18th-Century Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 34

[cahn]

And including Emperor Joseph II!

from Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 2: Against the World, 1780 - 1790:

Joseph's alleged comment to Mozart about the Entführung, "Too many notes", has been taken as evidence of his ignorance. But he probably said something like, "Too beautiful for our ears, and monstrous many notes." It is always necessary to bear in mind, when appraising the emperor's remarks, his peculiar brand of humor or sarcasm. He was usually getting at someone. And he did not use the royal "we". The ears in question were those of the Viennese audience, whom he was mocking for their limited appreciation of Mozart's elaborate music.

(though not gonna lie, I think it is a LOT of notes)

Comments

Disciplinary methods for royal children

[mildred_of_midgard]

you could make a case that FW's children are the outliers here, because coming to think about it, most later 17th and then 18th century princes and princesses were not spanked or beaten.

Through a coincidence of timing, my German reading in the last month has give me both an example of this generalization and a counterexample!

In a bio of Maria Carolina of Naples, the author told me that part of Spanish court etiquette (remember that Naples in this period is a Spanish secondogeniture, meaning it's ruled by the younger son of the Spanish king) was that the heir to the throne got a whipping boy. This was meant both to impress on the prince that his person was untouchable, and also that his subjects would pay for any of his misdeeds when he was king, so he should be a good king. (I have a feeling one of these lessons was learned a lot more readily than the other in most cases.)

These whipping boys were chosen from the lowest classes, and ugly, even handicapped children were chosen, so that when they weren't needed as whipping boys any more, they had a career waiting for them as court fools.

(Sigh.)

Ferdinand, who liked hanging out with the lower classes, became lifelong BFFs with his whipping boy, Gennaro. (It's not clear that he learned much about being a good king.)

But on the flip side, his contemporary and cousin, also named Ferdinand for extra confusion, the Duke of Parma*, was apparently brutally disciplined by his governors/tutors as a kid, getting yelled at and even hit and kicked. I read a whole monograph on his upbringing, which I will try to find time to summarize for salon, because I think you guys would find it interesting. (Spoiler: he didn't turn out the way his tutors wanted any more than Fritz turned out the way FW wanted; he just went *even more* in the opposite direction, while learning to be sneaky.)

* Younger brother of Isabella of Parma, future wife of Joseph II. She was his surrogate mother after their mom died, and apparently she had things to say about how being mean to your kids leads to them turning out bad, and being nice to them, which is currently out of fashion, would make them turn out much better. "Exhibit A: my brother" is probably the subtext, according to the author.

(If you're inclined to read it yourself while you wait for me to have time, it's 100 pages and it's the Elisabeth Badinter book, selenak.)

Re: Disciplinary methods for royal children

[selenak]

Ferdinand, who liked hanging out with the lower classes, became lifelong BFFs with his whipping boy, Gennaro. (It's not clear that he learned much about being a good king.)

Given Ferdinand's reign and the anecdote of him being asked in his old age to name a single good thing he did for his people, whereupon he was unable to name even one, I think it's safe to say he didn't learn anything. Re: whipping boy, famously the premise of Mark Twain's The Prince and the Pauper, and in fact I associate it not so much with the Spanish as with the Tudors and Stuarts, see also here, where the whipping boy of future Charles I. is identified as William Murray, apparantly also a later life long friend. Though as with Ferdinand, one can't help but conclude the practice did not teach young Charles how to be a good King. (Unless you're Tim Blanning or Henrietta Maria and convinced Charles I. was the best Stuart King ever.) Otoh, Murray got an earldom out of it, not a career as a court fool, so there was that.

ETA: Katte as FW's version of a whipping boy for Fritz, y/y?

Re: Disciplinary methods for royal children

[mildred_of_midgard]

Re: whipping boy, famously the premise of Mark Twain's The Prince and the Pauper

Yep, I'm incapable of hearing "whipping boy" without thinking of this.

ETA: Katte as FW's version of a whipping boy for Fritz, y/y?

Y. My abandoned WIP where he gets life imprisonment in exchange for Fritz's good behavior is called "Whipping Boy." :)