cahn

And including Emperor Joseph II!

from Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 2: Against the World, 1780 - 1790:

Joseph's alleged comment to Mozart about the Entführung, "Too many notes", has been taken as evidence of his ignorance. But he probably said something like, "Too beautiful for our ears, and monstrous many notes." It is always necessary to bear in mind, when appraising the emperor's remarks, his peculiar brand of humor or sarcasm. He was usually getting at someone. And he did not use the royal "we". The ears in question were those of the Viennese audience, whom he was mocking for their limited appreciation of Mozart's elaborate music.

(though not gonna lie, I think it is a LOT of notes)

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From:

selenak

Now, about the bonkers conspiracy theory book "Mozart and his Emperors". It came on my radar when I searched for Leopold biographies at the Stabi, and I thought, why not? And here's what our good author wants to sell:

- Leopold died a few weeks after Mozart; COINCIDENCE? not so! Both were murdered by their doctors at the behest of some Viennese aristos

- after Maria Christina showed Isabella's letters to Joseph, he started his demonic revenge quest to destroy the female sex by seducing and leaving them; he didn't even shy away from incest or almost incest, since he all but seduced Marie Antoinette when visiting Paris (proof: his later "would have totally married her if not my sister" comment, and Austrian envoy Mercy's report to MT about how galant and kind Joseph treated his sister) and surely seduced Elisabeth von Würtemberg as well (why else would she have been the favorite relation of his later years?)

- in case you didn't guess it now, Almaviva and Don Giovanni = both portraits of Joseph, whose list of conquests included both Constanze (= Zerlinetta) and her older sister Aloysia Weber (= Dona Anna; the Komtur is their father Fridolin, not Leopold Mozart) (proof for Joseph having a go at either woman: for Aloysia, the fact she was one of the main singers in Vienna, and Joseph with his interest in the theatre and opera and his ruthless womanzing ways therefore would have wanted her, and Constanze, well, there's that one Mozart letter from when they are engaged where he's upset with her joining in the tigh-measuring game, but that's all cryptic talk, because what really happened was clearly Joseph summoning her to him at the Hofburg

- Mozart first tried to avenge himself for the seduction of Constanze via Figaro's Wedding, but Joseph either didn't get it or didn't mind, he even had the opera performed repeatedly, so Mozart composed Don Giovanni to really bring the point home, and all of Vienna understood that Giovanni = Joseph

- why isn't a single reference to this in anyone's letters, memoirs etc? Because the contemporaries were THAT shocked by Mozart's audacity! Also, Mozart despite being on the musical revenge path did foresee one positive quality of Joseph's in the midst of all the bad, namely, that he faced his death without fear (Don Giovanni doesn't show fear, either)

- why does Lorenzo da Ponte, who wrote the libretti for both Figaro and Giovanni, not mention any of this in his memoirs, written decades later (and in the US, thus without having to fear any Habsburg retaliation), and on the contrary has a lot of praise in said memoirs for Joseph (and in fact writes way more about Joseph and Salieri than he writes about Mozart)? Because da Ponte clearly was an idiot. Mozart didn't tell him who was truly meant by Almaviva and Giovanni, and must have rewritten the libretto or inserted lines!

- Leopold was the ideal reformer, see Tuscany, and would have changed Austria and the HRE into a large scale Tuscany, which is why some nobles, fearing he would take all their privileges away, struck first; aided and abetted by a very old Kaunitz, who didn't forgive Leopold for firing him, err, accepting his resignation, and for allying with the Prussians

- Leopold = Tito in La Clemenza di Tito, obviously, and look! Mozart was already alert to Leopold assassination plots, carried out by supposed friends, as proven in this libretto (which he didn't write, but the librettists for Tito were just like da Ponte, clearly) , and so HE TOO HAD TO DIE!

Edited Date: 2022-02-12 02:09 pm (UTC)

From:

cahn

This is so bonkers it has crossed the line to where I am totally delighted by it and feel like someone should write a story (or, like, best-selling play would be fine!) about it :D

Leopold died a few weeks after Mozart; COINCIDENCE? not so! Both were murdered by their doctors at the behest of some Viennese aristos

I cannot believe this is even not the most crack part of this book but it's not. By a long shot. Wow.

he started his demonic revenge quest to destroy the female sex

what

n case you didn't guess it now, Almaviva and Don Giovanni = both portraits of Joseph

well I guess that... does follow... from the previous premise...

whose list of conquests included both Constanze (= Zerlinetta)

...but this is a whole new jump of awesomecrack, wow!

Mozart first tried to avenge himself for the seduction of Constanze via Figaro's Wedding, but Joseph either didn't get it or didn't mind, he even had the opera performed repeatedly, so Mozart composed Don Giovanni to really bring the point home, and all of Vienna understood that Giovanni = Joseph

This is hilarious, omg

Because the contemporaries were THAT shocked by Mozart's audacity!

I gotta love this approach to history. Next time I write up any history, that's totally the excuse I'm going to give for getting anything wrong :D It was totally a thing, it's not in the historical record because people were just too shocked to write anything down about it! Because that's totally how people work!

In conclusion, thank you so much for reading this book and sharing this completely-on-Mars theory! :D

From:

selenak

This is so bonkers it has crossed the line to where I am totally delighted by it

I knew you'd react this way. :) And I didn't even mention how de Roos on the one hand keeps saying that his contemporaries weren't able to understand Mozart properly, but WE CAN, only now has the time for true Mozart understanding arrived, or how Die Entführung aus dem Serail was an earnest attempt to plead the cause of the Turks and shame Joseph from joining Catherine's war against them. Because Bassa Selim, you know.

Incidentally, if you're wondering, the doctors didn't murder Leopold and Mozart via poison but via bloodletting. Leopold was bled four times, Mozart too. COINCIDENCE?!!!!

(Sidenote: that was probably the most sense-making part of the book, in that I'm sure blood letting contributed to both Leopold's and Mozart's demise since when did that ever help anyone, but to assume 18th century doctors would know that is... something.)

Joseph/Constanze: the one pairing Amadeus fandom (nor any other Mozart fiction fandom) came up with! Or with Mozarts musical Roaring RAMPAGE OF REVENGE as a result. How could we not have seen the Giovanni = ViennaJoe identity all along!

I gotta love this approach to history.

Quite. There's nothing to confirm or even hint at this in the sources? It must be because everyone was too shocked!

But the operas themselves PROVE IT, you now. Also Leopold writing in his Italian-language "why Joseph sucks!" diatribe that Joseph is using prostitutes and that he must have had every woman in Vienna. Clearly, he meant this literally, and as in, EVERY WOMAN. (I kid you not, de Roos really thinks Joseph had sex on a Don Giovanni scale with everything female with a pulse.)

You also have to love how our author on the one hand amply quotes from the Lorenzo da Ponte libretti in order to prove that these lines are both masterful in themselves and in what they really insinuate for those in the know, and otoh always declares da Ponte was an idiot who didn't have a clue what the operas were actually about and that Mozart clearly beta'd his libretti.

(Da Ponte absolutely had an ego of gigantic proportions. (And a chip on his shoulder, but if you were born into a Jewish family in Italy and had to convert and adopt a new name before getting aywhere, you would, too.) But I haven't seen any one else classifying him as a clueless idiot before. He usually get called the one genius level librettist Mozart had.)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Incidentally, if you're wondering, the doctors didn't murder Leopold and Mozart via poison but via bloodletting. Leopold was bled four times, Mozart too. COINCIDENCE?!!!!

(Sidenote: that was probably the most sense-making part of the book, in that I'm sure blood letting contributed to both Leopold's and Mozart's demise since when did that ever help anyone, but to assume 18th century doctors would know that is... something.)

I have to say, I was impressed when Massie told me that Johanna, mother of Catherine the Great, was convinced bloodletting would kill you and refused to allow herself to be bled. I forget the details, but I think she had lost a sister young and blamed the excessive bloodletting?

Anyway, awful mother and mother-in-law or no, she was (if Massie is to be believed) ahead of her time in this respect!

From:

cahn

but to assume 18th century doctors would know that is... something.

...I am kiiiinda now wanting one of those deep worldwide conspiracy books where the whole bloodletting thing turns out to be a doctor conspiracy to kill the particular royalty that they don't want for whatever reason, because uh it would be a lot of people.

Joseph/Constanze: the one pairing Amadeus fandom (nor any other Mozart fiction fandom) came up with! Or with Mozarts musical Roaring RAMPAGE OF REVENGE as a result. How could we not have seen the Giovanni = ViennaJoe identity all along!

I am still just THIS IS ALL THE MOST HILARIOUS about all of this :DDDDD How indeed could we not have seen it! It's right there in the name!!

But the operas themselves PROVE IT, you now. Also Leopold writing in his Italian-language "why Joseph sucks!" diatribe that Joseph is using prostitutes and that he must have had every woman in Vienna. Clearly, he meant this literally, and as in, EVERY WOMAN.

I mean, yeah, indeed, what can I say against PROOF BY OPERA!

From:

selenak

I am kiiiinda now wanting one of those deep worldwide conspiracy books where the whole bloodletting thing turns out to be a doctor conspiracy to kill the particular royalty that they don't want for whatever reason, because uh it would be a lot of people.

LOL. Well, quite. Btw, Elisabeth Augusta, a Palatinate princess who had a hot affair with her Wittelsbach brother-in-law Clemens Franz (two names no 18th century Protestant prince will ever have), advises him in one letter under no circumstances to let the doctors bleed either her sister (whom he was married to) or himself, so I take it back, it was definitely an opinion to have in the 18th century. (The letters are the ones I linked Mildred to elsewhere.) (BTW, she married the year after Fritz came to the throne, so was a contemporary, and her letters get pretty explicit, including telling her lover/brother-in-law to kiss Nani (her sister) on the buttocks for her, and making references to anal sex. Editor thinks Elisabeth Augusta had anal sex with Clemens Franz as a way to ensure she wouldn't get pregnant, but has no ocmment to "kiss my sister on on her strong buttocks for me".)

What about non-royalty killed by bloodletting, though? Famously, Byron, who might have survived malaria at Missolonghi but who definitely could not survive all the blood they drained from him. How would the conspiracy theory apply? I mean, if this had happened elsewhere, I'd have said Byron had made enough enemies for some of them to have bribed the doctors, but he actually was at his best in Greece and keeping everyone else's tempers from colliding for a change...

From:

cahn

Wow, I'm always fascinated by the differences in eras in this respect when you talk about it! I mean, I guess there's sexting and so on these days, so maybe it's just that letter-writing is seen as much more formal nowadays.

What about non-royalty killed by bloodletting, though?

Oh, see, this would be collateral damage -- they know they have to bloodlet some other people besides royals to throw people off the scent! Including some famous ones! Or, alternatively, maybe there's time travel conspiracy going on and the Future knows Byron must die!! (though okay, the problem with this theory is that it's not really clear why the Future would think that...)