18th-Century Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 33

[cahn]

And, I mean, it doesn't have to be just 18th century characters, either!

(also, waiting for Yuletide!)

Comments

Re: Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 2: Against the World, 1780 - 1790 - A

[mildred_of_midgard]

My work deadline got extended late last night, yay, so I have a little more time than expected for salon this week.

But, says Beales, Peter and FW worked with their nobles.

Yeah, I can see that. I mean, I'm still surprised Peter pulled off what he did, because he didn't exactly cater to his nobles, but he wasn't opposed to the idea of nobles. And I guess "yay serfdom" does count as catering.

Joseph does come across as the child MT and Fritz never had in his flaws, but also virtues.

Never thought of it that way, but what a great way to put it!

(something neither Catherine or Fritz managed in their territories)

cahn: note that they both made an effort, with all the enlightenment discourse about same, but backed off pretty quickly because they needed the support of the nobility. Catherine in large part because her grip on power was rather shaky, Fritz because he'd killed off half his nobles in the Seven Years' War insisting they be front-line officers. Well, Fritz really because he'd started with the a priori belief that the nobility of the sword made the best servants of the state, and then structured his approach to rule around keeping the support of the nobility.

Joseph, on the other hand, was like, "I don't need no stinkin' nobles!"

(How do we know? The young priest would later become Pope himself.

Ha. Which pope was this?

Ultra tragicallly, she would die in childbirth three days before Joseph died himself. He ordered she was to be buried as his first wife Isabella had been, and her new baby to be baptized as his dead daughter had been and in her baptism robe. That the biggest tragedies of his life should thus repeat themselves while he was painfully dying is just extra awful.

Ooof, yes. :(

Now, there were understandable reasons; the Hungarian nobles had always insisted on keeping their serfs, for example, and unless you were willing to subordinate the Hungarian contitution to the new Austrian law, this would not change. But it was still a wholesale disaster that in the end resulted in rebellions in both Hungary and Belgium.

Didn't...remind me, didn't Joseph write some Realpolitik memorandum about how if he had his way, he would ask the Hungarians for 10 years to make changes, and then make laws that they didn't like and possibly had agreed not to make, on the grounds that it was for their own good?

Yeah, that's one way to win Hungarian hearts.

Oh, lololol. That letter starts out so promising, and then he shoots himself in the foot with the increasing sarcasm. Yeah, I can see why MT was like, "Look, Fritz is not your role model, you're going to alienate everyone!"

Leopold, btw, was a fan of the Hungarian constitution, not for the serf factor but for a general liking of constitutionalism.

Someone I was reading recently--I can't remember if it was Beales--was casting Leopold's interest in constitutionalism as lip service, since the Tuscans never actually got a constitution out of him. Thoughts? Of course, we all have yet read any Leopold bios.

one of the conditions was that secundogeniture should apply, i.e. Tuscany would be inherited by FS's second son, not his first born, to ensure Tuscany would not become part of the Empire

As I recall, that was the one political point that Gian Gastone actually stood firm on, at least according to the less-than-trustworthy Acton, I think.

Leopold, who has lived in Tuscany for decades now and is aware of local feeling: Head. Desk.

Yeah, there was a lot of that on Leopold's part (as you mention in the next installment).