From a trio of German Romantic writers - Achim von Arnim, his wife Bettina, who is also the sister of the third, Achim's bff Clemens Brentano. Of interest to us because Achim was the grandson of the former Mrs. Fredersdorf, grew up at Zernikow and provided a good quote for the current Zernikow website which as it turns out hails from this volume (though the website version lacks the virginity part). The editor points out that both the Brentano siblings and Achim von Arnim lost their mothers early and did not get along with their fathers, hence the intense relating to the grandparents, of whom all these anecdotes tell. Of interest to us is what Achim has to say about Grandma, her father, and also his Grandfather (her third husband). It's also worth reading the footnotes, which reveal that, drumroll, Caroline (i.e. Mrs. Fredersdorf) wrote a short "My life so far" memoir in 1777, of which a typoscript exists and is mentioned in the source footnote as follows: Typoskript einer Lebensbeschreibung vom 13. September 1777 im Brandesburgischen Landeshauptarchiv Potsdam, Rep. 37, Bärwalde-Wiepersdorf, Nr. 1832.) As the description of Fredersdorf the footnote quotes from it is even more glowing than the one Achim renembers her giving, this almost makes me cry that felis doesn't live in Potsdam anymore. Anyway, something to look up in the future.
Caroline's father, Gottfried Adolf Daum (1679 - 1743) founded together with David Splitgerber the Berlin Bank and Trading House Splitgerber & Daum. They were just the kind of manufacturers FW wanted to encourage. Daum managed to impress him (not least by building houses in Berlin) and got permission to found and lead the Royal weapons and gun manufactory in Potsdam and Spandau 1722. (After Daum's death, his partner Splitgerber also founded the first Prussian sugar manufactury in 1746. You can see why Caroline was loaded as an heiress.) Daum also managed to become a casual member of the Tobacco Parliament. So it won't surprise you if I tell you he was a strict Dad. Quoting Achim remembering what his grandmother said:
For all the wealth, strict austerity ruled the house, the children were cautioned to work hard, so only in the evening was time for leisure. And even those evening hours were used in summer to practice how to walk decent and ladylike under the eyes of governess and governor.
(Methinks we know where the "freedom" part in Caroline's characterisation of her first marriage comes from. The governor was for her brother. Who scandalized Dad and Mom by becoming a Catholic and moving to Italy later. Mom would have disinherited him if Caroline, who loved her brother, hadn't insisted that she then wouldn't accept her inheritance, either, and reconciled him with Mom.)
When autumn arrived, their hearts grew heavy when they saw fruits lying on the ground and weren't allowed to touch them. They then thought of some artifice, like saying: "a pretty colorful stone, perhaps father's cufflink!" and adroitly hid the fruit beneath their skirts in order to eat it in the restroom later in secret.
On to Daum and FW:
He had built a Dutch kitchen in his house in order to honor the King, that is a clean oven, the Kitchen red with white streaks of chalk in imitation of the usual burned stone, a large table and a closet full of Dutch pipes. The King often visited him with his generals and enjoyed his kind of pranks. Thus, he told him once: Listen, Daum, all women are whores! - No, your Majesty, Daum replied, my wife is not a whore. - Well, the King said, be he reassured, his wife and mine excepted, all women are whores. - The King rarely took back anything he said, and it showed how much credit Daum had with him that he did this time. For the King had the habit, on each Sunday to order the entire high society of Potsdam to drive past him three times and to call to each lady "Whore Whore!" - It's strange that my grandmother claimed that actually, there had been only one whore in Potsdam at that time, who'd been called Putzers Hanne, but maybe she didn't know the other ones.
Or maybe FW was an oafish ass, Achim. Though I'm impressed Caroline knew the name of an actual prostitute, which I wouldn't have thought a rich man'd daughter would.
On to Caroline.
My grandmother had even into her old age very vivid intense blue eyes, regular features, she was tall and had a good figure. Her coloring she'd lost due to an illness, without looking sickly or being an invalid, though. She was very vivacious, fulll of eagerness for the world's turnmoil, was used to devotion, discipline and austerity from her youth, was very noble in mind, and a witty companion to most. One should have believed these qualities would have assuredly let her into blissful domesticity with an ever growing circle of children. But strange fate! Her affection was won by a man who was already really ill and suffering from hemorhoids, though he was otherwise very handsome - the original word Achim uses is "schön", i.e. beautiful, but I know it's not used for men in English - , the Secret Chamberlain of the new King Friedrich II, his favourite ever since he as a soldier in the prison of Küstrin had lessened (Fritz') grief through his flute play. He seems to have been too well educated for a soldier; probably his tall figure caused his being drafted into service under the old King. My grandmother in her love believed him to be the most intelligent and wittiest man of the world. In her old age she read their exchanged love letters again, and be it that she had been aged too much, or that she did not want us to know and did not see the suitability of the jokes anymore, she did not want to share them and burned them with the same amazement that she'd been delighted by them in her youth. Friedrich didn't like the people around him to be married, he may have felt that they then didn't belong to him as completely anymore; he demanded utter devotion, but permitted them much confidentiality as a result. Moments in which to demand something of him had still be spotted and used quickly. The opportune moment to get the permission to marry from the King seemed to take years, the illness of the poor favourite grew, and he explained to the King that he could only hope to get better through this marriage and that he was dying of grief. That worked; the King agreed, and so that the King wouldn't change his mind again, the marriage was celebrated within twenty four hours after the hard won permission of the King had arrived. Thus the sickbed was the entrance to a marriage in which my grandmother lived as a virgin under a thousand worries but also with blissful freedom, mutual agreement and inner cheerfulness for three years after which he died after much sicknesss, so that after her own death she only wanted to rest at the side of this most beloved of her three husbands in her coffin. Illness made the poor man often irritable, but she swore that his general kindness and repentance over each outburst had her always reconciled. He tried to find all kinds of diversions for her so that she wouldn't suffer from the sitting in a sick room, and made her go on long rides so she'd have distractions. As a proof of her fitness may serve the fact she often rode to Berlin and back from Potsdam in one day, at a time when this way was much longer and very uneven, so really lasted eight miles. I have seen a painting of her in her riding dress, it was a half male outfit in green, wiht a female skirt and a three point hat. She also rode like a man.
Comment: we already know the "got married within 24 hours" isn't true from Lehndorff's diary (and also by implication from the one Fritz letter where Fredersdorf's upcoming marriage is mentioned), but it's interesting the story had taken this shape decades later for Achim and his brother. The footnote to this passage by the editor contains an actual quote from Caroline's memoir preserved in typoscript, and it says:
His loss and his memory will always remain unforgettable to me, since our love was uncontestedly the purest and most loyal I was ever to find, which is why this worthy man has deserved that it should be known he was gifted besides the most beautiful pleasant looks with the most enlightened mind, abilities and quickness of spirit, which can hardly find their like anywhere.
From this praise by Caroline in 1777 you can deduce not just her very brief second marriage but the longer one to Achim's actual grandfather was less than stellar. Stay tuned as to why, but which I'll translate and transcribe later and separatedly.
As the description of Fredersdorf the footnote quotes from it is even more glowing than the one Achim renembers her giving, this almost makes me cry that felis doesn't live in Potsdam anymore. Anyway, something to look up in the future.
Don't cry, it was the first hit on Google! It took me 30 seconds to find. The whole life is only 4 pages long. It's in the library now, starting on page 63.
I can see where the 24 hour story arose, even though that's not what she says! The way I read it: they got engaged October 29, 1752. (I don't think we had that date!) Shortly thereafter, Fredersdorf fell sick. Because he was a great favorite of Fritz, Fritz didn't want him to get married until he was recovered, because Fritz was worried that married life would be detrimental to Fredersdorf's health. [I suspect the sex part?] But the doctors gave Fredersdorf no chance of recovery [this is the part I'm a little unsure I'm reading right], so Fritz gave his royal permission, and Caroline and Fredersdorf were married December 20, 1753, with Fredersdorf on his sickbed.
Tell me if I got that right:
Im Jahre 1752, den 29. Oktober ward ich zum ersten Male verlobt mit dem damaligen königlichen geheimen Kämmerer Michael Gabriel Fredersdorff, welcher kurz nach der Verlobung in kränkliche Umstände verfiel, sodaß der König, da er sein grosser Favorit war, die Vollziehung der Heirat aus grosser Besorgung für sein Leben, nicht vor seiner völligen Genesung zulassen wollte, da die Krankheit aber anhaltend blieb, ward ich mit allerhöchstem Konsens diesem Fredersdorf auf sein innigstes Verlangen 1753, den 20. Dezember auf dem Krankenbette, da die Medici ihm das Leben völlig absprachen, angetraut.
And then she remained a virgin, which...I'm now imagining Fritz and Fredersdorf having the conversation of, "Well, I'm not going to sleep with her as long as I'm this sick, so don't worry about it, just let me get married!" :P
Also! We now know that he died about 10 in the morning on January 12. We knew the date but not the time.
da er zu meinem allergrössten Schmerz den 12. Januar des morgens um 10 Uhr im 48. Jahre seines Alters zu Potsdam in der Gnade seines grossen Königs dies zeitliche segnete.
Also, help me out with that sentence: I can't tell if she's saying Fredersdorf was in Fritz's favor when he died??? or if "in der Gnade seines grossen Königs" has to do with God. (God or Fritz, easy to confuse. :P)
AAHHH, I will try to say more later, but I'm having *so much* trouble finding time for salon :((( (upcoming post on why--I might be moving), but even before I turned up Caroline's life, I was DELIGHTED by your write-up, and my reaction was, "I KNEW we wanted this volume!" :DDDD
I can see where the 24 hour story arose, even though that's not what she says!
Not at all, and in fact, her dates fit with what we know from Lehndorff's diary, but yes, it's comprehensible that her grandson decades later, being a poet and writer of fiction, altered the story the way he did.
they got engaged October 29, 1752. (I don't think we had that date!)
We did not, but like I said, it fits with Lehndorff on December 15th 1752 at the same dinner where he meets the Abbé de Prades for the first time noticing "Fredersdorf's fiancee" and hearing Fritz will give her a wedding present of 5000 Taler. (It was this entry that kept us from accepting the 24 hours story more than anything else, since it's set a year before the actual wedding.)
because Fritz was worried that married life would be detrimental to Fredersdorf's health. [I suspect the sex part?]
Definitely the sex part. "Vollziehung der Ehe" is "consumation of marriage". Incidentally, I'm a bit sceptical about the medical part of these supposed Fritzian concerns, given that in the one and only letter to Fredersdorf where he mentions the upcoming marriage, he also makes that "take a hot hunter or page with you" joke. Otoh, maybe he thought sex with a woman would be more stressful. (And also proof Fredersdorf hadn't just married a nurse.) Not to mention that it could be an argument Fredersdorf himself used to Caroline for why he didn't have sex with her that would not feel like a rejection of herself. (A la Mina and Heinrich.) Mind you, given he'd die three years later and really did have terrible hemorrhoid problems already in the winter of 1753, he probably wasn't longing for sex with either man or woman in any event.
But the doctors gave Fredersdorf no chance of recovery [this is the part I'm a little unsure I'm reading right]
No, you're reading it right - "the doctors denied there was any chance that he would live" (in the long term). Just to set the record straight, we should list the differences here to the Achim derived story from various other biographies and websites:
Caroline: we got engaged, but because he was in such a bad state, the King was worried and said we were not to marry until he recovered.
Achim and successors: Because the King didn't like his bffs to marry, you had to be careful to ask for permission and use a good moment, so they kept their intention a secret until then.
Caroline: The doctors said he wouldn't recover in the long term anyway and he really wanted to marry me, so the King gave permission and we were married a bit more than a year after getting engaged with him being in the sickbed, he was that ill.
Achim and successors: Fredersdorf got sick, pretended to be dying if he didn't marry Caroline, got permission from Fritz and immediately married her within 24 hours of getting the permission, upon which he recovered.
This has become quite a different story!
Also, help me out with that sentence: I can't tell if she's saying Fredersdorf was in Fritz's favor when he died??? or if "in der Gnade seines grossen Königs" has to do with God. (God or Fritz, easy to confuse. :P)
Truth, hence my letting Heinrich use the "Allmighty" designation. :) But she definitely means Fritz. (So there, Wikipedia and Fahlenkamp!) "Der große König" was NOT how Rococo people talked about God.
Not that I doubted it, but I still love it when the dates line up this way. And I continue to be glad that Lehndorff gives us so much background and additional info and everyone and everything (except Katte :P), allowing for a much denser tapestry of events.
"Vollziehung der Ehe" is "consumation of marriage"
You know, I certainly know that turn of phrase, but still didn't immediately make the connection. Still, fascinating that this was a topic and the reason Fritz gave.
As I said above, I love that we have a first-hand account from Caroline's perspective here, and yeah, I agree with you guys that one can easily see how and why the dramatized story developed, but damn, that's quite a difference and I have to say, for our purposes, the truth is much more fun IMO.
And I continue to be glad that Lehndorff gives us so much background and additional info and everyone and everything (except Katte :P),
Lehndorff: He's from the Family Of Evil Bridestealers, and also: *waves TEAM KEITH banner*
Still, fascinating that this was a topic and the reason Fritz gave.
I was wondering how Achim knew his grandmother remained a virgin during her Frederdorf marriage before reading her own quote on it. And doesn't it say a lot about the difference between the 18th and the 19th century, both that it was discussed before hand and that she later felt free to talk about it? 19th century historians and bowlderizers would have had the vapeurs.
I have to say, for our purposes, the truth is much more fun IMO.
Absolutely. Everyone comes out of it way better in this version from our Fritz/Fredersdorf shipping pov!
It was neat! I continue to be delighted at what a great team we make, in which I turn up the anecdotes volume and tell you about it, and you read it and tell us all the neat anecdotes in it and tell us that there's a life by Caroline Daum, and then I find it and you help me read it! :D
We did not, but like I said, it fits with Lehndorff on December 15th 1752
Exactly, I had double-checked it when doing this write-up yesterday.
Definitely the sex part. "Vollziehung der Ehe" is "consumation of marriage".
Aahhh, yes, of course, I should have thought of that. (Oh, wait, I was super distracted and rushed because of reasons.) I just figured it was sex because that was a common thing to worry about.
I'm a bit sceptical about the medical part of these supposed Fritzian concerns, given that in the one and only letter to Fredersdorf where he mentions the upcoming marriage, he also makes that "take a hot hunter or page with you" joke.
I had the same reaction! (There were many things I wanted to say yesterday and did not.) I suspect Fritz is actually medically concerned, but then using the medical part to justify his main concern, which is, "I'm still your top priority, right? Right???"
No, you're reading it right - "the doctors denied there was any chance that he would live" (in the long term).
Awesome, thanks.
This has become quite a different story!
Indeed! But the interesting part is that the individual elements are all there, even if the way they're put together completely contradicts the later version of the story. I did wonder briefly if maybe Fritz gave his permission (the second time) on December 19, 1753, but no, his "take a hot hunter or page with you" letter is from "around the beginning of November 1753." Incidentally, Richter gives the marriage date as December 30, not December 20, citing the church book in the Potsdam Garrison Church, and Fahlenkamp agrees. Our chronology says December 23!! Which is from Wikipedia, no citation. (This is what I mean by constantly hitting different dates for the same event.) (Fontane of course gives 1750, but we know that's way off.)
The 20th could be a typo, or the 30th could be a typo/misreading that Fahlenkamp copied from Richter.
(God or Fritz, easy to confuse. :P)
Truth, hence my letting Heinrich use the "Allmighty" designation. :)
Heee, that was hilarious. :D
But she definitely means Fritz. (So there, Wikipedia and Fahlenkamp!)
Aha! That was my first reading (and "so there!" my first reaction), but then I started second-guessing and thinking maybe I just have Wikipedia and Fahlenkamp on the brain because I've been doing some serious research on that subject in the last month.
So...is she being defensive because when she was writing, there were already claims about him not having been in favor? Because that seems like an interesting thing to interject into his death description. "Fredersdorf was Fritz's favorite, so Fritz was worried about his health and didn't want to let us get married" is an important part of the plot; "Fredersdorf was in favor when he died!" is...lacking context unless there are already rumors going around.
(Deschamps accuses Fredersdorf of embezzlement, but never actually says he was out of favor, as far as I can tell, and indeed implies quite the opposite (based on my memory of Selena's summary of the editor's summary of a text none of us have read)).
Btw, if it were only Caroline, I'd have to point out her possible bias, but we have so much other evidence that while this isn't the strongest piece, it's definitely good to add to the picture.
"Der große König" was NOT how Rococo people talked about God.
I suspect Fritz is actually medically concerned, but then using the medical part to justify his main concern, which is, "I'm still your top priority, right? Right???"
LOL, yes, that's what I figured, too.
The 20th could be a typo, or the 30th could be a typo/misreading that Fahlenkamp copied from Richter.
Either is possible, argh. At least it can't be another case of Gregorian vs Julian calendar, since Protestant Brandenburg had adopted the Gregorian Calendar by then, too.
So...is she being defensive because when she was writing, there were already claims about him not having been in favor? Because that seems like an interesting thing to interject into his death description. "Fredersdorf was Fritz's favorite, so Fritz was worried about his health and didn't want to let us get married" is an important part of the plot; "Fredersdorf was in favor when he died!" is...lacking context unless there are already rumors going around.
There were. You're forgetting Glasow! Lehndorff definitely is under the impression Glasow was one of the reaosns why Fredersdorf quit his job and thinks Fritz traded one for the other in his journals. Henckel von Donnersmarck also thinks Glasow "got rid of Fredersdorf" on his rise to power. Both are contemporay writers writing independently from each other in their journals. Which means there must have been a rumor that Fredersdorf either quit because of Glasow or got traded in or both, and I suspect that's what Caroline is argueing against implicitly, saying, no, he died very much in favor.
they got engaged October 29, 1752. (I don't think we had that date!)
Oh, Selena, since you're always interested in Fredersdorf's marriage and the Voltaire explosion, I was updating our chronology just now, and I give you this juxtaposition:
1752, October 15: Fritz publishes Lettre d‘un académicien de Berlin à un académicien de Paris, defending Maupertuis and trashing Voltaire. 1752, October 29: Fredersdorf and Caroline von Daum get engaged.
I knew it. I put it to you that someone just about had it with the constant Voltaire drama taking over his Fritzian life and wanted his own haven of sanity as a balance.
if Caroline, who loved her brother, hadn't insisted that she then wouldn't accept her inheritance, either, and reconciled him with Mom.
Go Caroline! (Also totally fits the pic I have of her from what you've told us, selenak.)
When autumn arrived, their hearts grew heavy when they saw fruits lying on the ground and weren't allowed to touch them. They then thought of some artifice, like saying: "a pretty colorful stone, perhaps father's cufflink!" and adroitly hid the fruit beneath their skirts in order to eat it in the restroom later in secret.
Aw MAN. This is both a charming and a heartbreaking story.
It's strange that my grandmother claimed that actually, there had been only one whore in Potsdam at that time, who'd been called Putzers Hanne, but maybe she didn't know the other ones.
Heh. Is it possible Achim is being sarcastic here? It just seems a little... disingenuous to me :)
But strange fate! Her affection was won by a man who was already really ill and suffering from hemorhoids, though he was otherwise very handsome
<3
probably his tall figure caused his being drafted into service under the old King.
LOL Achim's headcanon is my headcanon that is to say, FW totally hit on Fredersdorf
she did not want to share them and burned them with the same amazement that she'd been delighted by them in her youth.
Aw Caroline! I do understand why people burn their letters on a personal level (I don't think I'd want anyone to find the letters I wrote when I was a silly teenager) but of course it's sad from a historical standpoint :P
a marriage in which my grandmother lived as a virgin under a thousand worries but also with blissful freedom, mutual agreement and inner cheerfulness for three years after which he died after much sicknesss, so that after her own death she only wanted to rest at the side of this most beloved of her three husbands in her coffin. Illness made the poor man often irritable, but she swore that his general kindness and repentance over each outburst had her always reconciled. He tried to find all kinds of diversions for her so that she wouldn't suffer from the sitting in a sick room, and made her go on long rides so she'd have distractions.
This is all so fascinating and so sweet and Fredersdorf was clearly THE BEST <3
This is both a charming and a heartbreaking story.
What I thought. Sheesh, Daum, FW ISN'T whom you should have taken as a role model when educating your children.
Heh. Is it possible Achim is being sarcastic here? It just seems a little... disingenuous to me :)
He might well have been. He was certainly capable of it; his and Clemens Brentano's correspondence is full of sarcasm. And let's not forget, he's writing in early 19th century Prussia, where you do not critique any of the Hohenzollern.
Aw Caroline! I do understand why people burn their letters on a personal level (I don't think I'd want anyone to find the letters I wrote when I was a silly teenager) but of course it's sad from a historical standpoint :P
Yes to both. It's noteworthy that she didn't burn the Fritz letters, mind. Perhaps because she thought the later were of historical value since they were by Fritz (and showed how much her favourite husband had meant to him), while her own love letters were to her something strictly personal and no one else's business.
Aw Caroline! I do understand why people burn their letters on a personal level (I don't think I'd want anyone to find the letters I wrote when I was a silly teenager) but of course it's sad from a historical standpoint :P
Same! I want all my private letters, fic drafts, browser history, etc. deleted, but I extremely want those of historical figures and authors to survive!
LOL Achim's headcanon is my headcanon that is to say, FW totally hit on Fredersdorf
LOL! Remember, I still want that Christmas 1732 outtake where FW paints him! Would that we had known when you were writing that fic!
FW aside, I thought we had determined that Fredersdorf *was* dubconned drafted because of his height? Even below the Potsdam Giants cutoff, regimental commanders had their quotas to meet, and there were height requirements (hence the Fritz/Heinrich conflict later on).
This is all so fascinating and so sweet and Fredersdorf was clearly THE BEST <3
It's lovely to learn more about Caroline - and to get a first-hand account from her no less!
You can see why Caroline was loaded as an heiress.
I already meant to comment on this last post, but while I knew about the money, I was surprised to learn that her father was such a big deal and occasionally attended the tobacco parliament. Given how much writer Achim dramatized the marriage story, though, I feel like we should take the FW story with a grain of salt as well? Not that I can't see him saying/doing all that, it certainly fits his personality and his paranoia re: women, but still.
That said, the way Achim reports the anecdotes from his grandma's childhood is very lively, but also reminds me of the way my grandmothers used to tell stories from theirs - not in content, but in style (including the prostitute bit, funny enough, down to the way of mentioning names).
she did not want to share them and burned them
Nooooo. I mean, I get it, but still!
I have seen a painting of her in her riding dress, it was a half male outfit in green, wiht a female skirt and a three point hat. She also rode like a man.
I'd love to see this painting, sounds pretty badass...
with the most enlightened mind
Which I suspect in large part means his opinion on women and their role, given everything we've now learned about Caroline and their relationship. But I also like it as part of the bigger picture, being close to someone like Fritz and even a member of the freemasons.
It's lovely to learn more about Caroline - and to get a first-hand account from her no less!
Indeed! I so glad it survives, and I guess I now have to look up Clara von Armin's memoirs as well, since the magazine Mildred linked says she decribes how the family unearthed Caroline's account in the 1920s.
Given how much writer Achim dramatized the marriage story, though, I feel like we should take the FW story with a grain of salt as well? Not that I can't see him saying/doing all that, it certainly fits his personality and his paranoia re: women, but still.
Oh absolutely. Just because it's ic doesn't mean it has to be literally true, plus Achim is bound to have read some anecdote collections and memoirs featuring FW being, welll, FW, which could have become jumbled in his mind with his grandmother's tale. This said, there's a footnote from the editor to the "whore, whore!" story saying: "Compare the contemporary anecdote of the encounter between the King and a "well dressed woman" in the park of Charlottenburg: "She attracted his attention, and he pushed his horse thusly in her direction that she was bound to come across his path. The monarch in general did not have a good opinion of any women of this kind, especially if they were dressed up more than usual. When he came closer, he noticed, as he would later admit himself, that she was of more than common beauty, but this even contributed to his being strengthened in his bias against all women. After he had asked her regarding her name and station, which was one of middle class burgherdom, his generally adopted principles caused the statement against her that she surely had to be a whore." (Karakterzüge aus dem Leben König Friedrich Wilhelm I. nebst verschiedenen Anekdoten. Erste Sammlung, Berlin 1787, S. 129 - 131.)
Conclusion: Maybe Achim did his exaggerating thing again, and the story his grandmother told also only referenced one "whore!" occasion, not FW doing this every Sunday, but I can well believe it happened.
I'd love to see this painting, sounds pretty badass...
I'm afraid it's lost, otherwise they surely would have had it at Zernikow. The only portrait of Caroline I've ever seen there or anywhere else is the one showing her as an old woman. Which I suspect is the result of the complete decline and lack of attention to Zernikow from the mid 19th century onwards, alas.
Fredersdorf's enlightened mind: "mit dem aufgeklärtesten Verstande, Fähigkeiten und Munterkeit des Geistes begabet" is the original phrase, and I like it for the same reasons you do, plus remember Richter (and some others) snobbishly declaring that Fredersdorf couldn't have possibly been of any interest as a person since he was just a dumb servant (thus is only interest lies in the emotion he evoked in Fritz)? Even if you ascribe rosy glasses to Caroline, who is speaking restrospectively about a man who has been dead for decades and symbolizes to her the happiest years of her life as a wife: she is writing this at a time of her life when she's known plenty of other people to compare Fredersdorf with. She's not writing as the young woman newly in love, but as an old one who has lived in Berlin when a great many of the clever spirits of the age did, she has a basis of comparison. Also, what does come across is that he wanted her to be happy in this marriage, not just play nurse to him and deliver her fortune to him. Which puts him a head of a great many husbands of the age!
Conclusion: Maybe Achim did his exaggerating thing again, and the story his grandmother told also only referenced one "whore!" occasion, not FW doing this every Sunday, but I can well believe it happened.
*nod* Yes, that makes perfect sense. Note also this passage from Voltaire's memoirs:
After Frederic-William had reviewed his giants, he used to walk through the town, and every body fled before- him full speed. If he happened to meet a woman, he would demand why she staid idling her time in the streets, and exclaim, ('Go--get home with you, you lazy hussy; an honest woman has no business over the threshold of her own door;' which remonstrance he would accompany with a hearty box on the ear, a kick in the groin (!), or a few well applied strokes on the shoulders with his cane.
Also, what does come across is that he wanted her to be happy in this marriage, not just play nurse to him and deliver her fortune to him. Which puts him a head of a great many husbands of the age!
For all the wealth, strict austerity ruled the house, the children were cautioned to work hard, so only in the evening was time for leisure. And even those evening hours were used in summer to practice how to walk decent and ladylike under the eyes of governess and governor.
(Methinks we know where the "freedom" part in Caroline's characterisation of her first marriage comes from.
Indeed. I totally see Fredersdorf telling her her take rides and get away from the sickbed being the favorite husband. <3
her brother. Who scandalized Dad and Mom by becoming a Catholic and moving to Italy later. Mom would have disinherited him if Caroline, who loved her brother, hadn't insisted that she then wouldn't accept her inheritance, either, and reconciled him with Mom.
What a great story! And definitely a strong-willed woman.
My grandmother in her love believed him to be the most intelligent and wittiest man of the world.
Aww, I kind of ship these two. (Thanks to you, Selena.)
In her old age she read their exchanged love letters again, and be it that she had been aged too much, or that she did not want us to know and did not see the suitability of the jokes anymore, she did not want to share them and burned them with the same amazement that she'd been delighted by them in her youth.
Gah! Like everyone else, I understand, but what a loss.
Illness made the poor man often irritable, but she swore that his general kindness and repentance over each outburst had her always reconciled.
Aww, it's nice to see a three-dimensional picture of Fredersdorf. I can tell you that I'm not at my best when I'm sick, and I definitely remember telling the nurse after my major surgery that if I was cranky with her, it wasn't because she wasn't doing a great job.
As a proof of her fitness may serve the fact she often rode to Berlin and back from Potsdam in one day, at a time when this way was much longer and very uneven, so really lasted eight miles.
Reminder for cahn that the German mile of the 18th century was approximately 5 of our miles, so for "eight miles" read "forty miles." I just checked Google maps and it's about 20 miles along modern roads, but I can't tell whether he's saying 40 miles round-trip (which it doesn't seem it could have been less than that when Achim is writing), or 40 miles each way (which is double the modern distance).
I have seen a painting of her in her riding dress, it was a half male outfit in green, wiht a female skirt and a three point hat. She also rode like a man.
Go her! And go Fredersdorf letting her ride and ride astride. As we've discussed, women riding in Germany was not really a thing, which is why young Anhalt Sophie was so impressed when she saw Countess Bentinck doing it, and why Wilhelmine had the whole Scooby Doo episode, and why MT had to learn for her coronation.
Aww, I kind of ship these two. (Thanks to you, Selena.)
Spreading the joy of multishipping is my mission in this fandom, along with spreading the interest in the ladies connected to the guys and in sibling interaction of all kind. :)
Aww, it's nice to see a three-dimensional picture of Fredersdorf. I can tell you that I'm not at my best when I'm sick, and I definitely remember telling the nurse after my major surgery that if I was cranky with her, it wasn't because she wasn't doing a great job.
*nods* Absolutely. He wasn't perfect, and I think anyone who has been sick, and also who has been close to a sick person, can relate. That this is included in Achim's recollections of his Grandmother's stories along with the praise also gives me confidence that by and large, he's telling the truth as he knows it (dramatizations not withstanding).
Potsdam-Berlin distance: giving the rapid growth of Berlin through the 19th and then the 20th century, I bet it was the larger distance back then?
Potsdam-Berlin distance: giving the rapid growth of Berlin through the 19th and then the 20th century, I bet it was the larger distance back then?
I took the growth into account and used landmarks that we know existed then: Sanssouci and the Berliner Dom. That said, I don't know what her exact start and end points were, so it could be the outskirts.
(I mean, this map is from twenty years later, but I can't imagine that the roads changed all that much in between.)
It sounds like he's saying the roads *did* change. One thing that occurs to me: given the amount of water in the area, could there have been a body of water or marshy ground that you had to go around in the 1750s and could go straight over by road in the 1770s?
As a proof of her fitness may serve the fact she often rode to Berlin and back from Potsdam in one day, at a time when this way was much longer and very uneven, so really lasted eight miles.
Reminder for cahn that the German mile of the 18th century was approximately 5 of our miles
For illustration see this map from 1775, which shows the roads between Potsdam and Berlin at the time and includes a handy mile indicator. It's indeed roughly four miles one-way, so I'm not quite sure what he's saying either, as the round-trip was eight miles. (I mean, this map is from twenty years later, but I can't imagine that the roads changed all that much in between.)
ETA: Possibly like Selena said - expansion of both towns led to shrinking distance between the outskirts and that's why he's clarifying the distance. But he definitely means round-trip then.
Aww, I kind of ship these two. (Thanks to you, Selena.)
Seconded!
Aww, it's nice to see a three-dimensional picture of Fredersdorf. I can tell you that I'm not at my best when I'm sick, and I definitely remember telling the nurse after my major surgery that if I was cranky with her, it wasn't because she wasn't doing a great job.
Yesssss this!
Reminder for [personal profile] cahn that the German mile of the 18th century was approximately 5 of our miles, so for "eight miles" read "forty miles."
Oh, whoa, thanks! Yeah, that is definitely a rather bigger deal.
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timeasmymeasure
"Anekdoten, die wir erlebten und hörten"
Date: 2021-07-24 06:47 am (UTC)Caroline's father, Gottfried Adolf Daum (1679 - 1743) founded together with David Splitgerber the Berlin Bank and Trading House Splitgerber & Daum. They were just the kind of manufacturers FW wanted to encourage. Daum managed to impress him (not least by building houses in Berlin) and got permission to found and lead the Royal weapons and gun manufactory in Potsdam and Spandau 1722. (After Daum's death, his partner Splitgerber also founded the first Prussian sugar manufactury in 1746. You can see why Caroline was loaded as an heiress.) Daum also managed to become a casual member of the Tobacco Parliament. So it won't surprise you if I tell you he was a strict Dad. Quoting Achim remembering what his grandmother said:
For all the wealth, strict austerity ruled the house, the children were cautioned to work hard, so only in the evening was time for leisure. And even those evening hours were used in summer to practice how to walk decent and ladylike under the eyes of governess and governor.
(Methinks we know where the "freedom" part in Caroline's characterisation of her first marriage comes from. The governor was for her brother. Who scandalized Dad and Mom by becoming a Catholic and moving to Italy later. Mom would have disinherited him if Caroline, who loved her brother, hadn't insisted that she then wouldn't accept her inheritance, either, and reconciled him with Mom.)
When autumn arrived, their hearts grew heavy when they saw fruits lying on the ground and weren't allowed to touch them. They then thought of some artifice, like saying: "a pretty colorful stone, perhaps father's cufflink!" and adroitly hid the fruit beneath their skirts in order to eat it in the restroom later in secret.
On to Daum and FW:
He had built a Dutch kitchen in his house in order to honor the King, that is a clean oven, the Kitchen red with white streaks of chalk in imitation of the usual burned stone, a large table and a closet full of Dutch pipes. The King often visited him with his generals and enjoyed his kind of pranks. Thus, he told him once: Listen, Daum, all women are whores! - No, your Majesty, Daum replied, my wife is not a whore. - Well, the King said, be he reassured, his wife and mine excepted, all women are whores. - The King rarely took back anything he said, and it showed how much credit Daum had with him that he did this time. For the King had the habit, on each Sunday to order the entire high society of Potsdam to drive past him three times and to call to each lady "Whore Whore!" - It's strange that my grandmother claimed that actually, there had been only one whore in Potsdam at that time, who'd been called Putzers Hanne, but maybe she didn't know the other ones.
Or maybe FW was an oafish ass, Achim. Though I'm impressed Caroline knew the name of an actual prostitute, which I wouldn't have thought a rich man'd daughter would.
On to Caroline.
My grandmother had even into her old age very vivid intense blue eyes, regular features, she was tall and had a good figure. Her coloring she'd lost due to an illness, without looking sickly or being an invalid, though. She was very vivacious, fulll of eagerness for the world's turnmoil, was used to devotion, discipline and austerity from her youth, was very noble in mind, and a witty companion to most. One should have believed these qualities would have assuredly let her into blissful domesticity with an ever growing circle of children. But strange fate! Her affection was won by a man who was already really ill and suffering from hemorhoids, though he was otherwise very handsome - the original word Achim uses is "schön", i.e. beautiful, but I know it's not used for men in English - , the Secret Chamberlain of the new King Friedrich II, his favourite ever since he as a soldier in the prison of Küstrin had lessened (Fritz') grief through his flute play. He seems to have been too well educated for a soldier; probably his tall figure caused his being drafted into service under the old King. My grandmother in her love believed him to be the most intelligent and wittiest man of the world. In her old age she read their exchanged love letters again, and be it that she had been aged too much, or that she did not want us to know and did not see the suitability of the jokes anymore, she did not want to share them and burned them with the same amazement that she'd been delighted by them in her youth.
Friedrich didn't like the people around him to be married, he may have felt that they then didn't belong to him as completely anymore; he demanded utter devotion, but permitted them much confidentiality as a result. Moments in which to demand something of him had still be spotted and used quickly. The opportune moment to get the permission to marry from the King seemed to take years, the illness of the poor favourite grew, and he explained to the King that he could only hope to get better through this marriage and that he was dying of grief. That worked; the King agreed, and so that the King wouldn't change his mind again, the marriage was celebrated within twenty four hours after the hard won permission of the King had arrived. Thus the sickbed was the entrance to a marriage in which my grandmother lived as a virgin under a thousand worries but also with blissful freedom, mutual agreement and inner cheerfulness for three years after which he died after much sicknesss, so that after her own death she only wanted to rest at the side of this most beloved of her three husbands in her coffin.
Illness made the poor man often irritable, but she swore that his general kindness and repentance over each outburst had her always reconciled. He tried to find all kinds of diversions for her so that she wouldn't suffer from the sitting in a sick room, and made her go on long rides so she'd have distractions. As a proof of her fitness may serve the fact she often rode to Berlin and back from Potsdam in one day, at a time when this way was much longer and very uneven, so really lasted eight miles. I have seen a painting of her in her riding dress, it was a half male outfit in green, wiht a female skirt and a three point hat. She also rode like a man.
Comment: we already know the "got married within 24 hours" isn't true from Lehndorff's diary (and also by implication from the one Fritz letter where Fredersdorf's upcoming marriage is mentioned), but it's interesting the story had taken this shape decades later for Achim and his brother. The footnote to this passage by the editor contains an actual quote from Caroline's memoir preserved in typoscript, and it says:
His loss and his memory will always remain unforgettable to me, since our love was uncontestedly the purest and most loyal I was ever to find, which is why this worthy man has deserved that it should be known he was gifted besides the most beautiful pleasant looks with the most enlightened mind, abilities and quickness of spirit, which can hardly find their like anywhere.
From this praise by Caroline in 1777 you can deduce not just her very brief second marriage but the longer one to Achim's actual grandfather was less than stellar. Stay tuned as to why, but which I'll translate and transcribe later and separatedly.
Re: "Anekdoten, die wir erlebten und hörten"
Date: 2021-07-24 06:28 pm (UTC)Don't cry, it was the first hit on Google! It took me 30 seconds to find. The whole life is only 4 pages long. It's in the library now, starting on page 63.
I can see where the 24 hour story arose, even though that's not what she says! The way I read it: they got engaged October 29, 1752. (I don't think we had that date!) Shortly thereafter, Fredersdorf fell sick. Because he was a great favorite of Fritz, Fritz didn't want him to get married until he was recovered, because Fritz was worried that married life would be detrimental to Fredersdorf's health. [I suspect the sex part?] But the doctors gave Fredersdorf no chance of recovery [this is the part I'm a little unsure I'm reading right], so Fritz gave his royal permission, and Caroline and Fredersdorf were married December 20, 1753, with Fredersdorf on his sickbed.
Tell me if I got that right:
Im Jahre 1752, den 29. Oktober ward ich zum ersten Male verlobt mit dem damaligen königlichen geheimen Kämmerer Michael Gabriel Fredersdorff, welcher kurz nach der Verlobung in kränkliche Umstände verfiel, sodaß der König, da er sein grosser Favorit war, die Vollziehung der Heirat aus grosser Besorgung für sein Leben, nicht vor seiner völligen Genesung zulassen wollte, da die Krankheit aber anhaltend blieb, ward ich mit allerhöchstem Konsens diesem Fredersdorf auf sein innigstes Verlangen 1753, den 20. Dezember auf dem Krankenbette, da die Medici ihm das Leben völlig absprachen, angetraut.
And then she remained a virgin, which...I'm now imagining Fritz and Fredersdorf having the conversation of, "Well, I'm not going to sleep with her as long as I'm this sick, so don't worry about it, just let me get married!" :P
Also! We now know that he died about 10 in the morning on January 12. We knew the date but not the time.
da er zu meinem allergrössten Schmerz den 12. Januar des morgens um 10 Uhr im 48. Jahre seines Alters zu Potsdam in der Gnade seines grossen Königs dies zeitliche segnete.
Also, help me out with that sentence: I can't tell if she's saying Fredersdorf was in Fritz's favor when he died??? or if "in der Gnade seines grossen Königs" has to do with God. (God or Fritz, easy to confuse. :P)
AAHHH, I will try to say more later, but I'm having *so much* trouble finding time for salon :((( (upcoming post on why--I might be moving), but even before I turned up Caroline's life, I was DELIGHTED by your write-up, and my reaction was, "I KNEW we wanted this volume!" :DDDD
Re: "Anekdoten, die wir erlebten und hörten"
Date: 2021-07-25 06:02 am (UTC)I can see where the 24 hour story arose, even though that's not what she says!
Not at all, and in fact, her dates fit with what we know from Lehndorff's diary, but yes, it's comprehensible that her grandson decades later, being a poet and writer of fiction, altered the story the way he did.
they got engaged October 29, 1752. (I don't think we had that date!)
We did not, but like I said, it fits with Lehndorff on December 15th 1752 at the same dinner where he meets the Abbé de Prades for the first time noticing "Fredersdorf's fiancee" and hearing Fritz will give her a wedding present of 5000 Taler. (It was this entry that kept us from accepting the 24 hours story more than anything else, since it's set a year before the actual wedding.)
because Fritz was worried that married life would be detrimental to Fredersdorf's health. [I suspect the sex part?]
Definitely the sex part. "Vollziehung der Ehe" is "consumation of marriage". Incidentally, I'm a bit sceptical about the medical part of these supposed Fritzian concerns, given that in the one and only letter to Fredersdorf where he mentions the upcoming marriage, he also makes that "take a hot hunter or page with you" joke. Otoh, maybe he thought sex with a woman would be more stressful. (And also proof Fredersdorf hadn't just married a nurse.) Not to mention that it could be an argument Fredersdorf himself used to Caroline for why he didn't have sex with her that would not feel like a rejection of herself. (A la Mina and Heinrich.) Mind you, given he'd die three years later and really did have terrible hemorrhoid problems already in the winter of 1753, he probably wasn't longing for sex with either man or woman in any event.
But the doctors gave Fredersdorf no chance of recovery [this is the part I'm a little unsure I'm reading right]
No, you're reading it right - "the doctors denied there was any chance that he would live" (in the long term). Just to set the record straight, we should list the differences here to the Achim derived story from various other biographies and websites:
Caroline: we got engaged, but because he was in such a bad state, the King was worried and said we were not to marry until he recovered.
Achim and successors: Because the King didn't like his bffs to marry, you had to be careful to ask for permission and use a good moment, so they kept their intention a secret until then.
Caroline: The doctors said he wouldn't recover in the long term anyway and he really wanted to marry me, so the King gave permission and we were married a bit more than a year after getting engaged with him being in the sickbed, he was that ill.
Achim and successors: Fredersdorf got sick, pretended to be dying if he didn't marry Caroline, got permission from Fritz and immediately married her within 24 hours of getting the permission, upon which he recovered.
This has become quite a different story!
Also, help me out with that sentence: I can't tell if she's saying Fredersdorf was in Fritz's favor when he died??? or if "in der Gnade seines grossen Königs" has to do with God. (God or Fritz, easy to confuse. :P)
Truth, hence my letting Heinrich use the "Allmighty" designation. :) But she definitely means Fritz. (So there, Wikipedia and Fahlenkamp!) "Der große König" was NOT how Rococo people talked about God.
Re: "Anekdoten, die wir erlebten und hörten"
Date: 2021-07-25 09:59 am (UTC)Not that I doubted it, but I still love it when the dates line up this way. And I continue to be glad that Lehndorff gives us so much background and additional info and everyone and everything (except Katte :P), allowing for a much denser tapestry of events.
"Vollziehung der Ehe" is "consumation of marriage"
You know, I certainly know that turn of phrase, but still didn't immediately make the connection. Still, fascinating that this was a topic and the reason Fritz gave.
As I said above, I love that we have a first-hand account from Caroline's perspective here, and yeah, I agree with you guys that one can easily see how and why the dramatized story developed, but damn, that's quite a difference and I have to say, for our purposes, the truth is much more fun IMO.
Re: "Anekdoten, die wir erlebten und hörten"
Date: 2021-07-25 11:20 am (UTC)Lehndorff: He's from the Family Of Evil Bridestealers, and also: *waves TEAM KEITH banner*
Still, fascinating that this was a topic and the reason Fritz gave.
I was wondering how Achim knew his grandmother remained a virgin during her Frederdorf marriage before reading her own quote on it. And doesn't it say a lot about the difference between the 18th and the 19th century, both that it was discussed before hand and that she later felt free to talk about it? 19th century historians and bowlderizers would have had the vapeurs.
I have to say, for our purposes, the truth is much more fun IMO.
Absolutely. Everyone comes out of it way better in this version from our Fritz/Fredersdorf shipping pov!
Re: "Anekdoten, die wir erlebten und hörten"
From:Re: "Anekdoten, die wir erlebten und hörten"
Date: 2021-07-25 01:13 pm (UTC)It was neat! I continue to be delighted at what a great team we make, in which I turn up the anecdotes volume and tell you about it, and you read it and tell us all the neat anecdotes in it and tell us that there's a life by Caroline Daum, and then I find it and you help me read it! :D
We did not, but like I said, it fits with Lehndorff on December 15th 1752
Exactly, I had double-checked it when doing this write-up yesterday.
Definitely the sex part. "Vollziehung der Ehe" is "consumation of marriage".
Aahhh, yes, of course, I should have thought of that. (Oh, wait, I was super distracted and rushed because of reasons.) I just figured it was sex because that was a common thing to worry about.
I'm a bit sceptical about the medical part of these supposed Fritzian concerns, given that in the one and only letter to Fredersdorf where he mentions the upcoming marriage, he also makes that "take a hot hunter or page with you" joke.
I had the same reaction! (There were many things I wanted to say yesterday and did not.) I suspect Fritz is actually medically concerned, but then using the medical part to justify his main concern, which is, "I'm still your top priority, right? Right???"
No, you're reading it right - "the doctors denied there was any chance that he would live" (in the long term).
Awesome, thanks.
This has become quite a different story!
Indeed! But the interesting part is that the individual elements are all there, even if the way they're put together completely contradicts the later version of the story. I did wonder briefly if maybe Fritz gave his permission (the second time) on December 19, 1753, but no, his "take a hot hunter or page with you" letter is from "around the beginning of November 1753." Incidentally, Richter gives the marriage date as December 30, not December 20, citing the church book in the Potsdam Garrison Church, and Fahlenkamp agrees. Our chronology says December 23!! Which is from Wikipedia, no citation. (This is what I mean by constantly hitting different dates for the same event.) (Fontane of course gives 1750, but we know that's way off.)
The 20th could be a typo, or the 30th could be a typo/misreading that Fahlenkamp copied from Richter.
(God or Fritz, easy to confuse. :P)
Truth, hence my letting Heinrich use the "Allmighty" designation. :)
Heee, that was hilarious. :D
But she definitely means Fritz. (So there, Wikipedia and Fahlenkamp!)
Aha! That was my first reading (and "so there!" my first reaction), but then I started second-guessing and thinking maybe I just have Wikipedia and Fahlenkamp on the brain because I've been doing some serious research on that subject in the last month.
So...is she being defensive because when she was writing, there were already claims about him not having been in favor? Because that seems like an interesting thing to interject into his death description. "Fredersdorf was Fritz's favorite, so Fritz was worried about his health and didn't want to let us get married" is an important part of the plot; "Fredersdorf was in favor when he died!" is...lacking context unless there are already rumors going around.
(Deschamps accuses Fredersdorf of embezzlement, but never actually says he was out of favor, as far as I can tell, and indeed implies quite the opposite (based on my memory of Selena's summary of the editor's summary of a text none of us have read)).
Btw, if it were only Caroline, I'd have to point out her possible bias, but we have so much other evidence that while this isn't the strongest piece, it's definitely good to add to the picture.
"Der große König" was NOT how Rococo people talked about God.
Interesting, didn't know that! Thanks.
Re: "Anekdoten, die wir erlebten und hörten"
Date: 2021-07-25 01:24 pm (UTC)LOL, yes, that's what I figured, too.
The 20th could be a typo, or the 30th could be a typo/misreading that Fahlenkamp copied from Richter.
Either is possible, argh. At least it can't be another case of Gregorian vs Julian calendar, since Protestant Brandenburg had adopted the Gregorian Calendar by then, too.
So...is she being defensive because when she was writing, there were already claims about him not having been in favor? Because that seems like an interesting thing to interject into his death description. "Fredersdorf was Fritz's favorite, so Fritz was worried about his health and didn't want to let us get married" is an important part of the plot; "Fredersdorf was in favor when he died!" is...lacking context unless there are already rumors going around.
There were. You're forgetting Glasow! Lehndorff definitely is under the impression Glasow was one of the reaosns why Fredersdorf quit his job and thinks Fritz traded one for the other in his journals. Henckel von Donnersmarck also thinks Glasow "got rid of Fredersdorf" on his rise to power. Both are contemporay writers writing independently from each other in their journals. Which means there must have been a rumor that Fredersdorf either quit because of Glasow or got traded in or both, and I suspect that's what Caroline is argueing against implicitly, saying, no, he died very much in favor.
Re: "Anekdoten, die wir erlebten und hörten"
From:Re: "Anekdoten, die wir erlebten und hörten"
Date: 2021-07-27 05:03 am (UTC):D That was awesome!
"Der große König" was NOT how Rococo people talked about God.
Ha, good to know! I was wondering about that too, once mildred brought it up :)
Re: "Anekdoten, die wir erlebten und hörten"
Date: 2021-07-25 02:20 pm (UTC)Oh, Selena, since you're always interested in Fredersdorf's marriage and the Voltaire explosion, I was updating our chronology just now, and I give you this juxtaposition:
1752, October 15: Fritz publishes Lettre d‘un académicien de Berlin à un académicien de Paris, defending Maupertuis and trashing Voltaire.
1752, October 29: Fredersdorf and Caroline von Daum get engaged.
Mondieu!
Date: 2021-07-25 02:24 pm (UTC)Re: "Anekdoten, die wir erlebten und hörten"
Date: 2021-07-25 01:08 am (UTC)if Caroline, who loved her brother, hadn't insisted that she then wouldn't accept her inheritance, either, and reconciled him with Mom.
Go Caroline! (Also totally fits the pic I have of her from what you've told us,
When autumn arrived, their hearts grew heavy when they saw fruits lying on the ground and weren't allowed to touch them. They then thought of some artifice, like saying: "a pretty colorful stone, perhaps father's cufflink!" and adroitly hid the fruit beneath their skirts in order to eat it in the restroom later in secret.
Aw MAN. This is both a charming and a heartbreaking story.
It's strange that my grandmother claimed that actually, there had been only one whore in Potsdam at that time, who'd been called Putzers Hanne, but maybe she didn't know the other ones.
Heh. Is it possible Achim is being sarcastic here? It just seems a little... disingenuous to me :)
But strange fate! Her affection was won by a man who was already really ill and suffering from hemorhoids, though he was otherwise very handsome
<3
probably his tall figure caused his being drafted into service under the old King.
LOL Achim's headcanon is my headcanon
that is to say, FW totally hit on Fredersdorfshe did not want to share them and burned them with the same amazement that she'd been delighted by them in her youth.
Aw Caroline! I do understand why people burn their letters on a personal level (I don't think I'd want anyone to find the letters I wrote when I was a silly teenager) but of course it's sad from a historical standpoint :P
a marriage in which my grandmother lived as a virgin under a thousand worries but also with blissful freedom, mutual agreement and inner cheerfulness for three years after which he died after much sicknesss, so that after her own death she only wanted to rest at the side of this most beloved of her three husbands in her coffin.
Illness made the poor man often irritable, but she swore that his general kindness and repentance over each outburst had her always reconciled. He tried to find all kinds of diversions for her so that she wouldn't suffer from the sitting in a sick room, and made her go on long rides so she'd have distractions.
This is all so fascinating and so sweet and Fredersdorf was clearly THE BEST <3
Re: "Anekdoten, die wir erlebten und hörten"
Date: 2021-07-25 06:09 am (UTC)What I thought. Sheesh, Daum, FW ISN'T whom you should have taken as a role model when educating your children.
Heh. Is it possible Achim is being sarcastic here? It just seems a little... disingenuous to me :)
He might well have been. He was certainly capable of it; his and Clemens Brentano's correspondence is full of sarcasm. And let's not forget, he's writing in early 19th century Prussia, where you do not critique any of the Hohenzollern.
Aw Caroline! I do understand why people burn their letters on a personal level (I don't think I'd want anyone to find the letters I wrote when I was a silly teenager) but of course it's sad from a historical standpoint :P
Yes to both. It's noteworthy that she didn't burn the Fritz letters, mind. Perhaps because she thought the later were of historical value since they were by Fritz (and showed how much her favourite husband had meant to him), while her own love letters were to her something strictly personal and no one else's business.
Re: "Anekdoten, die wir erlebten und hörten"
Date: 2021-07-25 01:42 pm (UTC)Same! I want all my private letters, fic drafts, browser history, etc. deleted, but I extremely want those of historical figures and authors to survive!
LOL Achim's headcanon is my headcanon that is to say, FW totally hit on Fredersdorf
LOL! Remember, I still want that Christmas 1732 outtake where FW paints him! Would that we had known when you were writing that fic!
FW aside, I thought we had determined that Fredersdorf *was*
dubconneddrafted because of his height? Even below the Potsdam Giants cutoff, regimental commanders had their quotas to meet, and there were height requirements (hence the Fritz/Heinrich conflict later on).This is all so fascinating and so sweet and Fredersdorf was clearly THE BEST <3
YES YES YES
Re: "Anekdoten, die wir erlebten und hörten"
Date: 2021-07-25 09:51 am (UTC)You can see why Caroline was loaded as an heiress.
I already meant to comment on this last post, but while I knew about the money, I was surprised to learn that her father was such a big deal and occasionally attended the tobacco parliament. Given how much writer Achim dramatized the marriage story, though, I feel like we should take the FW story with a grain of salt as well? Not that I can't see him saying/doing all that, it certainly fits his personality and his paranoia re: women, but still.
That said, the way Achim reports the anecdotes from his grandma's childhood is very lively, but also reminds me of the way my grandmothers used to tell stories from theirs - not in content, but in style (including the prostitute bit, funny enough, down to the way of mentioning names).
she did not want to share them and burned them
Nooooo. I mean, I get it, but still!
I have seen a painting of her in her riding dress, it was a half male outfit in green, wiht a female skirt and a three point hat. She also rode like a man.
I'd love to see this painting, sounds pretty badass...
with the most enlightened mind
Which I suspect in large part means his opinion on women and their role, given everything we've now learned about Caroline and their relationship. But I also like it as part of the bigger picture, being close to someone like Fritz and even a member of the freemasons.
Re: "Anekdoten, die wir erlebten und hörten"
Date: 2021-07-25 11:46 am (UTC)Indeed! I so glad it survives, and I guess I now have to look up Clara von Armin's memoirs as well, since the magazine Mildred linked says she decribes how the family unearthed Caroline's account in the 1920s.
Given how much writer Achim dramatized the marriage story, though, I feel like we should take the FW story with a grain of salt as well? Not that I can't see him saying/doing all that, it certainly fits his personality and his paranoia re: women, but still.
Oh absolutely. Just because it's ic doesn't mean it has to be literally true, plus Achim is bound to have read some anecdote collections and memoirs featuring FW being, welll, FW, which could have become jumbled in his mind with his grandmother's tale. This said, there's a footnote from the editor to the "whore, whore!" story saying: "Compare the contemporary anecdote of the encounter between the King and a "well dressed woman" in the park of Charlottenburg: "She attracted his attention, and he pushed his horse thusly in her direction that she was bound to come across his path. The monarch in general did not have a good opinion of any women of this kind, especially if they were dressed up more than usual. When he came closer, he noticed, as he would later admit himself, that she was of more than common beauty, but this even contributed to his being strengthened in his bias against all women. After he had asked her regarding her name and station, which was one of middle class burgherdom, his generally adopted principles caused the statement against her that she surely had to be a whore." (Karakterzüge aus dem Leben König Friedrich Wilhelm I. nebst verschiedenen Anekdoten. Erste Sammlung, Berlin 1787, S. 129 - 131.)
Conclusion: Maybe Achim did his exaggerating thing again, and the story his grandmother told also only referenced one "whore!" occasion, not FW doing this every Sunday, but I can well believe it happened.
I'd love to see this painting, sounds pretty badass...
I'm afraid it's lost, otherwise they surely would have had it at Zernikow. The only portrait of Caroline I've ever seen there or anywhere else is the one showing her as an old woman. Which I suspect is the result of the complete decline and lack of attention to Zernikow from the mid 19th century onwards, alas.
Fredersdorf's enlightened mind: "mit dem aufgeklärtesten Verstande, Fähigkeiten und Munterkeit des Geistes begabet" is the original phrase, and I like it for the same reasons you do, plus remember Richter (and some others) snobbishly declaring that Fredersdorf couldn't have possibly been of any interest as a person since he was just a dumb servant (thus is only interest lies in the emotion he evoked in Fritz)? Even if you ascribe rosy glasses to Caroline, who is speaking restrospectively about a man who has been dead for decades and symbolizes to her the happiest years of her life as a wife: she is writing this at a time of her life when she's known plenty of other people to compare Fredersdorf with. She's not writing as the young woman newly in love, but as an old one who has lived in Berlin when a great many of the clever spirits of the age did, she has a basis of comparison. Also, what does come across is that he wanted her to be happy in this marriage, not just play nurse to him and deliver her fortune to him. Which puts him a head of a great many husbands of the age!
Re: "Anekdoten, die wir erlebten und hörten"
Date: 2021-07-25 02:06 pm (UTC)*nod* Yes, that makes perfect sense. Note also this passage from Voltaire's memoirs:
After Frederic-William had reviewed his giants, he used to walk through the town, and every body fled before- him full speed. If he happened to meet a woman, he would demand why she staid idling her time in the streets, and exclaim, ('Go--get home with you, you lazy hussy; an honest woman has no business over the threshold of her own door;' which
remonstrance he would accompany with a hearty box on the ear, a kick in the groin (!), or a few well applied strokes on the shoulders with his cane.
Also, what does come across is that he wanted her to be happy in this marriage, not just play nurse to him and deliver her fortune to him. Which puts him a head of a great many husbands of the age!
Indeed! <3 Fredersdorf
Also, from your first post:
very vivid intense blue eyes
Fredersdorf has a type? ;)
Old Blue Eyes
Date: 2021-07-25 02:17 pm (UTC)Re: Old Blue Eyes
From:Re: Old Blue Eyes
From:Re: "Anekdoten, die wir erlebten und hörten"
Date: 2021-07-27 05:10 am (UTC)Yes exactly! <33 Heck, that puts him above some husbands in this age, for that matter :P
Re: "Anekdoten, die wir erlebten und hörten"
Date: 2021-07-25 01:23 pm (UTC)(Methinks we know where the "freedom" part in Caroline's characterisation of her first marriage comes from.
Indeed. I totally see Fredersdorf telling her her take rides and get away from the sickbed being the favorite husband. <3
her brother. Who scandalized Dad and Mom by becoming a Catholic and moving to Italy later. Mom would have disinherited him if Caroline, who loved her brother, hadn't insisted that she then wouldn't accept her inheritance, either, and reconciled him with Mom.
What a great story! And definitely a strong-willed woman.
My grandmother in her love believed him to be the most intelligent and wittiest man of the world.
Aww, I kind of ship these two. (Thanks to you, Selena.)
In her old age she read their exchanged love letters again, and be it that she had been aged too much, or that she did not want us to know and did not see the suitability of the jokes anymore, she did not want to share them and burned them with the same amazement that she'd been delighted by them in her youth.
Gah! Like everyone else, I understand, but what a loss.
Illness made the poor man often irritable, but she swore that his general kindness and repentance over each outburst had her always reconciled.
Aww, it's nice to see a three-dimensional picture of Fredersdorf. I can tell you that I'm not at my best when I'm sick, and I definitely remember telling the nurse after my major surgery that if I was cranky with her, it wasn't because she wasn't doing a great job.
As a proof of her fitness may serve the fact she often rode to Berlin and back from Potsdam in one day, at a time when this way was much longer and very uneven, so really lasted eight miles.
Reminder for
I have seen a painting of her in her riding dress, it was a half male outfit in green, wiht a female skirt and a three point hat. She also rode like a man.
Go her! And go Fredersdorf letting her ride and ride astride. As we've discussed, women riding in Germany was not really a thing, which is why young Anhalt Sophie was so impressed when she saw Countess Bentinck doing it, and why Wilhelmine had the whole Scooby Doo episode, and why MT had to learn for her coronation.
Blessed freedom indeed!
Re: "Anekdoten, die wir erlebten und hörten"
Date: 2021-07-25 03:11 pm (UTC)Spreading the joy of multishipping is my mission in this fandom, along with spreading the interest in the ladies connected to the guys and in sibling interaction of all kind. :)
Aww, it's nice to see a three-dimensional picture of Fredersdorf. I can tell you that I'm not at my best when I'm sick, and I definitely remember telling the nurse after my major surgery that if I was cranky with her, it wasn't because she wasn't doing a great job.
*nods* Absolutely. He wasn't perfect, and I think anyone who has been sick, and also who has been close to a sick person, can relate. That this is included in Achim's recollections of his Grandmother's stories along with the praise also gives me confidence that by and large, he's telling the truth as he knows it (dramatizations not withstanding).
Potsdam-Berlin distance: giving the rapid growth of Berlin through the 19th and then the 20th century, I bet it was the larger distance back then?
Re: "Anekdoten, die wir erlebten und hörten"
Date: 2021-07-25 03:23 pm (UTC)I took the growth into account and used landmarks that we know existed then: Sanssouci and the Berliner Dom. That said, I don't know what her exact start and end points were, so it could be the outskirts.
(I mean, this map is from twenty years later, but I can't imagine that the roads changed all that much in between.)
It sounds like he's saying the roads *did* change. One thing that occurs to me: given the amount of water in the area, could there have been a body of water or marshy ground that you had to go around in the 1750s and could go straight over by road in the 1770s?
Re: "Anekdoten, die wir erlebten und hörten"
From:Re: "Anekdoten, die wir erlebten und hörten"
Date: 2021-07-25 03:14 pm (UTC)Reminder for cahn that the German mile of the 18th century was approximately 5 of our miles
For illustration see this map from 1775, which shows the roads between Potsdam and Berlin at the time and includes a handy mile indicator. It's indeed roughly four miles one-way, so I'm not quite sure what he's saying either, as the round-trip was eight miles. (I mean, this map is from twenty years later, but I can't imagine that the roads changed all that much in between.)
ETA: Possibly like Selena said - expansion of both towns led to shrinking distance between the outskirts and that's why he's clarifying the distance. But he definitely means round-trip then.
Re: "Anekdoten, die wir erlebten und hörten"
Date: 2021-07-27 05:12 am (UTC)Seconded!
Aww, it's nice to see a three-dimensional picture of Fredersdorf. I can tell you that I'm not at my best when I'm sick, and I definitely remember telling the nurse after my major surgery that if I was cranky with her, it wasn't because she wasn't doing a great job.
Yesssss this!
Reminder for [personal profile] cahn that the German mile of the 18th century was approximately 5 of our miles, so for "eight miles" read "forty miles."
Oh, whoa, thanks! Yeah, that is definitely a rather bigger deal.
Re: "Anekdoten, die wir erlebten und hörten"
Date: 2021-07-25 01:43 pm (UTC)I see that Putzers Hanne was the Belle Watling of Potsdam! :P
Re: "Anekdoten, die wir erlebten und hörten"
Date: 2021-07-25 02:58 pm (UTC)