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cahnAnd including Emperor Joseph II!
from Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 2: Against the World, 1780 - 1790:
Joseph's alleged comment to Mozart about the Entführung, "Too many notes", has been taken as evidence of his ignorance. But he probably said something like, "Too beautiful for our ears, and monstrous many notes." It is always necessary to bear in mind, when appraising the emperor's remarks, his peculiar brand of humor or sarcasm. He was usually getting at someone. And he did not use the royal "we". The ears in question were those of the Viennese audience, whom he was mocking for their limited appreciation of Mozart's elaborate music.
(though not gonna lie, I think it is a LOT of notes)
from Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 2: Against the World, 1780 - 1790:
Joseph's alleged comment to Mozart about the Entführung, "Too many notes", has been taken as evidence of his ignorance. But he probably said something like, "Too beautiful for our ears, and monstrous many notes." It is always necessary to bear in mind, when appraising the emperor's remarks, his peculiar brand of humor or sarcasm. He was usually getting at someone. And he did not use the royal "we". The ears in question were those of the Viennese audience, whom he was mocking for their limited appreciation of Mozart's elaborate music.
(though not gonna lie, I think it is a LOT of notes)
Ekaterina and Massie: up to Peter III's death
Date: 2022-02-18 04:00 pm (UTC)-I meant to comment on this when I watched it a week ago and the last week has just been... a thing: In Ekaterina, not only do they go with the line that Paul is probably Saltykov's kid (Saltykov himself, btw, comes off in TV canon as a kind of sweet architecture nerd, which is definitely not the impression I got from Massie, who describes him more as an ambitious playboy) -- though they do keep it a bit intentionally obtuse whose kid Paul is -- but also they have Elizaveta hinting extremely heavily to Ekaterina that she wants her to have a kid and she doesn't care that much whose kid it is and she should just find a father for the kid already. That was the other "Plot twist I totally didn't expect!!" moment I had with the series, besides the "Now you, Razumovsky, are the heir!" moment.
-Per
-I guess I should go look up something else on Peter III so I can see a different account
not wholly based on the memoirs of his ex. Ekaterina may be nicer to him than Massie, but that... isn't saying much?-Though even Massie had to admit that Peter actually did try when he was tsar. I mean, for a value of "try" that means "rather more clueless than Vienna!Joe." And Ekaterina, similarly, has him becoming a little less, hm, immature than he was at the start of the series. (Though I felt like he looked exactly the same even after putatively aging almost twenty years, which was a bit offputting.)
-Now, the person who does come across much better in Ekaterina (besides Razumovsky) is Liza/Elizabeth Vorontsova. Massie doesn't say much about her, to be fair, just repeats various people who answer "hot or not?" with "definitely not." But in Ekaterina I thought they both made Liza likeable (if in a certain awkward way that showed why not everyone did like her) and showed why Peter might be attracted to her. (Though I thought the show also pushed the explanation that Peter was bound to dislike anyone his aunt pushed on him, which... well, does make sense to me, although it seems like there were a lot of other reasons.)
-Massie's description of Catherine's coup is really compelling and honestly a LOT more dramatic than Ekaterina's "so Ekaterina was sort of caught up by events and then whoops! now she's the empress of All Russia" take on it. And I wish they'd showed more of what Massie was saying because I think it would have made really exciting TV. But I think they were really bending over backwards to make Catherine a sympathetic protagonist and I think that meant they didn't want to show her nakedly plotting or ambitious. (Even though Massie's version didn't really have her planning for a very long time -- but yes, realizing what was in the wind and planning before an order was given for her to be arrested!)
-Massie thinks Catherine didn't know that Peter was going to be killed. I know enough to know I shouldn't trust him to tell me everything :P (I also thought it was hilarious that he cites Henry II/Becket, because, uh. I realize that like everything else it is probably More Complicated Than That, but making me think of that historical parallel doesn't incline me to trust that Catherine didn't know!)
-Razumovsky continues to be my favorite! His plotline at the very end where he burns the marriage certificate and the will is awesome.
But one thing the show gets right is that he didn't want to play the game of thrones, in which you win or you die.
Me: You are the only sane person on this show!
Re: Ekaterina and Massie: up to Peter III's death
Date: 2022-02-18 07:52 pm (UTC)Re: did Catherine know or didn‘t she - impossible to say. For what it‘s worth, there‘s the letter from Alexej Orlov to Catherine which Paul, no fan of his mother, took as proof she was, in fact, innocent and only learned about it after the fact. And the Dashkova memoirs make the same assumption - Dashkova - who was the sister of Voronzova - hated the Orlovs and thought they ruined the entire coup by killing Peter because until then Team Catherine had the moral upper hand.
Otoh: I think Catherine was quite clear on the fact that an imprisoned or exiled Peter was an albatros around her neck and a counter coup waiting to happen. The Henry II & Becket comparison isn‘t bad, in that Henry notoriously didn‘t give an explicit order, he just asked the infamous pointed question. And so I expect Catherine didn‘t say „kill him“ but knew it was enough to say something along the lines of „I guess I‘ll always be worried that one day I‘ll wake up and he‘s back, maybe with the Prussian army to back him up“, and someone would take the hint, and she‘d have plausible deniability.
Incidentally, Fritz to Luccessini (and a few of his other late life visitors) kept insisting Catherine had just been a puppet in the hands of the Orlovs, but that wasn‘t so much to clear her of the sin of killing her husband as it was him being miffed she was stealing his thunder as the enlightened despot Europe was half appalled, half fascinated by, and „woman in over her head with the men behind her calling the shots“ suited him better as an explanation.
Meanwhile, I‘ll remind you of contemporary Andrew Mitchell‘s estimation of the coup and the subsequent reversal of Peter‘s reputation:
I think it unnecessary to repeat the account he gave me of the late revolution, nor of the death of the Emperor, which happened the 17th July, on the road to Slusselburg—a fortress—where he was to be imprisoned, and which, it is said, was occasioned par une cholique hemeroidale, to which his Imperial Majesty was subject, but which was increased by his intemperance; nor shall I mention the reports which havecbeen spread of the Emperor's intention to poison his wife, and to marry his mistress the Countess Elizabeth Woronzow, who, it is said, is with child, for this unfortunate Prince is even charged with a design of altering the succession, in prejudice to his own son and in favour of this unborn child; all those reports, and many others not worth mentioning, seem to me highly improbable, and greatly exaggerated in order to justify the late revolution (for which a reason mustbe given to the people). His real crime was a contempt for the nation he was to govern, which he showed too openly on every occasion, and thereby made himself a number of enemies; add to this, infinite conceit of himself, imagining that he was capable to execute every project which Peter the Great had formed, and that by a servile imitation he was instantaneously to become as formidable a warrior as the King of Prussia, whom he had chose for his model. His bad conduct with regard to his wife, his natural weakness and levity and precipitation with which he acted in the most important affairs, afforded more than sufficient handles for his destruction, without supposing him either criminal or malicious, yet hints of this kind are thrown out by authority, but do not acquire thereby any degree of credibility.
Re: Ekaterina and Massie: up to Peter III's death
Date: 2022-02-22 05:59 am (UTC)as it was him being miffed she was stealing his thunder as the enlightened despot Europe was half appalled, half fascinated by, and „woman in over her head with the men behind her calling the shots“ suited him better as an explanation.
LOL! That sounds very Fritz.
Ah, thanks for reminding me of the Mitchell quote. Andrew Mitchell is so great <3
Re: Ekaterina and Massie: up to Peter III's death
Date: 2022-02-24 03:10 am (UTC)I'm just going to second everything
Re: Ekaterina and Massie: up to Peter III's death
Date: 2022-02-24 03:02 am (UTC)Same reaction I had!
-I guess I should go look up something else on Peter III so I can see a different account not wholly based on the memoirs of his ex. Ekaterina may be nicer to him than Massie, but that... isn't saying much?
As you know, I rec alley's write-ups on this! I think I would have had less sympathy toward Peter III in Ekaterina had I come to them cold without reading alley's interpretations.
But in Ekaterina I thought they both made Liza likeable (if in a certain awkward way that showed why not everyone did like her) and showed why Peter might be attracted to her.
Alley has a whole write-up on that too! Look for it if you're interested, I thought it was one of their most interesting write-ups. Made me ship them!
-Razumovsky continues to be my favorite! His plotline at the very end where he burns the marriage certificate and the will is awesome.
Same!
But one thing the show gets right is that he didn't want to play the game of thrones, in which you win or you die.
Me: You are the only sane person on this show!
Normally I go for the ruthless ones, but none of the ambitious characters pushed my buttons, so sane and well-written + well-acted Razumovsky got my vote for favorite in this show.
Re: Ekaterina and Massie: up to Peter III's death
Date: 2022-02-24 06:32 am (UTC)Normally I go for the ruthless ones, but none of the ambitious characters pushed my buttons, so sane and well-written + well-acted Razumovsky got my vote for favorite in this show.
He was well-written and well-acted! <3
I was/am really enjoying Catherine in Massie, so I think that there's something specifically about Ekaterina's Catherine that didn't appeal to me. (In fact, I think she wasn't ruthless enough in the show until the very end! Although at the end they did position her as knowing quite well she couldn't leave Peter -- or Ivan! -- alive, which I thought was interesting. And yes, I've now read to the bit in Massie where Ivan actually dies, but I thought it made a lot of thematic sense that they moved that up in the show.)
Re: Ekaterina and Massie: up to Peter III's death
Date: 2022-02-24 03:41 pm (UTC)Oh, interesting. I could see some of the differences alley pointed out and agreed with them. But I can see where you might not!
In fact, I think she wasn't ruthless enough in the show
Yeah, agreed. That was part of why I couldn't latch onto her, she did come across as too naive, in a way obviously meant not to risk losing audience sympathy, for me as well.
And yes, I've now read to the bit in Massie where Ivan actually dies, but I thought it made a lot of thematic sense that they moved that up in the show.)
Agreed. And it's awesome that you're reading this on your own! Saves me so much time explaining! :D (I do miss having the kind of time I did when I was writing several thousand words a day in salon, but I like mostly feeling better and also having more money and also being *this close* to being able to read in German. :D Hopefully once I can read German and don't have to spend 100% of my free time studying it, I can read and explain lots more things that I couldn't before!)
I was/am really enjoying Catherine in Massie, so I think that there's something specifically about Ekaterina's Catherine that didn't appeal to me.
Also, yes, same and same.