18th-Century Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 34

[cahn]

And including Emperor Joseph II!

from Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 2: Against the World, 1780 - 1790:

Joseph's alleged comment to Mozart about the Entführung, "Too many notes", has been taken as evidence of his ignorance. But he probably said something like, "Too beautiful for our ears, and monstrous many notes." It is always necessary to bear in mind, when appraising the emperor's remarks, his peculiar brand of humor or sarcasm. He was usually getting at someone. And he did not use the royal "we". The ears in question were those of the Viennese audience, whom he was mocking for their limited appreciation of Mozart's elaborate music.

(though not gonna lie, I think it is a LOT of notes)

Comments

Re: Catherine the Great (Massie) - Ch 1-7

[mildred_of_midgard]

I have a few spare minutes while waiting on something else, so here goes.

This is why I always say Massie is only of middling accuracy! What he can do is A+ readability.

...I mean, presumably one of you told me that Catherine's memoirs contained a description of her teenage masturbation, but somehow I forgot?? This was a different age, for sure! :P :D

I don't think we did, but funnily enough, it's one of the things that stuck with me 20 years after last reading about her. Did I remember who on earth Potemkin was? No. Did I remember her teenage masturbation? I sure did! :P

Romance with Uncle George: I always thought this was creepy; Massie seems to think it was just one of those things, unremarkable except that if she'd married him she wouldn't have become Catherine the Great.

Ugh, yes, I was turned off by his presentation of it as a charming little love affair in which she seduced him. Um. MASSIE NO.

Also, is Massie implying that Fritz also played the violin and harpsichord

I don't have time to check, but I've definitely read (maybe in Asprey) that young!Fritz was trained on a few instruments before settling on the flute as his One True Passion. I do remember an instrument with a keyboard being one of them, which might be the harpsichord. This makes sense to me, both in terms of baroque education and in terms of--don't people often try out more than one instrument before finding the one they love? (I mean, assuming money's not the object, which it wouldn't have been in Fritz's case, only FW-free time.)

Anyway, for once, I don't think Massie made this one up.

ETA: MacDonogh quotes Franz Benda saying Fritz "graciously accompanied me himself on the piano. With that I entered his service."

Benda was a Europe-famous violinist whom Fritz acquired in 1734 and who stayed with him until his death in 1786. So if he thinks Fritz has at least basic competency on the piano, he's probably not confusing him with someone else from long ago!

Ah, yes, MacDonogh, not Asprey, is the one who says, "Pesne was called in to give the child drawing lessons, and he was allowed to start learning the piano, violin, and flute at five." No citation this time. But I'm willing to believe Fritz at least tried his hand on them at Ruppin and Rheinsberg, even if the flute was his one true love.

Of course, as the next paragraph points out, by the time Fritz was 7, FW was leaving him very little time for anything outside of FW-approved lessons. Or as MacDonogh puts it, "Two years later, Frederick's study plan makes very sad reading indeed." :(

Ah -- this incident of Sophia getting pneunomia was what was turned into the poisoning in Ekaterina (and I assume smooshed with the Lestocq affair, which I haven't gotten to yet).

Yes, this. This is why I wanted you to read Massie, so I don't have to explain!

On that note, alas, I will have to leave you hanging without an explanation of French foreign policy in the mid-1740s. Maybe this weekend!

Re: Catherine the Great (Massie) - Ch 1-7

[cahn]

Ha, the funny thing is that I was an extremely sheltered teenager/young adult, and if I'd read that passage then, there's even odds I wouldn't have known what it was aiming at :)

young!Fritz was trained on a few instruments before settling on the flute as his One True Passion.

Yeah, makes sense to me. Although I guess I was thinking that if FW was so set against his being into music, I wasn't quite sure how he managed to train on several of them -- but maybe that was SD's influence?

Re: Catherine the Great (Massie) - Ch 1-7

[mildred_of_midgard]

Ha, the funny thing is that I was an extremely sheltered teenager/young adult, and if I'd read that passage then, there's even odds I wouldn't have known what it was aiming at :)

Same, but I'm pretty sure the biography I read was kind enough to describe it as "pent-up sexual energy" or some such.

Yeah, makes sense to me. Although I guess I was thinking that if FW was so set against his being into music, I wasn't quite sure how he managed to train on several of them -- but maybe that was SD's influence?

I originally wondered about that too, but the timing makes sense to me. Boys were kept in the care of the women (mother and governess(es)) until they were seven. Now, FW certainly had opinions on how he wanted Fritz raised, and SD was certainly making him practice firing cannons and shooting pistols and what-not, but SD and Madame de Roucoulles would have had more elbow room until Fritz was seven, or such is my understanding.

Starting at age 7, FW was micromanaging Fritz's schedule such that he had only 7 minutes for breakfast (part of why MacDonogh says it's such sad reading), and no time for violins, pianos, or flutes. Then at 16/17, he's having to sneak in lessons with Quantz. Then it makes perfect sense to me that in his twenties, when he had some free time again, he started giving all his old instruments another chance. Granted I don't have a primary source, but MacDonogh is at least claiming to be quoting a primary source that isn't Thiebault, but someone who was actually there and would have been qualified to know.