cahn | 18th-Century Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 34

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And including Emperor Joseph II!

from Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 2: Against the World, 1780 - 1790:

Joseph's alleged comment to Mozart about the Entführung, "Too many notes", has been taken as evidence of his ignorance. But he probably said something like, "Too beautiful for our ears, and monstrous many notes." It is always necessary to bear in mind, when appraising the emperor's remarks, his peculiar brand of humor or sarcasm. He was usually getting at someone. And he did not use the royal "we". The ears in question were those of the Viennese audience, whom he was mocking for their limited appreciation of Mozart's elaborate music.

(though not gonna lie, I think it is a LOT of notes)

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From:

selenak

My memory of various sources I've read was that Louis was funding Rakoczi for exactly this reason (think funding Jacobites when fighting England), so I think that's real. And they definitely tried to woo the Prussians a few years later, by sending Rottembourg (with permission to bribe Grumbkow and Ilgen), so this is also plausible, I agree.

Yeah, I think we can see how Klement's con man career evolved. Let's say he did work for Racoczky, though possibly not as his right hand man, but still high enough to know R. got funded by Louis and that there were also French attempts to move the Prussians from Team Austria to Team France. When he gets himself hired by Eugene, he relays that intel, but he thinks he needs to spice it up a little since it's not something Eugene couldn't have figured out on his own (I mean, since it makes so much sense Louis would pursue those policies). So he adds the story of an offer of the Hungarian Crown to Prussia, complete with the Crown Prince pretending to escape in order to come to Hungary to get crowned and ruled. This is not something anyone could have figured out, it's new, and it gets him interest. And from this point onwards, his stories get more and more adventurous.

Wait, though, this is ringing some faint bell. Have we heard this story before? Or am I thinking of a different secret treaty? Maybe one with Austria that future F1 agreed to when he was crown prince?

Yep, the later, the one people held against F1, calling him "weak" for it, whereas the F1 defending biographers of the last decades pointed out his Dad agreed to a similar secret treaty with Louis of all the people (which even involved making Louis, Catholic Superpower Absolutist extraordinaire, executor of his will).

So there was definitely talk of sending Eugene to the Spanish front as a *general*, which Eugene did not want, but king??? Neither the Habsburgs nor the Bourbons would have stood for this!

No kidding, and Eugene knew that. He also never showed ambitions of wanting to rule any fiefdom, and notably did NOT try to marry into either the Habsburgs or another powerful and influential family. But Weber says that Klement in his made up reports basically wrote Eugene as Wallenstein. (

cahn, Wallenstein was the most powerful and famous 30 Years War general on the Catholic side, ultimately so powerful that the Emperor licensed his assassination. Schiller wrote a trilogy of plays about him.) Which, if you are a contemporary who doesn't know Eugene but vaguely knowns some history, probably works.

The female mooor who whose clothes Bube the secretary borrowed is referred to by Weber as "die Mohrin der Markgräfin Philippine" - I didn't have time to look it up, but is Philippine Mrs. Wartensleben or are we talking about one of the Schwedt wives?

ETA: also, check out how much of the files on Klement from the Secret Prussian State Archive survive! Wow. Lots of material still there.

Edited Date: 2022-02-02 09:08 am (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

is Philippine Mrs. Wartensleben or are we talking about one of the Schwedt wives?

The latter, apparently, but I can't easily find which one, and like you, I have no time. (I am now again waiting on a script to finish running before I can resume work.)

ETA: I can't find a wife named Philippine or Philippe, but the late Margrave at this date was Philip. Wilhelmine calls his wife the "margravine Philippe" or "margravine Philippine" (depending on your translation, I really don't have time to check out the French). Is it possible that she and Weber are doing the equivalent of "the Princess Heinrich"? I.e. it's actually Philip's widow Johanna Charlotte?

ETA: also, check out how much of the files on Klement from the Secret Prussian State Archive survive! Wow. Lots of material still there.

Wow, yes! And those would have been closed to Weber, right? Only special people, like Preuss, got access?

Edited Date: 2022-02-03 02:53 am (UTC)

From:

selenak

Yes, that's correct. He's using the Saxon archive, but not the Prussian one.

Is it possible that she and Weber are doing the equivalent of "the Princess Heinrich"?

By Jove, I think you've got it. Yes, that makes sense.