cahn | Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 30

In which, despite the title, I would like to be told about the English Revolution, which is yet another casualty of my extremely poor history education :P :)

Also, this is probably the place to say that RMSE opened with three Fritz-fics, all of which I think are readable with minimum canon knowledge:

The Boy Who Lived - if you knew about the doomed escape-from-Prussia-that-didn't happen and tragic death of Fritz's boyfriend Hans Hermann von Katte, you may not have known about Peter Keith, the third young man who conspired to escape Prussia -- and the only one who actually did. This is his story. I think readable without canon knowledge except what I just said here.

Challenge Yourself to Relax - My gift, I posted about this before! Corporate AU with my problematic fave, Fritz' brother Heinrich, who's still Fritz's l'autre moi-meme even in corporate AU. Readable without canon knowledge if one has familiarity with the corporate world and the dysfunctions thereof.

The Rise and Fall of the RendezvousWithFame Exchange - Fandom AU with BNF fanfic writer Voltaire, exchange mod Fritz, and the inevitable meltdown. (I wrote this one and am quite proud of the terrible physics-adjacent pun contained within.) Readable without canon knowledge if one has familiarity with fandom and the dysfunctions thereof :P

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

felis

Well, it's not like the Maupertuis story contradicts the Schwerin part anyway. I'm also not entirely sure if Envoy Robinson was actually there when Maupertuis told it, or if he got a second hand account from Liechtenstein. And I totally forgot that Austria and England were allied at that point, which does colour things indeed. Also, if the part about Maupertuis' bad horse is true, I could easily imagine that maybe it wasn't a direct quote but a Fritzian attitude Mauptertuis perceived and phrased somewhat pithily. As in: "I was stuck on this shitty horse and got captured while he got away on his much better one." Don't recall the Maupertuis side-eyeing you mention, but I probably wasn't around yet for that.

Koser lists a whole bunch of primary sources for the battle here, both Prussian and Austrian, and two main accounts for the Schwerin part are Schwerin himself (Volz has him as the actual author of an account in the Spiegel, whereas Koser makes it sound like Schwerin's words were recorded by people in his circle, but either way, it goes back to him) and Möllendorf, the later field marshall, who was a Fritz page at the time and wrote about it to Nicolai later.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Well, it's not like the Maupertuis story contradicts the Schwerin part anyway.

Not plot-wise, but character-wise it's a bit difficult to reconcile the two.

I'm also not entirely sure if Envoy Robinson was actually there when Maupertuis told it, or if he got a second hand account from Liechtenstein.

It sooounds like a secondhand account, but it's hard to tell.

And I totally forgot that Austria and England were allied at that point, which does colour things indeed.

I couldn't remember exactly when they became formally allied, which is why I wrote "or about to be." Asprey would have me believe they became formally allied 2 months later, after they attempted, unsuccessfully, to mediate between Austria and Prussia.

I could easily imagine that maybe it wasn't a direct quote but a Fritzian attitude Mauptertuis perceived and phrased somewhat pithily. As in: "I was stuck on this shitty horse and got captured while he got away on his much better one."

Now that could *easily* have happened! Maupertuis was, as I recall, *very* upset with Fritz over the capture (following several months of neglect after he'd been promised an Academy presidency), and refused to return to Berlin for years.

Koser: Thank you!

From:

selenak

Absolutely terrific detecting! As to what actually happened at Mollwitz, Koser‘s multiple sources look pretty solid. However, if Maupertuis was Goldstone‘s source (indirectly, she probalbly had it from the earlier book Felis found), one can‘t accuse her of having fallen for a Voltairian slight, as I instinctively did - Maupertuis, whatever his attitude, had been present at Mollwitz, after all, had been part of the Prussian contingent and thus counts as a primary source.

However, we did indeed side-eye his account of his own Austrian adventures before, or rather I did, when writing up Terrell‘s Maupertuis biography. Reminder, Maupertuis got captured,languished a few days as an unidentified POW until Count Neippberg recognized him, at which point according to Maupertuis he was apologized to, and brought to the court in Vienna where he was personally received by MT and FS and made much of. (Are you listening, Fritz?) To quote from the write up:

I have to say, his story about his reception at Vienna, which is partly in the main text and partly in a footnote, would have deserved some authorial scepticism from Terrall. I can buy FS gave him a golden watch to compensate him from the one stolen from him in the scuffle of him getting taken prisoner, but the supposed dialogue with MT about who's the most beautiful Queen of them all really defies belief.)

Without looking up the Terrell biography again, as far as I recall Maupertuis said MT asked him whether Elisabeth Christine was more beautiful than her, and Maupertuis reassured her gallantly on that front.

Edited Date: 2021-09-25 04:29 am (UTC)

From:

felis

(indirectly, she probalbly had it from the earlier book Felis found)

I had a look at google and I think she got it from Mahan indeed, which is the book Cahn found, and which would make sense to read as a source on MT. Because Mahan actually has a typo in the quote and she copied it: he says "better mounted than you are" instead "you all", which is what is in Mahan's source Coxe, i.e. the Robinson letter.

Also, I'm unclear on who the quote was supposed to be directed at in Goldstone's version. Because I found a couple of German sources and those all take it as him allegedly talking to the Austrian Hussars who had occupied Oppeln and were trying to chase him, not his own companions.

Speaking of Robinson, he was one of the people sent to negotiate a peace with Fritz a couple months later, and Fritz really really did not like him. In a letter to Podewils from September, he calls him a scoundrel and tells Podewils to chase him away: If he stays another 24 hours in Breslau, I'll have a stroke. [...] If I meet him on the way, I'll scratch out his eyes [devisager].

And from the Histoire:

The English minister, Robinson, who resided in Vienna, argued that the King of Prussia deserved to be excommunicated in politics. [...]
This Robinson, taking the tone of haughtiness, told the King that the Queen was kind enough to forget the past; that she offered him Limburg, Spanish Gelderland, and two million crowns, as compensation for his claims on Silesia, on condition that he made peace, and that his troops evacuate this duchy without delay. This minister was a sort of madman, enthusiastic about the Queen of Hungary; he negotiated with the emphasis he would have for harangues in the lower house. The King, rather inclined to grasp the ridiculous, adopted the same tone, and replied [... with a rousing speech about honor and his Protestant citizens in Silesia :P]. Robinson was stunned by this speech, which he did not expect. He left to take it to Vienna.

I am so amused. Also, Jordan reports on Robinson's arrival in Breslau and all the diplomatic shenanigans - and calls Fritz a coquette:

Robinson arrived yesterday. He surprised both adults and children of the city by his arrival; the ideas of peace are awakening. What charms me is that all this contributes to the glory of V. M.

This dreaded Prussian king
Acts as a coquette;
All aspire to his conquest,
And he does not restrict himself on anything.

The Frenchman looks a bit cowardly, but biting; the mylord is jolly; the Dutchman is enraged, and says that this trip is made in vain, that the happy negotiator has nothing but poverty to offer. Pöllnitz was struggling with the Hanoverian yesterday. The latter said: The King my master will soon appear in all his glory. The other, with a caustic air, retorts: It will probably be when he goes to the next world to judge the dead.

:D

MT asked him whether Elisabeth Christine was more beautiful than her, and Maupertuis reassured her gallantly on that front

Ooookay then. I can see why the side-eye!

From:

mildred_of_midgard

he says "better mounted than you are" instead "you all", which is what is in Mahan's source Coxe, i.e. the Robinson letter.

Aaahhh, good catch!

Also, I'm unclear on who the quote was supposed to be directed at in Goldstone's version. Because I found a couple of German sources and those all take it as him allegedly talking to the Austrian Hussars who had occupied Oppeln and were trying to chase him, not his own companions.

Goldstone:

No sooner did he witness the violent charge of the Austrian cavalry than he turned tail and fled. As his horse was acknowledged to be the fastest in the Prussian cavalry, he shouted back over his shoulder at the men for whom he was responsible, and whom he was deserting in their hour of need, "Farewell, friends, I am better mounted than you are!"

So that is how I was primed to read the letter you found (especially since the lead-in was Maupertuis talking about his less fast horse). And that's why I said the characterization was strange: if the guy who reluctantly had to be talked into leaving the field because he was putting himself in danger (without doing the right things to win the battle) started mocking his companions that he was better at escaping than they were...that struck me as "Well, does he feel bad about leaivng his men to danger or not?"

BUT. If he was actually mocking the hussars, then that is 100% a thing I could see Fritz doing. This is the guy who showed up at the Austrian headquarters after Leuthen and went, "Hello, gentlemen. I know you weren't expecting to see me today."

Also, Fritz taunting the person he's trying to escape from was a thing; he was taunting FW circa August 5, 1730 about how he could totally be in France now if he wanted to. I think his fight-or-flight instinct was geared hard toward fight, not flight, and so running away, even when he did it, went so much against the grain that he had to do at least some verbal fighting.

Aaand, I can also totally see how if Fritz was taunting the hussars, and Maupertuis, who was captured because of his slower horse, overheard this remark, would resent it hard, even if he knew it was aimed at the hussars. Though rereading that letter, I still can't tell whether Maupertuis thought it was aimed at him or at the hussars. I could see either interpretation. And I could totally see Maupertuis taking it as aimed at him even if it wasn't. Especially if right at that moment he was worried for his safety and cursing his slow horse.

Anyway, you are awesome, thank you.

Unrelated topic, since we're here, one thing I've been wondering about for a long time is where the name Robert Keith for Peter's younger brother, page who confessed to FW, came from. It's in Wikipedia, and Wikipedia is getting it from MacDonogh, but I can't trace it further back than MacDonogh. MacDonogh may have made the mistake himself, I don't know, but if you run into it in a pre-1999 source, I would be super interested.

(I have a particular interest in this one because I told raven_aorla (author of the Fritz-as-mob-boss AU) that the brother was named Robert, and while it's fine that she put that in her fic (gotta call him something), her author's notes say that Mildred said the historical person was named Robert!)

From:

felis

Oh, wow. That is some confidently biased tale by Goldstone, which can't be derived from the Robinson letter at all - but taking another look at Mahan, I see that she got that take mostly from him, although she made it look worse and doesn't mention the Schwerin part (?), which Mahan does include. Mahan totally misrepresents Coxe/Robinson, though, since neither Arneth nor Carlyle - his other two sources in the footnote - say anything of the sort.

Looking at Carlyle, I see that he does not believe Maupertuis, though! That's probably why he doesn't give the quote - he thinks Maupertuis made himself bigger by saying he was with the King's suite when he wasn't, and refers to Robinson calling it a "blind story" as evidence - which I think must be the "blind account" Robinson mentions, and which Carlyle misinterprets IMO, because I think Robinson means that Maupertuis did not give any details the first time around, not that he told a fairytale. (Carlyle also calls Fritz' whole adventure his "Disappearance into Fairy-land", because there were so many fables being told about it, ha.)

Otherwise, I'm totally with you re: Fritz taunting the hussars and the lack of clarity in the Robinson letter / Maupertuis' tale and why Maupertuis might have taken it differently than intended.

re: Robert Keith - I sorted out the three different Robert Keiths a while ago, but I don't remember if I came across the wrong younger brother one in that context. Will try to keep in mind that you are looking for a pre-1999 instance, though.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Oh, wow. That is some confidently biased tale by Goldstone

Why do you think we're getting so salty about her, lol! This is the one where

cahn was like, "Even *I* know how whacked that is!" and I was like, "Is there a point to reading this book?"

Here's what Goldstone goes on to say about Schwerin's role in all this:

By rights, that should have been the end of any future dreams of glory the Prussian king was harboring, but fortunately for Frederick, his soldiers did not have the same option. His general knew quite well that if he abandoned his post as his sovereign had, he would be executed for treason. Also, he had faith in his infantry.

Schwerin talk Fritz into leaving? Never! Schwerin was innocently abandoned by his cowardly monarch, who had never seen combat before.

and refers to Robinson calling it a "blind story" as evidence - which I think must be the "blind account" Robinson mentions, and which Carlyle misinterprets IMO, because I think Robinson means that Maupertuis did not give any details the first time around, not that he told a fairytale.

I wasn't familiar with the phrase "blind story," so I looked it up. The definition given by the OED is "a story without point," (also repeated in other 19th century dictionaries), but the examples seem to involve unsubstantiated stories:

He insinuates a blind story about something and some body.
This story which in truth is but a blind one.

Then I found an English-Dutch dictionary from 1749, and it defines "blind story" as "een sprookje, een vertelling, daar geen hoofd noch staert aan is," which Google helpfully translates back into English for me as "a fairy tale, a tale to which there is neither head nor tail." (I've got to say, my Dutch and Swedish are getting a whole lot better thanks to German! I got all of that except "sprookje".) Oh, and an English dictionary for French speakers from 1793, which translates "blind story" as "une conte borgne," which Google tells me is "a one-eyed story, a ridiculous, improbable tale in which we don't believe."

But rereading the footnote for the umpteenth time, I agree that it's hard for me to read Robinson as not believing the second part, as opposed to saying Maupertuis left out all the incriminating parts the first time.

(Carlyle also calls Fritz' whole adventure his "Disappearance into Fairy-land", because there were so many fables being told about it, ha.)

Carlyle is hilarious, I'll give him that. I would give anything for him not to be so unreadable (particularly the Gutenberg version I have, which replaces italics with capslock.)

Oh, speaking of capslock, I was lolling at Goldstone's account of the 1738 Austrian encounter with the Ottomans near Belgrade: "The Imperial side WON."

Tell us how you really feel, Goldstone.

Will try to keep in mind that you are looking for a pre-1999 instance, though.

Thanks! You found me so many Peter Keith occurrences, I figure you're the best person to ask to keep an eye out for a Robert Keith.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

he negotiated with the emphasis he would have for harangues in the lower house. The King, rather inclined to grasp the ridiculous, adopted the same tone, and replied [... with a rousing speech about honor and his Protestant citizens in Silesia :P]. Robinson was stunned by this speech, which he did not expect.

This is so, so great. Fritz was totally in his element here--really wish I could have been a fly on the wall. :P I need to work this into a fic!

From:

felis

Ah, yes, I remember a comment conversation about his lack of opportunity for giving speeches... Now I'm wondering if he included more of those in the Histoire. Maybe I should read the thing one of these days - giving this excerpt, he seems to have opinions.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Oh, thank you for reminding me! Man, this would make a great fic. Frustrated Fritz wants to give speeches. Monologues a lot to his entourage. Finally, an ambassador gives him the chance to do a rousing tongue-in-cheek speech, and he takes it! Ambassador is confused. Fredersdorf nearly dies laughing that evening when Fritz acts out for him how it went.

giving this excerpt, he seems to have opinions.

Oh, if there's one thing I trust Fritz to do, it's to have opinions. (One of my modern AU OCs likes to joke that if a chemical engineer walked into the room, Fritz would suddenly have opinions on chemical engineering and be Fritzplaining away. :P)

And yeah, it's kind of funny that we've made it this far without reading Fritz's memoirs and histories. :D

From:

felis

Not plot-wise, but character-wise it's a bit difficult to reconcile the two.

How do you mean? It's not like this happened when he left the battle field, it was when he arrived at Oppeln, found it occupied by Hussars, and turned back. Am I missing/misunderstanding something? (Also, Fritz narrowly escaping capture by Hussars seems to have been a rather common thing, given that his "I'm only King if I'm free" letter to Podewils was written only a month earlier and also starts with "by the way, since I've narrowly escaped the Hussars' clutches twice now, here are my instructions".)

From:

cahn

Heh, I do remember Voltaire mentioning Maupertuis' steed in the Memoirs! Maupertuis, who hoped to make his fortune in a hurry, was in the suit [suite?] of the Monarch this compaign, imagining that the King would at least find him a horse. But this was not the royal custom. Maupertuis bought an ass for two ducats, on the day of battle, and fled with all his might after his Majesty on ass-back. This steed, however, was presently distanced, and Maupertuis was taken and stripped by the Austrian hussars.

Obviously Voltaire is not at all a reliable source, especially for details (and especially where Maupertuis is concerned, I imagine!), but it does seem to dovetail with Maupertuis at least not having a good horse, and I really like your idea of Maupertuis making a crack about it.

From:

felis

Ahaha, Voltaire seems to have gotten the gist of the story from Maupertuis indeed - and then it's very him to turn a "peasant's horse" into an ass, because of course that's funnier and makes Maupertuis look more ridiculous.

From:

cahn

Haha, yes! I am definitely getting the impression that Voltaire doesn't generally make up things out of whole cloth, but he will easily and happily exaggerate, make up salient details, and/or be very selective about what he says, in order to make it a better story / make himself look better / make whoever he's annoyed with at the time look more ridiculous :D

(This is why I think something like the orange peel story actually happened, even if we don't have any other source but the Memoirs and Pamela for it -- but I'd also be completely unsurprised to find out that the details were different and potentially didn't make Voltaire look as good!)