to awaken unrealistic hopes.

<3 Like I said below, it's totally understandable from Heinrich's side! But sad for Lehndorff in any case.

(Also, I wouldn't be surprised if his unevenness of their respective emotions became blindingly obvious to Heinrich at this point, what with Lehndorff's adoration radiating to the skies, and if he didn't deliberately try some distance now and then to signal "so far and not further, I like you, especially in this rotten first year of my unwanted marriage, sex now and then is fine, but my Chevalier de Lorraine, you're not".)

That... makes a lot of sense. Ugh, unrequited love is hard.

From:

selenak

Ugh, unrequited love is hard.

Marcus Cole & Lennier: You're telling us!

From:

cahn

Aw, those two!

From:

cahn

Oh no, and now Heinrich is saying hard words to him! Like, "It's only been two days, stop suffocating me"?

Hee. But man, I wouldn't be surprised. I love Lehndorff a lot, and I love how constant he is in his affections, but I can see that this kind of sustained over-the-top adoration might have been hard to live with! Heinrich may not have had a good boyfriend picker, but I can see why Lehndorff wasn't the guy for him. I would have had trouble with that too, for sure. (Actually now that I think about it, my first boyfriend was kind of like that and... well, it didn't work out.)

(On the other hand, it's still aww-inducing and hilarious to read about at a remove of hundreds of years hence and I applaud Dr. Schmidt's readers yet again for asking for more.)

Maupertuis challenges Voltaire to a duel. Voltaire replies in a letter that makes everyone laugh and is even more biting than the Akakia.

Meh, it's not in the wiki collection of Voltaire's correspondence.

ahahaha hmm if it's not in his correspondence, where is it?? Or do you think that Lehndorff is reporting gossip that might not be really a thing?

Huh. Lehndorff trash talks a young Bredow, saying he's ugly and plays the Don Juan, and is in every respect an unpleasant mortal. Schmidt's note: "In the margin: Fifty years later he was my friend."

It is really cool to get these occasional perspectives with the benefit of hindsight.

Ah, yes, I love this!

From:

mildred_of_midgard

On the other hand, it's still aww-inducing and hilarious to read about at a remove of hundreds of years hence

It is!

ahahaha hmm if it's not in his correspondence, where is it??

Besterman, maybe? Or not extant. The wiki collection is a public domain work from 1880, and it's far from complete. As the editor himself says in the preface (Google-translated):

This is not, of course, to announce something definitive. We know only too well that an enormous quantity of letters still remains to be exhumed from public or private archives. Voltaire said to Formont, on July 24, 1734: “I will not go any further, because here, my dear friend, is the thirtieth letter that I am writing today. And of these thirty letters we only know two! “One will find, says M. Henri Beaune, letters from Voltaire up to the Last Judgment.” The expression is not Voltairian, but it is significant.

Many notable collections have escaped us; many bearers have not responded to our call, at least until today. But it is not possible in such a matter to claim ever to be complete.

ETA: In general, it's best, with any collection of published correspondence, to start from the assumption that it isn't complete, and then revise that assumption only if there's evidence that it is.

Edited Date: 2022-07-16 02:56 pm (UTC)

From:

cahn

Oh, if salon has taught me anything, it is about the easily-lost and incomplete nature of historical documents!

I was more saying, if a royal detective were to be looking for such a letter somewhere else other than the wiki collection, where would she look? :)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Ah, okay! I misunderstood, because I had said "it's not in this collection of his correspondence" and you said "if it's not in his correspondence," so I wanted to point out that it might very well be in his correspondence, just not this one (relatively) small collection!

So now that I understand what you're actually saying: Besterman is where this detective would look next. And I'm now reminded that the E-Enlightenment site used Besterman as their basis and continues to add new letters as they turn up.

Haha, I went to the E-enlightenment site just now, and saw their big news on the front page is: "62 new documents, including a newly discovered letter by Voltaire," and on the learn more page is "Voltaire letters continue to be discovered." Ha! "Up to the Last Judgment" indeed. ;)

Meh, I have the money again now, so I'm toying with the question of whether it's worth it, given that my research interests have shifted slightly. I might at some point. (Salon, so much like my life in microcosm, is an ever-shifting balance between "Do I have time?" and "Do I have money?")